Skip to comments.Loughner Acted, from His Perspective, in a Moral Fashion
Posted on 01/24/2011 9:49:07 AM PST by Cardhu
Most saw the Jan. 8 shooting of Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords and 19 others in Arizona as a product of insanity. But assassination researcher Manfred Schneider told SPIEGEL that the presumed gunman, Jared Lee Loughner, did not act irrationally. Rather, his crime resulted from "hyper-rationality."
SPIEGEL: Mr. Schneider, on Jan. 8 in Arizona, 22-year-old Jared Lee Loughner shot Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords in the head at close range and killed six people. While the world searches for explanations, you write, in your recent book "Das Attentat" ("The Assassination"), that an assassin like Loughner is not crazy but the product of hyper-rationality. What does this mean?
Schneider: Every assassin is a perceptive observer and interpreter of signs and events. For him, nothing happens by accident. He scrutinizes the world in search of hostile intentions, and he imagines conspiracies everywhere. To us, the outcome seems insane. Yet logic and rationality are key components in the paranoid suppositions arrived at by the assassin. Paranoia is not irrationality but hyper-rationality. Loughner is a very typical example.
SPIEGEL: As if he had read your book.
Schneider: Yes, almost.
SPIEGEL: What's so typical?
Schneider: First of all, from his subjective perspective, Loughner acted in an extremely moral fashion. The paranoiac is saving the world from a threat. He disconnects his system of interpretation from everything else and, within this system, reestablishes an order that is no longer frightening for him. Second, Loughner left behind messages, which is always part of a rational assassination plot. It would seem to be an act that he had spent a long time thinking about and preparing. Third, it was a political act. In the assassin, mania, which can be expressed in endless ways, takes on a political form.
(Excerpt) Read more at spiegel.de ...
This is quite a long interview but well worth the time to read it.
Meanwhile, the only way any good can come from this tragedy is if people take note that the victims voting record gives good insight into how the phony blue dog Rats operate.
They will find two or so issues that your District really cares about (typically 2nd Amendment and national defense) and vote conservative on those issues.
BUT on other issues which are damaging to America (Dream Act, Obamacare, abortion, unemployment extension, etc.) they will vote in a block with the rest of the Democrat party.
This is how the Democrat Party has suckered American voters for years and it is one big reason they have maintained majorities when they should not have.
Unfortunately too many voters focus on their one hot-button issue and dont look any farther. Perhaps this will change in the aftermath of this tragedy
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2011 5:32:27 AM by icwhatudo
Here are Caitie Parker's (a former friend of the shooter) original responses to 3 different Twitter posters (the 'at' symbol @ = To: _______ )
(ABC Good Morning America video at link)
Zach Osler: [pp] Zeitgeist Movement had a PROFOUND effect on shooter and how he saw the world
The Zeitgeist Movement is basically a global Marxism one:
Concepts advocated by the Zeitgeist Movement
* Management of the Earth's Natural Resources: Once surveyed, the Earth's natural resources will no longer be privately owned. They will be managed according to general sustainability principles of preservation, recycling and optimization.
* No Money, Barter, Trade or Property: The monetary value of commodities does not represent the actual physical supply of natural resources, or their utilitarian value, which is integral to the success of the type of sustainable global society that the Zeitgeist Movement advocates. Income is a requirement for individuals to sustain life in a monetary system, so this in turn creates the need for commodities to be continuously bought and sold and for goods to be continuously produced, in order to make sure that the operation of social functions is maintained. This, combined with competition over market share, creates an abundance of goods that usually exceeds the demand for them, which in turn depletes natural resources and may create excessive waste.
Furthermore, the profit motive inherent in a monetary system, creates an incentive to increase profits regardless of the impact on human beings or the environment. When labor is displaced or outsourced, it either removes a laborer's source of sustenance, or takes advantage of inexpensive laborers. Certain manufacturers and corporations have been noted to contaminate the environment by dumping their by-products and waste materials, instead of disposing of them properly, in order to save money. Other manufacturers have been known to take advantage of a process called planned obsolescence in order to increase sales of their products over time. With universal access to goods and services provided by a sustainable means of production based on resource availability, optimization and preservation, these problems of a monetary economy can be overcome.
* Automation: Machine automation is more productive than human labor and replaces the need for people to perform repetitive and tedious tasks.
* Technological Unification of the Earth: Globally networked technological infrastructure is required to monitor planetary resources in real time, and theoretically make the most efficient use of them in solving planetary problems.
* Scientific Methodology: Decision making regarding the methods of production, what goods and services are to be provided, city planning and resource optimization, preservation and recycling will be arrived at by analysing relevant trends and data, via use of the scientific method.
* Sustainable City Systems: Utilizing a systemic approach for a sustainable global society, city systems may act as microcosm to the global network of technological infrastructure. The city system can incorporate all manufacturing, goods and services that people will use on a daily basis within the city limits. The city system may also utilize a cybernetic central computer to monitor energy and resource supply, usage and other relevant data in real time, relaying this information to other city systems that make up the macrocosm of the technologically unified globe.
No one (almost no one) ever thinks of what they do as evil.
The Nazis thought they were great guys, doing good for the world.
I only read the excerpt. Seems like the “expert” is saying that, within the crazed paranoiac schizo system this guy dreamed up, all was logical (to him).
Maybe, but the perp is sorely lacking a sense of right and wrong if he can concoct a self-consistent internal world where the solution is taking someone out at close range in a surprise attack.
Sometimes governments decide that assassination is good to achieve a specific goal. This idea is usually tested and checked by more than one person before orders are given, some sense and balance added.
The article reminds me of “Don’t Take Me Alive” by Steely Dan: “I hear in my insides the mechanized hum of another world, where no sun is shining, no red lights flashing”
Joe Stack (IRS plane crasher) sums up his manifesto with this, a popular Karl Marx quote and a stab at Capitalism...
The communist creed:
From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
The capitalist creed:
From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed.
-Joe Stack (1956-2010)
Full text here: (CNN PDF file)
"The woman accused of killing three colleagues at the University of Alabama in Huntsville [Amy Bishop] was a suspect in a 1993 attempted mail bombing, according to a report by The Boston Globe.
The report broke the day after it was learned that Bishop fatally shot her brother in Braintree in 1986. ..."
"A family source said Bishop, a mother of four children - the youngest a third-grade boy - was a far-left political extremist who was "obsessed" with President Obama to the point of being off-putting."--Boston Herald, February 15, 2010
'Oddball' portrait of Amy Bishop emerges:
Unabomber essay urges attacks on 'techno-industrial system'
July 27, 2002 | By Dan Eggen, Dominic Gates, Washington Post
In an article published this spring by Green Anarchy, a radical environmental newsletter, [unabomber Ted] Kaczynski calls on revolutionaries to "eliminate the entire techno-industrial system" by "hitting where it hurts" and disparages the activities of most radicals as "pointless." ..."
The fall 2001 issue of Green Anarchy published a letter from Kaczynski complaining that Subcomandante Marcos, leader of the Zapatista rebels in Chiapas, Mexico, was insufficiently pure as a revolutionary because he advocates bringing water and electricity to peasants....
The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (El Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional) is an anarcho communist army that is based in Mexico, mainly the poorest state in Mexico, Chiapas. In 1994, January 1st, they started their revolution and it has been increasingly successful throughout the years. Today, they are attempting non-violent struggles because the people told them too they are truly an army of the people. However, both the people and their army are realizing how unsuccessful that tactic is.
Their ideology, Zapatismo, is a mixture of indigenous teachings, autonomism, anarchism and communism. Although other revolutions are going on in the world (like the Southern African anarcho communist movement), the Zapatista revolution was deemed the first modern revolution of our time and its bringing hope to people not only in Mexico, but around the world.
From the Wall Street Journal
NOVEMBER 24, 2007
Oswald was a dedicated communist who had defected to the Soviet Union in 1959 out of disgust with American capitalism. After becoming disillusioned with Soviet life, he returned to the U.S. in 1962. In early 1963, he bought a scoped rifle through the mail and soon used it to fire a shot (which missed) at retired general Edwin Walker, the head of the John Birch Society in Dallas. In the summer of 1963, Oswald was active in street demonstrations in support of Castro. In September 1963, he visited the Soviet and Cuban embassies in Mexico City seeking a travel visa that would allow him to travel to Cuba.
Oswald was among the radicals of the time who saw Third World revolutionaries like Castro as the wave of the communist future. He was well aware of Kennedy's efforts to overthrow Castro's regime. As a Senate investigative committee suggested in 1975, Oswald shot Kennedy to interrupt his administration's plans to assassinate Castro or to overthrow his regime in Cuba.
Ignoring Oswald's communist links, journalists and political leaders quickly claimed the president was a martyr to civil rights. Earl Warren said that Kennedy had "suffered martyrdom as a result of the hatred and bitterness that has been injected into the life of our nation by bigots." Martin Luther King said the assassination had to be viewed against the backdrop of violence against civil rights marchers in the South. James Reston wrote in the New York Times that "something in the nation itself, some strain of madness and violence, had destroyed the highest symbol of law and order."
The consensus opinion was that Kennedy was a victim of hate and bigotry, a casualty of his support for civil rights. The Cold War and Kennedy's ongoing feud with Castro were rarely mentioned as factors behind the assassination. The reasons? Mrs. Kennedy wanted her husband remembered as a modern-day Abraham Lincoln. Lyndon Johnson feared complicating relations with the Soviet Union. Liberals feared a replay of the McCarthy period, when the Wisconsin senator inflamed public opinion about fears of domestic communism.
The Left likes moral fashions which can change as easily as a Justin Beiber t-shirt.
The ends do NOT justify the means to a moral person.
This Psych loser needs to study up on morality.
Yes, indeed. Obama and his communist revolutionary, domestic terrorist friends fancy themselves "intellectuals"....
The Center for Public Intellectuals & The University of Illinois-Chicago (UIC)
April 19th-20th, 2002, Conference
[Participants include: William/Bill Ayers, Bernardine Dohrn, Sen Barack Obama]
April 19th-20th, 2002
Chicago Illini Union
828 S. Wolcott
This conference is part of the Center's mission of helping to create a more engaged civil society, working towards social change, fostering coalitions between theorists and activists, and combating anti-intellectualism in contemporary culture. It will be both a celebration of ideas and a rigorous examination of the roles and responsibilities that intellectuals play in society.
I. Why Do Ideas Matter? (a keynote panel)
We introduce the meta theme of the conference by hearing success stories from diverse voices discussing their experiences intervening intellectually.
Timuel Black, Chicago activist; Prof. Emeritus, City Colleges of Chicago
Lonnie Bunch, President, Chicago Historical Society
Bernardine Dohrn, Northwestern University Law School, Children and Family Justice Center
Gerald Graff, UIC, College of Liberal Arts & Sciences
Richard Rorty, Stanford University, Philosophy
III. Lunch and Public Encounters
Alternative breakout tours led by Chicago activists. Tours of Bronzeville and other communities, and visits to organizations that are working on partnering theorists with activists.
IV. Intellectuals in Times of Crisis
Experiences and applications of intellectual work in urgent situations.
William Ayers, UIC, College of Education; author of Fugitive Days
Douglass Cassel, Northwestern University, Center for International Human Rights
Cathy Cohen, University of Chicago, Political Science
Salim Muwakkil, Chicago Tribune; In These Times
Barack Obama, Illinois State Senator
Barbara Ransby, UIC, African-American Studies (moderator)
The Center for Public Intellectuals
University of Illinois-Chicago (UIC):
"Dig It. First they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them, they even shoved a fork into a victims stomach! Wild!"
-Weather Underground leader and wife of Bill Ayers, Bernardine Dohrn ("intellectual"), referring to the Manson murders
Article: Allies in War -by David Horowitz
FrontPageMagazine.com | Monday, September 17, 2001
"Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, kill your parents, that's where it's really at"
--Bill Ayers ("intellectual") (1970), quoted in New York Times, September 11, 2001:
Article: "No Regrets for a Love Of Explosives; In a Memoir of Sorts, a War Protester Talks of Life With the Weathermen"
"It was at the Chicago home of [Bill] Ayers and [Bernardine] Dohrn that ["intellectual"] Obama, then an up-and-coming 'community organizer,' had his political coming out party in 1995. Not content with this rite of passage in Lefty World where unrepentant terrorists are regarded as progressive luminaries, still working 'only to educate' both Obamas tended to the relationship with the Ayers."
Article: The Company He Keeps:
Meet Obamas circle: The same old America-hating Left
He was a pothead, lazy *ss, leftwing nutcase. Go over to DU and you can meet a few more of his type.
The real cause of the Arizona murders is the culture that has been created in America due to the 60s counter-culture and sexual revolution movements that still persist today.
People are taught in this culture to deny virtue and deny God and to be free-spirits and experiment with different value systems. They then go on to form perverted identities with a distorted sense of morality and virtue.
Our culture has no limits anymore in regards to how it denies virtue and how it perverts morality. In our media the violence is extreme, the sexual perversion is extreme, the attacks on traditional morality are also extreme. And all of this is being progressively targeted at younger and younger children all of the time.
Many murderous killers such as this kid have even been telling us that themselves. This kid talked about how society was using mind control. Manson wore it on his sleeve even and preached that our own children were going to turn against us.
I am not trying to claim that this kid was a victim because we still always make our own choices but it is the left-wing which is guilty by nature of the culture wars for this. They are promoting this type of perversion of morality thus creating a identity crisis for youth all of the time. Thus we have people such as this kid who form perverted or distorted identities.
Guys, relax. Doesn’t look like the interviewee is explaining it away. Looks like a decent piece.
Here's a screen grab from the Huffington Post. Note that two of the lunatic's favorite reads is The COMMUNIST MANIFESTO and MEIN KAMPF.
The National Socialist German Workers' Party (German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, abbreviated NSDAP), commonly known in English as the Nazi Party (from the German Nazi, abbreviated from the pronunciation of Nationalsozialist), was a political party in Germany between 1919 and 1945. It was known as the German Workers' Party (DAP) prior to a change of name in 1920.
National Health Care: Medicine in Germany 1918-1945 [Nazi health care]
Does the Modern Bureaucratization of Medicine Risk a Return to the Horrors of National Socialist Medicine?
by Marc S. Micozzi M.D.
Today we are concerned about issues such as doctor-assisted suicide, abortion, the use of fetal tissue, genetic screening, birth control and sterilization, health-care rationing and the ethics of medical research on animals and humans. These subjects are major challenges in both ethics and economics at the end of the twentieth century. But at the beginning of the twentieth century the desire to create a more scientific medical practice and research had already raised the issues of euthanasia, eugenics, and medical experimentation on human subjects. In addition, the increasing involvement of the German government in medical care and funding medical research established the government-medical complex that the National Socialists later used to execute their extermination policies. ..."
Here’s what I know: From my perspective, the electric chair acts with no moral quims, reservations, or hesitations....at all. =.=
You mean I posted all these barely known facts about this sick leftist SOB for nothing?
I thought so too.
Reminds me of Chesterton:
"The madman is not the man who has lost his reason. He is the man who has lost everything except his reason."
And sometimes extreme left groups like John Kerry's Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) plot to carry out political assassinations, like when they wanted to take out various senators who were in favor of winning the war.
The Vietnam Veterans Against the War:
Assassination Plot --was John Kerry at the meeting or not?
"Mr. Kerry denies being present at the November 12-15, 1971, meeting in Kansas City of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, and says he quit the group before the meeting. But according to the current head of Missouri Veterans for Kerry, Randy Barnes, Mr. Kerry, who was then 27, was at the meeting, voted against the plot, and then orally resigned from the organization.
Mr. Barnes was present as part of the Kansas City host chapter for the 1971 meeting and recounted the incident in a phone interview with The New York Sun this week.
In addition to Mr. Barness recollection placing Mr. Kerry at the Kansas City meeting, another Vietnam veteran who attended the meeting, Terry Du-Bose, said that Mr. Kerry was there.
There are at least two other independent corroborations that the "antiwar" group Vietnam Veterans Against the War, of which Mr. Kerry was the most prominent national spokesman, considered assassinating American political leaders who favored the war."
"Kerry has long been portrayed as not being at the Kansas City, Mo., meeting because Kerry recalled quitting the organization at an acrimonious July 1971 session, four months before the November meeting at which the assassination plot was discussed.
But last week, the Kerry campaign seemed to leave open the possibility that he had attended the November session, after historian Gerald Nicosia said he had found an FBI document that he said indicated that Kerry was there.
As a result of Nicosia's assertion, Kerry's campaign said in a statement that while Kerry did not remember being at the meeting, "If there are valid FBI surveillance reports from credible sources that place some of those disagreements in Kansas City, we accept that historical footnote in the account of his work to end the difficult and divisive war."..."
Schneider: Of course, it's absurd to assign the blame to Palin. But even without drawing paranoiac conclusions, one can immediately recognize a web of relationships into which the assassination fits and to which Loughner, the killer, consciously refers. And the fundamentalist Republic polemic is part of this context. Take, for example, the use of the term "mind control." This is the central, paranoiac concept of the American right, which assumes that the government controls the thoughts of citizens through language and the media. It's paradoxical for Palin to demand that we see the killings as an isolated incident, that is, a chance event. In doing so, she is suddenly abandoning the system of paranoia, with its accusations of mind control, that she and the Tea Party were more or less complicit in creating.
I went to their website...holy moley...if you dig deeper, prepare to be frightened...magritte
Doesn’t matter how logically you examine and analyze data if the data you input is inaccurate.
Conclusion... keep guns out of the hands of Vulcans.
June, 1970 -- Kerry joins Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), a national veterans group that is part of the Peoples Coalition for Peace and Justice. The PCPJ is a broad coalition of local and national organizations, including the Communist Party, USA, "committed to conducting demonstrations aimed at ending the war in Indochina, and poverty, racism and injustice at home." The VVAW, CCI and PCPJ all have headquarters at 156 Fifth Avenue in New York City. VVAW Executive Secretary Al Hubbard, a former Black Panther, is also on the coordinating committee of the PCPJ. Hubbard soon appoints Kerry to the VVAW's Executive Committee, bypassing the normal election process.
Fact: The Black Panthers were revolutionary communists...
From the Maoist Internationist Movement:
[1960s/original] Black Panther Party [BPP] Archives
From the article: REVOLUTIONARY HEROS
"On May 1st, May Day , the day of the gigantic Free Huey rally, two of Alioto's top executioners vamped on the brothers from the Brown Community who were attending to their own affairs. These brothers, who are endowed with the revolutionary spirit of the Black Panther Party defended themselves from the racist pig gestapo [i.e., the police].
Pig Joseph Brodnik received his just reward with a big hole in the chest. Pig Paul McGoran got his in the mouth which was not quite enough to off him.
The revolutionary brothers escaped the huge swarm of pigs with dogs, mace, tanks and helicopters, proving once again that "the spirit of the people is greater than the man's technology."
To these brothers the revolutionary people of racist America want to say, by your revolutionary deed you are heroes, and that you are always welcome to our camp."
Source: Maoist Internationist Movement
Article: REVOLUTIONARY HEROS (May 11, 1969):
November 22, 1970 -- During a fund-raising tour for GI deserters, Vietnam Veterans Against the War and the Black Panthers, Jane Fonda is quoted in the Detroit Free Press as telling a University of Michigan audience:
"I would think that if you understood what communism was, you would hope, you would pray on your knees that we would someday become communist," and "The peace proposal of the Viet Cong is the only honorable, just, possible way to achieve peace in Vietnam."
John Kerry and the VVAW--Hanoi's American Puppets?
"Two recently discovered documents captured from the Vietnamese communists during the Vietnam War strongly support the contention that a close link existed between the Hanoi regime and the Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) while John Kerry served as the group's leading national spokesman."
Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) Complete FBI files:
Please, not this again. It's just not true.
Can we agree war is a horrible means? Mass murder and destruction? Yet most sane people will agree that war is sometimes justified as a means to prevent a particularly horrible end. WWII, for instance.
Some ends are themselves evil and do not justify any means.
Some ends justify most means. Preventing Hitler from ruling the world, for example.
Most people would agree that harsh interrogation and even true tortuer are justified to save innocent lives.
Some means are not justified by any end, IMO. For example, mistreating or torturing an innocent family member of a terrorist. Even to save innocent lives.
So does the end justify the means?
Depends entirely on the end and the means involved.
The Left is continually changing the terms and usage of words to specifically dodge being called out for the anti-US a$$holes that they are.
Sticking with strictly historical verbiage, most Democrats today would be currently on trial for treason.
It is true.
The ends do not justify the means.
War is not an evil unto itself, provoking an unjust war is.
The Communists thought that mass murder was an acceptable price to pay for the ends of a Communist Paradise.
Most people in a Capitalist society don’t think mass murder is an acceptable price to pay to continue with our way of life - but luckily with Capitalism such is not a necessity - while with Communism it is.
Torture is not something the USA engages in, we use “harsh interrogation methods” - not torture.
The torture of an innocent would never be justified, whatever the “ends” you sought.
“Loughner Acted, from His Perspective, in a Moral Fashion”
This means alot coming from Germans.
The screamingputz is still at it; just noticed.
I’ve never had a Freeper stalker in all these years.
Not bad for having no idea what he’s mad at you about, but you did a good job. He’s amusing.
That's exactly the guy's point. To Loughner, what he did was utterly rational and a good thing.
This is a good thing, because it undercuts any notion of an insanity defense.
I heard a podcast one time where the guy was asking "Who was more evil, Alexander the Great or Hitler?" and his point was that, whatever crimes were committed, Hitler believed that he was doing good for the German people. There was an actual belief system, as horrifying as we find it. Alexander, on the other hand, appears to have tried to conquer most of the world for no other reason that his own personal glory, committing crimes on those he conquered that lacked only the industrial scale of the Nazis, such as massacring the male residents of any city that resisted him and selling the women and children into slavery.
And yet today, Hitler is considered the arch-villain of all time and Alexander is "the Great." Partly that's the result of the Romans, an aggressive people themselves, making Alexander their hero a few hundred years after his heyday. It makes you wonder what Hitler's image will be a thousand years from now.
Mmm...yeah. Of course, his perspective is at the very least deeply strange, if not technically insane.
Alexander’s policy of killing or enslaving the inhabitants of cities he conquered was pretty much standard practice in that period. It was done regularly by Greek cities against other Greek cities during the Peloponnesian War. However evil, it was not particularly associated with Alexander, except that he was better than that.
better than most.
There is little wrong with Loughner, besides the fact that he is a socipath. I do not buy the insanity schtick even for a moment.
This was not a crie of passion, it was a crime of premeditated,cold blooded murder.Sociopathic.
Evil is evil.
Kind of unrelated, but there is a Greek story, I think, to the effect that Alexander had a dream that (what he considered to be “a”) god appeared to him and told him that, if he spared a certain city when people came out to greet him wearing certain ceremonial dress and surrendered, that he (Alexander) would be permitted to conquer the known world.
Turns out the dress was the High Priest outfit for the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, they, too, had been told in a dream to ride out undefended and surrender with the gates of the city open.
Anyway, depsite Israel nominally siding with earlier enemies, Alxander did, inexplictedly, decline to attack Jerusalem, accepted their peaceful surrender, and let the Jews go about their business as a satelite nation of his.
I’ve heard a Jewish version of the same story.
Yes, he’s pretty funny. I am curious how long he will go on making a fool of himself.
Yeah, I’ve read similar versions. The fact is that Alexander was, generally speaking, pretty lenient toward cities that didn’t resist him, and he was hell on cities that did resist. And Jerusalem would have seen the examples of Tyre and Gaza before he showed up at their doorstep.
I get too many pings. What thread is he/she on?
Is this the burrito boy?
I can’t find the thread. He was posting stuff to himself.
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