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Canadian [Not Shown] Perplexed by High Cap Mags
The Truth About Guns ^ | 10 February, 2011 | Jim Sutherland

Posted on 02/11/2011 4:41:04 AM PST by marktwain

Now obviously I am an outsider when it comes to US gun issues. As a Canadian, I have a different perspective on the firearm debates, and some posters are right when they say that Canada is an over-regulated country-a nanny state with some restrictions on freedom of speech. Consequently some of the fight may have been beaten out of me because of my place of birth in a forgive-him-for he knows not what he-does (or says) kind of way. But the beauty of a Farago site is that even foreigners can enjoy a freedom of expression, as long as they don’t turn into name-calling a***oles. Anyway, the debate about mega-clips caught my attention. The concept of anybody outside of a war zone that actually needs a 30 round clip plumb evades me . . .

Sure I would like to be able to match capacity with a psycho with a big clip and an even bigger mentally unbalanced chip on his shoulder. That is a worst-case scenario that is a no-brainer. At a basic level, we are all survivalists in a fight or flight kind of way.

But the actual need for a giant clip is still a head-scratcher for me. Most of the posters on this site seem to be responsible and insightful gun owners. And I am not saying that simply because you are much better armed than me.

It also seems like most of you are pretty good with your weapons of choice. So why would you need a 30 round clip if your accuracy with a weapon would take out a bad guy in a regulation clip? My assumption is that most situations would not be against a small army of bad guys.

The answer seems to be that any ground given on gun issues is ground lost forever. The second answer seems to come from the Boy Scout mantra: Be prepared. Both answers have a certain degree of validity to them.

But if I saw a guy walking along with a 30 mag addition to his pistol, I would avoid that guy like a plague. That just seems like overkill to me in more than one sense.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: banglist; constitution; guns; magazine
There are a lot of thoughtful comments in response to this inquiry at the site.

My short response is: Sometimes the war zone comes to you; the government should not be deciding what you need; and there are many times when a 30 round magazine is very useful. The mere deterrent value alone is incredibly useful when faced with an unruly mob (such as in the Rodney King riots) or with multiple gang bangers.

1 posted on 02/11/2011 4:41:09 AM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain; Joe Brower
This kind of logic is going to appeal to at least 50 RINOs when the "Gabby Gifford law to prevent maniacs from buying massacre-maker-magazines" is finally put up for vote.

This will not happen until the MSM has done all of the heavy prep work, leading the sheeple to believe that anybody against the law is the evil spawn of mass-shooters Cho and Loughner.


2 posted on 02/11/2011 4:45:18 AM PST by Travis McGee (EnemiesForeignAndDomestic is now on Kindle.)
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To: marktwain

To the article author: Why do you need a computer keyboard to type? Why not an old-fashioned typewriter? Or, just a pencil and paper? Or, how about stone tablets and a chisel? I am SURE that such a regulation would NOT infringe on your right to free speech, would it? Why do you feel you NEED a computer, or the Internet, to communicate, my Canadian friend?


3 posted on 02/11/2011 4:46:08 AM PST by 2harddrive
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To: marktwain
My assumption is that most situations would not be against a small army of bad guys.

That assumption is likely to get the author killed some day.

4 posted on 02/11/2011 4:47:56 AM PST by edpc (It's Kräusened)
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To: marktwain
...the government should not be deciding what you need...

That part of your response sadly needs to be pounded into some people's heads when it comes to a ton of subjects!

5 posted on 02/11/2011 4:50:04 AM PST by LRS ("This is silly! It can't be! It can't be!!" "Oh yes it is! I said you wouldn't know the joint.")
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To: marktwain

The problem I have with large capacity magazine bans is they are worded for all guns, not just pistols. I only have 15 and 30 round magazines for my M1Carbine. My son only has 20 rounders for his FAL. I just bought 25 rounders for my MAS49/56 because they were more available and cheaper than the standard 10 rounders. I was looking to buy the new KelTec PMR30 that comes stock with a 30 round magazine. Many 22’s have over 10 round capacities.


6 posted on 02/11/2011 4:52:54 AM PST by Elderberry
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To: marktwain
"But the actual need for a giant clip is still a head-scratcher for me."

The basic disconnect....it's not about "need", it's about "freedom".

It matters not what the perceived need on the part of the "clip" owner is...even if it just not wanting to reload as often during target practice.

7 posted on 02/11/2011 4:56:45 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: marktwain

I am Canadian, and I think this author of this piece is a complete retard, if he doesn’t get it, then I can’t help. This is why I say Canada is a lost cause, people are all lost, I feel like I’m in an insane asylum. Folks I talk to everyday think our free healthcare is great, that government should pass more laws to ban phones (they are banning even talking on phones this summer in Alberta, and this is supposed to be Texas of the north). People just don’t get it, and it’s exasperating trying to explain it to them.


8 posted on 02/11/2011 5:00:02 AM PST by Bulwyf
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To: marktwain
Jim Sutherland, "So why would you need a 30 round clip?"

I don't need you to tell me what I need!
It's called a Bill of Rights, not a Bill of Needs.


9 posted on 02/11/2011 5:02:28 AM PST by jrushing (Anti-American-ProTerrorist-Coward-Fascist-Communist-Socialist-Democratic Party)
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To: marktwain

This isn’t an argument about reasonable restrictions on magazine capacity. The real question being asked by those who would limit magazine capacity is why don’t we just outlaw all firearms? Why do some want to limit magazine capacity? To reduce the carnage in a situation like Tucson? OK. Using their logic, if reducing the allowed capacity to twenty is good, wouldn’t a reduction to ten be better? Wouldn’t five be even better? How about none?


10 posted on 02/11/2011 5:03:32 AM PST by DugwayDuke
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To: marktwain

Some people would say that a single shot muzzleloader is sufficient because one properly placed shot will put down any attacker. The same sort of people like to point out that the entire population of the Earth could live in Texas or some other such nonsense.


11 posted on 02/11/2011 5:05:56 AM PST by RipSawyer (Trying to reason with a liberal is like teaching algebra to a tomcat.)
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To: marktwain
The concept of anybody outside of a war zone that actually needs a 30 round clip plumb evades me . . .

First, it's not a matter of need.

Secondly, the fact that a concept "evades" the writer has absolutely zero to do with the concept's validity.

What a stupid ass.

12 posted on 02/11/2011 5:09:04 AM PST by SIDENET ("If that's your best, your best won't do." -Dee Snider)
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To: Elderberry
The problem I have with large capacity magazine bans is they are worded for all guns, not just pistols.

The problem I have with this whole argument is that the government shouldn't be deciding what we "need".

You shouldn't have to make a case for why you bought certain mags for your MAS49/56. It's nobody's business but your own. Similarly, I shouldn't have to make the case for why I CHOOSE to buy the 32-round mag for my Glock 19.

13 posted on 02/11/2011 5:16:10 AM PST by SIDENET ("If that's your best, your best won't do." -Dee Snider)
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To: RipSawyer
Well, I will say it: One properly placed shot will take down any attacker... But I do believe you should be able to kill as many attackers as you wish without having a mandated reload. Heck, I feel that you should be allowed to carry a fully automatic belt-fed M-249 or M-240 for personal protection if you feel that is what you need.

Regards,
Raven6

14 posted on 02/11/2011 5:18:11 AM PST by Raven6 (The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either.)
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To: Wonder Warthog
The basic disconnect....it's not about "need", it's about "freedom".

Exactly. A lot of people seem to not get this. High capacity magazines? Wouldn't touch them personally. Too heavy to lug around (I prefer to carry fewer rounds and hit what I aim at), may unbalance a weapon, and some are prone to jamming or feed problems.

So while I don't need them, don't want them, and wouldn't use them if you gave them to me... I absolutely need to have the freedom to obtain and use them if I ever change my mind. If I do not have that freedom, it means I have given up or lost yet another little piece of my freedoms to an ever more repressive and oppressive government.

Even more important than giving up a freedom I readily admit I'll probably never use and never miss... In doing so I've set the stage for the government to decide what freedoms I need, and which ones I don't.

That is a massive, life and society ending type problem. When you start letting the government tell you what you need and don't need, what you have and don't have, in terms of freedoms and liberties... Well, that's a problem in two areas. First, it flies in the face of the principles this Country was founded on. In fact it is supposed to be exactly the opposite - we tell the government exactly what delineated powers they have, not the other way around. Second, down the path of the government-knows-best lies oppression and misery on a huge scale. Look around throughout history and today - oppressive regimes have to fight to keep people in their Country. Why do you think people risk life and limb to escape them? We do not want to break with our Founding Fathers, and we do not want to subject ourselves and our fellow American citizens of the future to such deprivation.

15 posted on 02/11/2011 5:19:23 AM PST by ThunderSleeps (Stop obama now! Stop the hussein - insane agenda!)
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To: 2harddrive
"Why do you need a computer keyboard to type? "

Or taking that further why would he need more than 10 words to have freedom of speech? I mean he should be able to express himself in 10 words, eh?

16 posted on 02/11/2011 5:19:32 AM PST by Proud_texan (Scare people enough and they'll do anything.)
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To: marktwain

Jerk lost me as soon as he started calling magazines “clips.”

He should just stay up there in Canaduh where he’s protected and safe.

No offense to the freedom-loving Canadian FReepers.


17 posted on 02/11/2011 5:33:09 AM PST by PLMerite (Thanks for fixing the clock.)
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To: marktwain
Ok, what would happen if magazines over ten rounds were hard to get? Does the author think that assassinations and violent crime will go down at all? Are they just odd and scary to him?
If it is the former, then he is ignorant. You could do mass murder with a single shot. You can do mass murder with a knife or a lead pipe. If it is the later, you can't take away or limit the use of private property because you simply don't like it.
18 posted on 02/11/2011 5:33:15 AM PST by nerdwithagun (I'd rather go gun to gun then knife to knife.)
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To: Elderberry

Good Point. Everyone should read the example of McCarthy’s bill HR 308.

The ban is for all 10+ round magazines. Not just pistols.

So tens of millions of Americans who own rifles would be included in that proposed bill as written.

If a ban went into effect, owners of 10+ round magazines (both pistols and rifles) would need fear jail time when found with them because the burden of proof would be on the person to prove it was pre-ban.


19 posted on 02/11/2011 5:37:03 AM PST by jq2
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To: marktwain
Mr Canadian doesn't 'get' high capacity magazines because of one basic thing.

Like all his European brethren they were until recently "Subjects Of The Crown' and not really 'citizens' and did not have God Given Rights (or allowed to KNOW they had them). They were so inbred with the idea of being RULED by Kings, Queens, Emperors, Czars or Princes, they have no inherit idea of Complete Freedom.

They were told by their betters what they 'needed' and what they didn't 'need' and that was that. This goes back to the days Swords, Longbows and Match-Lock guns. (Can't have the peasants owning these, they may revolt dang it.)

As such, in America 'need' has nothing to do with anything. Generally, if we 'want it', we can 'get it' (natch if we can pay for 'it'). So if I WANT a 30 Round Stick Magazine or a 75-100 Round Drum Magazine I can get 'it'. Ditto for an 8 Round Capacity Handgun or a 15 Round one.

One of the matches that lit the fire of our Revolution was the Kings attempt to confiscate the Colonists firearms.

20 posted on 02/11/2011 5:39:52 AM PST by Condor51 (Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a Congressman. But I repeat myself. [Mark Twain])
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To: marktwain

I want alot of things that I don’t need. Consequently I have lots of things I don’t need. I’m free to do so, and I intend to stay that way.


21 posted on 02/11/2011 5:42:17 AM PST by Conan the Conservative (Crush the liberals, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the hippies.)
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To: 2harddrive

And of course, we all know that the bullets at the bottom of the magazine are deadlier.


22 posted on 02/11/2011 5:43:32 AM PST by MrB (Tagline suspended for important announcement on my home page. Click my handle.)
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To: edpc

The author is being perfectly reasonable in that assumption.
Notice that he says, “most situations” and not “never”.

Every crime statistic indicates that you’re more likely to be attacked by a single individual rather than a group, a gang, or an army.

So, actually, it’s NOT “likely to get the author killed some day.”

One of the cardinal rule for survival is “Prepare for the most likely, first.” So, if you’re not prepared for a close-quarters (less than 21 foot) encounter with an individual, you haven’t built a foundation for your hierarchy of presonal defense preparedness.

Once that’s dispensed with, it’s important to look at other situations and, while a 33rnd mag in a Glock 19 is more than a bit unwieldy, dismissing it out of hand may be a mistake. And, as previously stated by other posters, the idea that the government should determine what we “need” is a non-starter.


23 posted on 02/11/2011 5:49:54 AM PST by SJSAMPLE
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To: SJSAMPLE

It’s statistically true for individual crimes. However, the way things are going, I doubt we’ll be able to rely on past norms. Just my opinion.


24 posted on 02/11/2011 6:02:17 AM PST by edpc (It's Kräusened)
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To: edpc

I would say the Rodney King riots and the experiences of the Korean store owners would lend credibility to your assessment. Never hurts to have more than you think you’ll need.


25 posted on 02/11/2011 6:11:57 AM PST by SJSAMPLE
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To: harpseal; TexasCowboy; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; wku man; SLB; ...
I note that the mindset here, as is typical for those who have been unwittingly brainwashed by a lifetime of anti-freedom agitprop, has the question exactly backwards, with the default being control, not freedom.

The question is not "Why would a person need a 30-round magazine?". Rather, the true question is "Why would a peaceful, law-abiding citizen not be able to own one?".

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

26 posted on 02/11/2011 6:22:03 AM PST by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: marktwain
When the Bill of Rights was written, the Founding Fathers couldn't imagine that today's Press would have high capacity, high speed printing presses. They had to hand load the type & press the print by hand.
The Press has no need to print that much that fast!

Maybe the Press should be limited to manual printing presses & a capacity of 10 words or less.
Also, there should be a 5 day waiting period before their 10 words can be printed.

27 posted on 02/11/2011 6:30:03 AM PST by jrushing (Anti-American-ProTerrorist-Coward-Fascist-Communist-Socialist-Democratic Party)
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To: SJSAMPLE

Even in a hypothetical, but not unreasonable scenario of a home invasion by three criminals, the victim is at a 3:1 disadvantage from the get go. Add in the fact that the invaders probably have the element of surprise, a 30-rounder might not seem like such a bad idea.


28 posted on 02/11/2011 6:35:16 AM PST by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: marktwain

i’ve found the quickest way to shut these guys up is to attack something they own and demonize it, the way they do my guns. like the guy at my bar that was spouting off about hi-cap mags and why do i “need” one.
i looked outside and pointed at his car, asked him, “that’s your ‘vette, right? why do you *need* a car with a 400hp+ engine? why can’t you just have one of those with the same 105hp engine they put in the aveo?”

as far as “need” goes. to be honost, if i need more than the five rounds in my little snubbie, i probably shouldn’t be taking out my gun in the first place. but i don’t want the government telling my i’m not ALLOWED to carry a firearm with a higher capacity if i choose to do so.


29 posted on 02/11/2011 6:43:36 AM PST by absolootezer0 (2x divorced tattooed pierced harley hatin meghan mccain luvin' REAL beer drinkin' smoker ..what?)
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To: Joe 6-pack

I don’t disagree.
I’m just commenting on the likelihood of large-scale scenarios vs mano-a-mano.

You’d be surprised at how many people are un-prepared (un-trained) for the quick, close-in encounter. I run into gun shop patrons all the time who laugh at my .32ACP. When I say, “Show me yours.” they tell me they left their .44mag at home.

Now, I’m tempted to say that I’m my own hyppocrite, since I have a TT MAV loaded with AR mags, Glock 19 mags and tournequets, but I’ve already prepared for the most likely. After that, I’m just hedging my bets ;)


30 posted on 02/11/2011 7:02:33 AM PST by SJSAMPLE
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To: nerdwithagun
"You can do mass murder with a knife or a lead pipe."

Or, if you happen to be biblically inclined, "the jawbone of an ass". Though the Israelites didn't call it mass murder, I'm sure the recipients of said jawbone did.

31 posted on 02/11/2011 7:11:23 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: ThunderSleeps
"..and some are prone to jamming or feed problems."

Which is why my self-defense weapon is a revolver. Other than that, I agree with every word you wrote.

32 posted on 02/11/2011 7:19:01 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: marktwain

Send me an inventory of your personal possessions. You don’t “need” a TV set for starters. I’ll bet there’s a whole load of stuff you don’t “need”.


33 posted on 02/11/2011 7:53:36 AM PST by Seruzawa (What's Democrat's legacy? Almost 1/2 million dead US soldiers and collapsed cities.)
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To: marktwain

As pointed out by others - The burden is on demonstrating the necessity and importance of banning rather than the necessity and burden of justifying the possession of such. Kinda like the difference between being a subject vs being a citizen.


34 posted on 02/11/2011 8:09:37 AM PST by PeteCat
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To: marktwain
I don't need a gov’t and controlling bureaucrats deciding for me what I need or don't need.
35 posted on 02/11/2011 9:18:30 AM PST by paul51 (11 September 2001 - Never forget)
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To: Joe Brower
"Why would a person need a 30-round magazine?".

Because in a gunfight, running out of ammo is a very bad thing.

36 posted on 02/11/2011 10:06:02 AM PST by Hugin ("A man'll usually tell you his bad intentions if you listen and let yourself hear it"--- BTW)
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To: marktwain
But the actual need for a giant clip is still a head-scratcher for me.

What part of the expressions "flash mob" and "pack attack" doesn't the author understand.

37 posted on 02/11/2011 10:11:18 AM PST by The Duke
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To: marktwain

And we have to store all those bullets somewhere. ;~)


38 posted on 02/11/2011 12:53:32 PM PST by wolfcreek (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsd7DGqVSIc)
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To: SIDENET
There you go. It's none of their damn business. Well said.

Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!

39 posted on 02/11/2011 1:04:55 PM PST by wku man (Still holding my breath, but exhaling a bit after Nov. 2...)
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To: marktwain
The concept of anybody outside of a war zone that actually needs a 30 round clip plumb evades me . . .

Who gets to decide what I "need". Since I am a free man, I will, thank you very much. Whether need or want, it is my decision to make. I like it that way. I intend to keep it that way.

40 posted on 02/11/2011 1:13:31 PM PST by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
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To: Travis McGee; Joe Brower; marktwain

I think all of you remember this event in Killeen, TX.

Former TX. state rep. Suzanna Hupp recently spoke out about the Tucsan shooting saying, “the Lubys shooter would drop an empty mag and load another in a split second., not nearly long enough for someone to respond”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9NDnqS5h9k


41 posted on 02/11/2011 1:15:09 PM PST by wolfcreek (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsd7DGqVSIc)
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To: wolfcreek; Travis McGee; Hugin; marktwain
You know, over time I've had the opportunity to try both the Glock 19 and 23 with these "Glock on a stick" mags, and while they were fun and all (especially for extended shoot on the move scenarios), I found they denied me the standard grip I reflexively use with sidearms.

I found that just sticking with the standard-capacity (not "high capacity") 15-rnd and 12-rnd mags, respectively, worked better overall for me, and most others. If you can successfully reload quickly. Which we could. $:-)

42 posted on 02/11/2011 2:01:49 PM PST by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: Joe Brower

I agree. Standard cap for me. The one long stick I bought for my Xd was not made in Croatia, that’s for sure. Crap after market. (At least Glock builds their own.) Jammed on about the fifth shot every time. Twenty five bucks down the toilet. Live and learn.


43 posted on 02/11/2011 4:31:12 PM PST by Travis McGee (EnemiesForeignAndDomestic is now on Kindle.)
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To: Travis McGee

As it happens, I played with a Khan (yes, KHAAAAAAN!) aftermarket Glock 9mm 33 round mag yesterday. Made in S. Korea. Only ran 30 rounds through it, but it worked flawlessly, first time out of the wrapper.

FWLIW

On the general topic of the big Glock mags, I like having a loaded 33 round mag in the bottom of the glove box for an off-body reload. It’s a lot of ammo in a single package if things go really South.


44 posted on 02/12/2011 1:27:13 AM PST by FreedomPoster (Islam delenda est)
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To: Joe Brower

According to what I’ve heard/read, the extended mags tend to increase your chances of jamming. ( not to mention the cost factor)


45 posted on 02/12/2011 5:40:38 AM PST by wolfcreek (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsd7DGqVSIc)
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To: FreedomPoster

I wish I had an Xd big stick I could trust, I’d so the same. But the aftermarket one I could fine was a POS.


46 posted on 02/12/2011 6:10:54 AM PST by Travis McGee (EnemiesForeignAndDomestic is now on Kindle.)
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To: marktwain

FYI: The NRA is the OLDEST, and FAR AND AWAY the LARGEST, Civil Rights organization in the WORLD! It is exclusively dedicated to the USA’s 2nd Amendment!


47 posted on 02/18/2011 7:52:20 PM PST by 2harddrive
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