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The Four Golden Rules of Firearms Safety
AC ^ | Feb 11, 2010 | Dan S. Defense

Posted on 03/02/2011 9:21:03 AM PST by ArrogantBustard

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To: Joe Brower

Joe, thanks for the gun facts link!

Be Ever Vigilant!


51 posted on 03/02/2011 10:57:53 AM PST by blackie (Be Well~Be Armed~Be Safe~Molon Labe!)
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To: Uri’el-2012
nra badges aside, please explain how ASSuming that a firearm can be unloaded is 'safer' than treating ALL guns as if they are hot...???

the other rules basically are the same items, only the cooper version stresses the fatality of playing fast and loose with em, whereas the nra version simply deems a violation to be an 'oopsie'...

lotsa dead people that were 'accidently' shot with unloaded guns...and yes there are also plenty that have been dead from negligent discharges of loaded ones as well...

to me, small distinction, big difference...

52 posted on 03/02/2011 10:59:53 AM PST by Gilbo_3 (Gov is not reason; not eloquent; its force.Like fire,a dangerous servant & master. George Washington)
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To: ArrogantBustard
For those of us who carry pistols as a piece of clothing, Cooper's rules make a whole lot more sense than the NRA rules.

I agree, even though I carry, under a piece of clothing. (CC means CC)

53 posted on 03/02/2011 11:03:38 AM PST by conservonator ((...)Kant spill or type.)
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To: Uri’el-2012; ArrogantBustard
Why do you think the NRA rejected his rules?

Because they are UNSAFE !!!

U - I've been following your antics through several threads now. AB has asked multiple times for proof for your statements and all you come back with is stupid "yo-mamma" like quips. They're not as witty as you seem to believe, and without proof you're just chewing up bandwidth that could be better spent as white space on a blank page.

You put forward a factual proposition that (1) the NRA used Cooper's rules in the past, (2) ND's did not decrease after implementation of those rules (a meaningless statement without knowing what rules existed beforehand), (3) NDs did decrease after implementation of the new NRA rules, and (4) by implication the decrease was due to the implementation of the new NRA rules rather than some outside cause. You have also put forward the legal proposition that promotion of the Cooper rules exposes one to liability because those rules are unsafe.

Taking the last one first, leave the lawyering to lawyers because you clearly have no clue. In any negligence action the standard of care will be reasonableness based upon accepted standards of care within the particular trade or industry. Given that the Cooper rules are widely accepted as safe and valid expressions of the general concept of "don't shoot yourself or anyone else without intending to do so", I am confident that no credible expert would be willing to go on record at trial stating that the Cooper rules are not a reasonable standard of care.

As for your general factual misrepresentations, your conclusion that NRA dropped the Cooper rules because they were measurably unsafe is brand new to me. The story I've heard is that the NRA developed its own rules as a matter of internal politics to distance itself from Cooper's gunsight operation. I have never seen anything suggesting that the NRA's formulation of the exact same concepts are any more or less safe than the Cooper rules. Well, except for gun counter hangers who have too much time on their hands but that's another matter. Is that where you got your ideas? 'Cause you can hear pretty much everything at a gun counter.

Last, you've made empirically verifiable statements regarding comparable ND rates under persons trained under two sets of rules. If you're going to do that you need to have real data to back it up. Anecdotes or even your own internal subjective suppositions just won't cut it. Without that, your annoying font is just a meaningless collection of unfounded personal beliefs, and I applaud AB for calling you on it. Repeatedly.

54 posted on 03/02/2011 11:05:03 AM PST by FateAmenableToChange
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To: conservonator
I've always considered underwear to be clothing.

And yes, my CC piece would fall into the category of underwear.

55 posted on 03/02/2011 11:08:12 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: FateAmenableToChange
I've been following your antics through several threads now. AB has asked multiple times for proof for your statements and all you come back with is stupid "yo-mamma" like quips. They're not as witty as you seem to believe, and without proof you're just chewing up bandwidth that could be better spent as white space on a blank page. You put forward a factual proposition that (1) the NRA used Cooper's rules in the past, (2) ND's did not decrease after implementation of those rules (a meaningless statement without knowing what rules existed beforehand), (3) NDs did decrease after implementation of the new NRA rules, and (4) by implication the decrease was due to the implementation of the new NRA rules rather than some outside cause. You have also put forward the legal proposition that promotion of the Cooper rules exposes one to liability because those rules are unsafe. Taking the last one first, leave the lawyering to lawyers because you clearly have no clue. In any negligence action the standard of care will be reasonableness based upon accepted standards of care within the particular trade or industry. Given that the Cooper rules are widely accepted as safe and valid expressions of the general concept of "don't shoot yourself or anyone else without intending to do so", I am confident that no credible expert would be willing to go on record at trial stating that the Cooper rules are not a reasonable standard of care. As for your general factual misrepresentations, your conclusion that NRA dropped the Cooper rules because they were measurably unsafe is brand new to me. The story I've heard is that the NRA developed its own rules as a matter of internal politics to distance itself from Cooper's gunsight operation. I have never seen anything suggesting that the NRA's formulation of the exact same concepts are any more or less safe than the Cooper rules. Well, except for gun counter hangers who have too much time on their hands but that's another matter. Is that where you got your ideas? 'Cause you can hear pretty much everything at a gun counter. Last, you've made empirically verifiable statements regarding comparable ND rates under persons trained under two sets of rules. If you're going to do that you need to have real data to back it up. Anecdotes or even your own internal subjective suppositions just won't cut it. Without that, your annoying font is just a meaningless collection of unfounded personal beliefs, and I applaud AB for calling you on it. Repeatedly.

I make an assertion with experience as a
certified NRA trainer of trainers,
and a blowhard makes an assertion,
who you gona believe ?

56 posted on 03/02/2011 11:14:08 AM PST by Uriel-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: ArrogantBustard
And yes, my CC piece would fall into the category of underwear.

Lol, true, don't leave home with out it.

57 posted on 03/02/2011 11:15:06 AM PST by conservonator ((...)Kant spill or type.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

My family loves to watch “Top Shot”, the other day they had this contest where they had to run up hill and shoot at various targets, one of the guys was running with the barrel of his M1 pointing straight at the ground, it could have easily dug into the dirt and clogged the barrel, I winced and told my kids that was not correct. They said “We know dad !!” and they did because of the excellent Hunters Ed class the 4H program offers.


58 posted on 03/02/2011 11:16:38 AM PST by Scythian
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To: mamelukesabre

BOTH

Dad use to tell me there is no such thing as an unloaded gun...

but I do believe the late great Mr. Cooper appreciated the fact that a gun should be carried and it should be carried loaded...


59 posted on 03/02/2011 11:41:56 AM PST by Vaquero ("an armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: Gilbo_3
how does one carry for defense with an un-loaded weapon ???

Guns in active use are obviously loaded.

The point of number 3 is simply to ensure guns that aren't in active use are not loaded. "Use" can be defined broadly - a loaded condition one 1911 left on the kitchen counter for "home defense" - use- might be fine in one household and a hazard in another. Number 3 demands you make the assessment and act accordingly to reduce the potential for AD/ND.

It is NOT a directive to load your gun at point of use.

60 posted on 03/02/2011 12:21:32 PM PST by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: ArrogantBustard
It's not just a rule, it's a way of life.

We are in violent agreement that all guns should be treated as loaded until proven otherwise (dry fire, disassembly, repair, storage, cleaning etc.) but if you don't acknowledge that guns can in fact be unloaded, the aforementioned activities become difficult.

I don't have an issue with the Gunsite rules, but for most people the NRA rules require less clarification.

61 posted on 03/02/2011 12:34:05 PM PST by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: I see my hands
The first rule of interaction after shooting a BG: Say "I was afraid for my life, I want a lawyer" and nothing more, not one word more.

My attorney gave me a copy of his business card; the front of it is conventional, with his name, office number, e-mail address, etc. His home phone and cell number have been added. Officer:

If I have given you this card, it is because in fear for my life it has been necessary to take actions to defend myself. I am willing to sign a criminal complaint against the attacker. I will also point out witnesses and evidence. This is a stressful and traumatic experience for me. Therefore I wish to make no further statements until I have spoken with my attorney. Also, on his advice, I do not consent to any searches. I will cooperate fully once I have consulted with my attorney and he is present. As a lawfully armed citizen, I ask you for the same courtesy that you would show a fellow officer who was involved in a similiar situation.
Thank you for your understanding.

In the event that card doesn't work, there's a second one available. It's on the back of the personal card of the United States Attorney for this district, and reminds state and local law enforcement officials that any deprivation of any civil right of a U.S. citizen is a federal felony, and also constitutes a state felony of Official Misconduct that can cost them their job, even without a conviction.

Better to have and not need than to need and not have.

62 posted on 03/02/2011 12:39:06 PM PST by archy (I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!)
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To: Uri’el-2012; FateAmenableToChange; ArrogantBustard
I make an assertion with experience as a
certified NRA trainer of trainers,
and a blowhard makes an assertion,
who you gona believe ?

I have a niece who has a Masters in English and I wouldn't trust her to write a bank robbery note.

No matter who or what you are, "just because I say so" doesn't cut it.

If you are stating a "fact" and have no proof then it isn't a fact it is an opinion.

63 posted on 03/02/2011 12:39:41 PM PST by Eaker (The problem with the internet, you're never sure the accuracy of the quotes. ~ Abraham Lincoln, 1865)
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To: xsrdx
if you don't acknowledge that guns can in fact be unloaded, the aforementioned activities become difficult.

Sure ... I think the idea is that when you go to dry fire, clean, etc. your weapon, you're stepping into dangerous ground. Dry-fire is especially dangerous, and extra care must be taken to ensure that the chamber and magazine really are empty and that the ammo is truly separated from the firearm. For me, it's a mentality more than a rule.

For my part, I don't really have an issue with the 3 NRA rules, I just find that the 4 Gunsite rules seem to me to be more amenable to the mentality/way of life approach.

64 posted on 03/02/2011 12:46:44 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

Reference Ping


65 posted on 03/02/2011 12:51:28 PM PST by Voice of Reason88 ( Freedom is never lost all at once - Edmund Burke)
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To: Uri’el-2012; ArrogantBustard
I make an assertion with experience as a certified NRA trainer of trainers, and a blowhard makes an assertion, who you gona believe ?

I don't even have any proof of that. I've seen lots of overeducated people think that a piece of paper with a certification on it gives them license to pontificate about the widest array of stuff. Barak Obama, for instance, has a paper from Harvard and once lectured on Con Law, and he believes that now gives him the right to rewrite both the constitution and the definition of marriage.

Since: (1) you're dead wrong about the law,

(2) spouting theories about the history of the NRA rules of gun safety that contradict what I've consistently heard from NRA folks for a number of years,

(3) what you are saying makes absolutely zero sense (common or otherwise),

(4) you have consistently failed to provide any proof to any of your assertions other than your dogged claim to be a certified instructor of NRA instructors, and

(5) you write everything in a really annoying font,

I'm going to place you in the category of the slightly-trollish-gun-counter-opinion-holder who has extrapolated his theories out well past the boundaries of reason or experience.

No offense intended but the factual positions you take are simply not supportable. If the NRA had actually done a study to show that their version of the rules of gun safety produced markedly safer shooters than the well-known and widely-accepted Cooper rules, don't you think that the gun boards would be discussing the merits of that study in the same frequency as the Marshall-Sarnow stopping power data, John Lott's more guns less crime data, or the relative merits of the .45ACP v. the 9mm?

The only way such data could exist and not be discussed is if it is held in a super-secret, bomb-proof vault underneath Waples-Mill Rd and the NRA is sitting on it because they know that to reveal something that groundbreaking would save lives in the short term but ultimately cause the downfall of western civilization by showing that Jeff Cooper was wrong about something. Occam's razor -- you're asking me to believe that someone did this study (I doubt it -- putting together the control group would be a logistical nightmare, and probably only the military could get human subject approval for something like this, and doing the regressions to control for external factors would likely be impossible), and that somehow not only I, but also the entire community of internet gun board discussants, missed this study. I simply cannot imagine an alternate reality in which (a) this study exists, and (b) it is not discussed widely throughout the gun board-o-sphere.

I, and AB, both have expressed a willingness to be proved wrong if you provide any proof of your assertion. That, too, is an indicator that you are dealing with reasonable folks on the other end of this conversation. And yet, you consistently refuse to provide that proof.

Another indication that you are probably a 18-year-old kid posing as a knowledgable writer on firearms issues is that you insist on using weird html to format your posts. Your font is hard on the eyes and not very cool. Alternatively, I'm also looking at the word count comparing my posts and AB's posts to your responses. I'm fairly certain that neither of us truly believe we can sway your opinion, but at least in my case I really hate to see anti-knowledge spread recklessly throughout the internet. So far, your opinions in your font are anti-knowledge, and I'm writing both for the exercise in logic and to balance your anti-knowledge with well-thought-out responses. But the balance of payments resembles that between the US and China, and therefore I don't see any reason to deal further with your puffery.

66 posted on 03/02/2011 12:54:13 PM PST by FateAmenableToChange
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To: Vaquero

You gotta unload it sometime. And when you do, you still treat it as a loaded gun. No, you are wrong. There is no rule stating that it is mandatory to load all guns at all times.


67 posted on 03/02/2011 12:54:58 PM PST by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: archy
Beautiful. I'll be printing a couple cards for me and the wife. Thanks.

68 posted on 03/02/2011 12:57:57 PM PST by I see my hands (You can know the young posters by the desperate optimism in their posts.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

There are only three rules: Shoot, Shovel, Shut Up.


69 posted on 03/02/2011 12:59:34 PM PST by CodeToad (Islam needs to be banned in the US and treated as a criminal enterprise.)
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To: Eaker
If you are stating a "fact" and have no proof then it isn't a fact it is an opinion.

Well said.

70 posted on 03/02/2011 1:00:43 PM PST by FateAmenableToChange
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To: xsrdx
"3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.

"Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety device if possible, and, if the gun has a magazine, remove it before opening the action and looking into the chamber(s) which should be clear of ammunition. If you do not know how to open the action or inspect the chamber(s), leave the gun alone and get help from someone who does."

Can't agree with this one. My guns are loaded all the time, unless I am dismantling them for cleaning. An empty gun does exactly no good if you REALLY REALLY need it.

71 posted on 03/02/2011 1:01:41 PM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: Uri’el-2012

“NRA training dept spent years developing safer rules”

What a silly concept: Simple safety rules turned into years of development as though what took years to develop will ever turn into simple rules people will remember and follow. “None of us are not as dumb as all of us.”


72 posted on 03/02/2011 1:03:17 PM PST by CodeToad (Islam needs to be banned in the US and treated as a criminal enterprise.)
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To: xsrdx

yeah great, and since i conceded the ‘language’ aspect, the rest of the original post still stands, which you chose to avoid...


73 posted on 03/02/2011 1:08:44 PM PST by Gilbo_3 (Gov is not reason; not eloquent; its force.Like fire,a dangerous servant & master. George Washington)
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To: ArrogantBustard
My rules of Firearms safety.

1) That gun probably isn't loaded. I mean, you looked once, right?

2) Guns are fun, so play around with them any way you like. Doing "Quick Draw McGraw" drills with your buddy is a lot of fun!

3) In order to be properly relaxed, it is advised you drink at least a case of beer before handling firearms.

4) Bullets stop where you can see, so don't worry about what's behind your target. Out of sight, out of mind!

74 posted on 03/02/2011 1:11:56 PM PST by Lazamataz (Scott Walker: Please FIRE.... then APPOINT... then VOTE.)
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To: I see my hands
Beautiful. I'll be printing a couple cards for me and the wife. Thanks.

You're welcome. Hope you don't need 'em. Hope you have them with you if you do.

75 posted on 03/02/2011 1:12:18 PM PST by archy (I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!)
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To: oyez

That’s a good point.


76 posted on 03/02/2011 1:35:55 PM PST by Hardastarboard (Bringing children to America without immigration documents is child abuse. Let's end it.)
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To: I see my hands

Splashing a little water on the front of your pants and pointing it out to the police also helps bolster your claim that you were in fear of your life.


77 posted on 03/02/2011 1:43:03 PM PST by CholeraJoe (Would I have brought it up if I thought it was outrageous?)
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To: ArrogantBustard

5. NEVER play Russian Roulette with an automatic.


78 posted on 03/02/2011 1:45:25 PM PST by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: FateAmenableToChange

Post of the (new) month. Great job Fate.


79 posted on 03/02/2011 1:57:07 PM PST by bobby.223
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To: Lazamataz
LOL!!!! I just knew I could count on you.
80 posted on 03/02/2011 1:57:23 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Lazamataz

OBTW, a security guard at one of my former employers liked to play “Quick Draw McGraw” in the restroom. He was fired after firing a round into the mirror.


81 posted on 03/02/2011 1:59:03 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Lazamataz
2) Guns are fun, so play around with them any way you like. Doing "Quick Draw McGraw" drills with your buddy is a lot of fun!

Up the road from me, two local deputies were suspended a couple years back when their sergeant walked out into the hallway where they were each at opposite ends of the hall doing the quick draw mcgraw drills at each other with their duty weapons. A crowd of other deputies was egging them on.

From this, we learn that life imitates art and that I live in a really bad place.

82 posted on 03/02/2011 2:09:08 PM PST by FateAmenableToChange
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To: bobby.223

Thx!


83 posted on 03/02/2011 2:11:13 PM PST by FateAmenableToChange
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To: Uri’el-2012

The coach can rarely outperform the athlete he trains. This does not demean his value.


84 posted on 03/02/2011 2:16:58 PM PST by ctdonath2 (Great children's books - http://www.UsborneBooksGA.com)
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To: Gilbo_3
which you chose to avoid...

No issue with your post, except to clarify that "use" in No. 3 is user defined, as you noted.

Obeying NRA No. 1 and No. 2 will ensure the loaded vs. unloaded condition is irrelevant. If it's not in "use" it should be unloaded.

"Every gun is loaded" is fiction, and adds nothing useful outside of the requirement for NRA 1 and 2.

85 posted on 03/02/2011 2:29:47 PM PST by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: FateAmenableToChange
Charlie Sheen; I'm outing you !

You make as much sense as drug addled Charlie Sheen.


86 posted on 03/02/2011 2:56:38 PM PST by Uriel-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: archy

excellent idea- I may try to figure out how to get that on my attorney’s card in number 8 font on the back.


87 posted on 03/02/2011 2:58:54 PM PST by WOBBLY BOB ( "I don't want the majority if we don't stand for something"- Jim Demint)
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To: xsrdx
We are in violent agreement that all guns should be treated as loaded until proven otherwise (dry fire, disassembly, repair, storage, cleaning etc.) but if you don't acknowledge that guns can in fact be unloaded, the aforementioned activities become difficult.

I would rephrase the rule as "Always be prepared for firearms to perniciously load or unload themselves any time you're not looking. If you must dry-fire a firearm to disassemble it, watch it especially closely from the time you check the chamber (including, preferably, shining a light through the bore) to the time you actually dry-fire it. The ammo gremlins can be extremely sneaky, so one must be exceptionally vigilant.

88 posted on 03/02/2011 3:43:36 PM PST by supercat (Barry Soetoro == Bravo Sierra)
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To: Eaker; Squantos; humblegunner; B4Ranch; Pete-R-Bilt; tubebender
I carry hot. I was trained Cooper. NRA rules are good for the kids and those who don't have a need to carry hot, and those who haven't been shooting all their lives, or those who don't have a need to go to war at the drop of a pin. When the shtf, you fall back to your training, and Cooper's rules are sufficient and necessary to keep you from shooting off your toe, blowing your partner away, or taking out a bystander; and most importantly, making it home alive. That's my opinion, I admit I'm an asshole, and everybody has one... now what the hell was the question?


89 posted on 03/02/2011 4:26:11 PM PST by glock rocks (I am Dyslexis of Borg. Your ass will be laminated.)
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To: glock rocks

Well said.

And mine’s just above my left knee.


90 posted on 03/02/2011 4:30:23 PM PST by humblegunner (Blogger Overlord)
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To: glock rocks

Seven out of ten is a lot.

More than I ever get!


91 posted on 03/02/2011 4:48:01 PM PST by Eaker (The problem with the internet, you're never sure the accuracy of the quotes. ~ Abraham Lincoln, 1865)
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To: Uri’el-2012; FateAmenableToChange; ArrogantBustard

I would expect more maturity from the “teacher of teachers”.


92 posted on 03/02/2011 4:55:24 PM PST by Eaker (The problem with the internet, you're never sure the accuracy of the quotes. ~ Abraham Lincoln, 1865)
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To: Eaker

... and that’s just sitting in the den, alone.


93 posted on 03/02/2011 5:18:55 PM PST by glock rocks (I am Dyslexis of Borg. Your ass will be laminated.)
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To: glock rocks

Did you notice my voice has gotten more mature...


94 posted on 03/02/2011 5:22:52 PM PST by tubebender (Now hiring Tag Line writers. Full time low pay)
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To: FateAmenableToChange

Here, I’ll hold the nail, and when I nod my head, you hit it with the hammer.

Damn, I wish I could organize my thoughts enough to write as well as you do. Excellent post.


95 posted on 03/02/2011 5:25:50 PM PST by glock rocks (I am Dyslexis of Borg. Your ass will be laminated.)
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To: CholeraJoe

Been there... but used a hershey bar 180 degrees out.....:o)


96 posted on 03/02/2011 5:38:47 PM PST by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet)
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To: tubebender
Did you notice my voice has gotten more mature...

I noticed it gets a little lower and gravelly when you drink wine. I know better than to get into a discussion about maturity with you, so I think instead I'll get the new Sig out of the safe and clean the cosmolene off. I'm pretty sure the boys up in the live free or die state wouldn't have left any bullets in it, eh?

97 posted on 03/02/2011 5:42:13 PM PST by glock rocks (I am Dyslexis of Borg. Your ass will be laminated.)
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To: glock rocks

Don’t shoot your toe off... again


98 posted on 03/02/2011 5:49:51 PM PST by tubebender (Now hiring Tag Line writers. Full time low pay)
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To: tubebender

You’ll shoot yer eye out!


99 posted on 03/02/2011 6:58:40 PM PST by glock rocks (I am Dyslexis of Borg. Your ass will be laminated.)
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To: tubebender

100.


100 posted on 03/02/2011 6:59:13 PM PST by glock rocks (I am Dyslexis of Borg. Your ass will be laminated.)
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