Posted on 03/06/2011 11:45:45 AM PST by Nachum
Not all schools go out of their way to not teach Jack.
First of all you make the mistake of thinking I’m defending our public school systems, and I’m not. My kids were all home schooled. That doesn’t take away from the point I made, the problems originate at home. Do you honestly think that any school system can do an excellent job given what our pop culture, divorce, disinterested parents, drugs and so on do to the kids 24/7. It’s nuts. Look at what I said, and at your reaction. I am saying parents should take responsibility for their children’s education. Parents had them, not the schools. If parents can’t participate in the education of their children, they should at least give their kids a few values that would make them behave in school or anywhere. You don’t need to yell at me. I don’t agree that the whole problem is with the school systems.
You’re generalizing a little bit, but I can tell from your profile that you do that. I forgot that you are the one that hates American women. I’m sorry, I simply can’t relate to foreigners well enough to marry them
The military and jails have to deal with these same people, yet they do, and quite successfully overall (i.e., go to a prison some time and you’ll see what I mean regarding behavior).
Schools can do the same, but CHOOSE not to. In some states, like here in Texas, they can practically whip the kids who misbehave...but there is a big problem, they schools CHOOSE to not do so. Instead they CHOOSE to ‘mainstream’ those kids and wreck it for everyone else. They can simply say to the kids, something to the effect of: “We don’t care what happens out there, when you’re here, you sit down, shut up, and pay attention. And if that is asking too much from you, we promise that the next time you sit down, it will be painful.” It’s incredible how quick kids can behave if they’re given some no-nonsense rules. Except for the relatively rare cases of kids being pregnant, sexually abused, or physically beaten, blaming the parents is simply an EXCUSE for the educational system, and I am very surprised that someone who claims to home school can’t realize that.
And yes, the curriculum make a HUGE difference in the attitudes - if the kids are LEARNING something, they at least see a reason for being there...and if they’re taught to read before they’re 16 they will be a whole lot happier.
And since EVERYONE knows that phonics is the ONLY way to teach reading that works, I sure as hell do believe that schools go out of their way to teach Jack.
Sorry if my tone bothers you, but I have to work with a lot of products of public schools, and most of them have good parents (as far as I can tell).
Sorry, I was off-line and crossed up my reply with another. As to American women...all I say is that it’s simply a probability game and I chose to play the odds. There are plenty of good American women, and a guy has about a 50% chance of having one after marrying the person. For foreign-born women, it’s about 90%. I have enough drama at work and simply chose to play the odds. As I’m sure you know, LOTS of other guys do exactly the same...and if you want to blame the men for the stacked odds, feel free, but things will NEVER change as long as the men continue to be blamed for the mess that we have.
The military and jails have to deal with these same people, yet they do, and quite successfully overall (i.e., go to a prison some time and you’ll see what I mean regarding behavior).
Schools can do the same, but CHOOSE not to. In some states, like here in Texas, they can practically whip the kids who misbehave...but there is a big problem, they schools CHOOSE to not do so (stifles their ‘creativity’ and whatnot). Instead they CHOOSE to ‘mainstream’ (or at least ignore) those kids and wreck it for everyone else.
The schools can simply say to the kids, something to the effect of: “We don’t care what happens out there, when you’re here, you sit down, shut up, and pay attention. And if that is asking too much from you, we promise that the next time you sit down, it will be painful.” It’s incredible how quick kids can behave if they’re given some no-nonsense rules. Except for the relatively rare cases of kids being pregnant, sexually abused, or physically beaten, blaming the parents is simply an EXCUSE for the failed educational system, and I am very surprised that someone who claims to home school can’t realize that.
And yes, the curriculum make a HUGE difference in their attitudes - if the kids are LEARNING something, they at least see a reason for being there...and if they’re taught to read before they’re 16 they will be a whole lot happier.
And since EVERYONE knows that phonics is the ONLY way to teach reading that works, I sure as hell do believe that schools go out of their way to teach Jack.
Sorry if my tone bothers you, but I have to work with a lot of products of public schools, and most of them do have good parents (as far as I can tell).
The yelling is idiotic, but if you can’t do without the yelling, go ahead. I’ve been in the military, worked with our prison systems, was even a corrections officer for awhile when I was younger. I’ve taught in public and private schools, and worked in programs dealing with the worst of kids, so I think I know a little about all of it.
My wife teaches, as does one of my sons. During his college breaks he worked at Livermore Labs, and then started teaching in Los Alamos. He also worked with the Head Start program preparing kids to get into college. We watched “Waiting for Superman,” and came to the conclusion that my point is essentially correct. Notice how the kids who were getting into the charter schools and private schools had parents who were taking some responsibility for their education. That is the point I’ve been making. I bet those kids, even in dysfunctional public schools, will do better. Notice also that the critical years between the time the kids were educable to the time they were lost was after their elementary years. The word to define that is culture. One of the reasons the kids who are put into charter schools at a young age are successful as they move up is because they are in a sub-culture that buffers them from the broader culture they live in. They beat the system.
I’m in New Mexico where schools don’ t have tenure. This system is a revolving door of teachers, little of it having to do with acquiring better teachers. It is a way of suppressing salaries. While I don’t like the NEA or tenure systems, or bad teachers for that matter, there is a bigger problem causing the breakdown of our public schools, and that is the bigger culture around them. That big problem of culture is what creates the bad parenting, and what helps fill our correctional institutions that you are familiar with.
Better teachers are a great idea. Finding them is a little more difficult. The schools systems are overloaded. In most places teachers are underpaid for the work they do, and your best people don’t want to go into education. You will find people like my wife and son who love kids, and would do what they are doing regardless of the pay. Ten hour days are the norm, and that doesn’t include the tutoring on the side and the endless meetings with parents. Why would your best people in any field want to go into that. I won’t do it.
I wish you luck with reforming the schools systems. I think you are going to have as much luck as I will have reforming the culture.
Notice that I have been polite and not yelled at you.
LOL...I write as I talk...can’t help that.
I guess we saw two different versions of Waiting for Superman. The version that I saw showed me a bunch of schools that EVERYONE knows work, and huge numbers of parents that wanted their kids to get into those schools...but had little chance...it was all luck. As far as I can tell, those schools do not operate in a top-secret fashion, they are more than happy to share their ways with the public schools. I then see the public schools ignoring what is OBVIOUSLY the path that would get their kids to succeed. So, yes, I do blame the schools, COMPLETELY. At the very least they could pick up the 740 kids from the one school that didn’t win the lottery, copy the successful methods of that school, and help the obviously motivated kids and parents succeed.
But no, those schools are INVISIBLE as far as public education is concerned...so that is why I blame the schools. Just in that movie, there were well over 1,000 kids that were condemned to failure - FOR NO REASON, other than to please the public school system.
So, sorry, I will NEVER give the schools a pass - they are producing EXACTLY what they want to produce, since they have schools in the SAME neighborhoods that do it right...yet are IGNORED.
As to the other parents, the ones not at those lotteries, I’ll start blaming them when those 1,000+ kids are given a chance to succeed. Until then - I blame the public schools, the teachers, and the administrators, EXCLUSIVELY.
Good luck trying to fix things. It isn’t going to happen. The problem is much larger than the schools. Merely getting public schools that have huge enrollments and the inability to choose any of their students to imitate what happens in certain charter schools won’t work. But, if you want to place all the blame on schools, most of which are deserving, and on teachers, most of which aren’t deserving, go for it. I do hope your manners improve.
“Merely getting public schools that have huge enrollments and the inability to choose any of their students to imitate what happens in certain charter schools won’t work.”
You’re certainly entitled to be an apologist for the public schools, I just don’t have to join you.
Yes, I who home schooled my kids am an apologist for the public schools.
You must be reading something different than what I am writing to conclude that. Rather, I am not forming my opinion from having watched one narrowly focused documentary. I know that some charter schools work, and some don't, but I also know that any school that can be highly selective with teachers and the number of students it enrolls will work better than a public school that doesn't have a choice. That is one of the reasons home schooling works so well, better than the charter schools. When a school is bound by law to accept every student in its district, that includes students who want to learn and students who don't, parents who care, and parents who don't, it is far more difficult to get student cooperation. ...To get that cooperation, schools could use corporal punishment, as you suggested, but they won't. As I type NM is trying to pass a bill that will allow districts to decide whether or not they want to use corporal punishment. I don't know the status of the bill, but even if it passes, I know most districts will opt out. They are already burdened with lawsuits from sue happy parents whose only involvement with public schools and their children's education is through the courts.
But, I digress. Simply put, most public school systems couldn't follow the example of small charter schools if they wanted to, and corporal punishment isn't much of an option.
Another point that should be mentioned is that the schools in the documentary are using standardized tests as their yard stick. The Catholic Schools of days gone by would laugh a that. Even the very first DC schools for black children would get a chuckle. They had the highest standards in the nation, but times, culture and parents were different then, not to mention school populations.
I'm not an apologist for public schools, just a realist who has a better understanding of the problems than you do.
You are an apologist for irresponsible parenting, whereas I think parents should be responsible for their children, and that includes taking responsibility for their education. My first choice would be for them to unburden the taxpayers and home school. They should shoot for a higher yard stick than standardized tests while they are at it. If they can't home school, they should try for private schools, or work with their churches and communities to form private schools. If they must burden the taxpayers by having their kids in public schools, they should still accept responsibility for their education. ...I am an apologist for parental responsibility.
Rush has a problem with what he calls “Seminar Callers”. Those are people that, at first, flatter him, by spouting off their conservative credentials, and then saying “but”, and then attacking the Republicans.
Likewise, a person that both claims to homeschool and still serves as an apologist for the public schools stretches the limits of credibility. It is difficult to have a rational debate with that type of person.
As I said, I’m not an apologist for public schools, but you are obviously to ignorant to understand what I mean when I say that parents should be responsible for their children. If you can’t handle the conversation, you shouldn’t have entered into it.
Whatever...I’m just saying that I don’t fall for these gags. Go on with others, and you’ll probably have better luck.
You go on. You started with me, and like a typical liberal, you falsely accuse and label me, not to mention no conservative would argue against parental responsibility. Go back to the DU and be a punk.
I’m not the one APOLOGIZING for the public schools (and then conveniently denying it).
You’ll find a there are a LOT of other websites where your positions will be better received...but not here, where, roughly 90% of the people are willing to accept that the public schools have failed, WITHOUT having to qualify it.
“I’m not the one APOLOGIZING for the public schools...”
Of course anyone with any sense would know that I’m not either, but that obviously counts you out. There are plenty of websites that will gladly accept your narrow-minded opinions, but around here, you will get people intelligent enough to think things through more thoroughly. You’ll also find that people here don’t fit in a neat little box of ignorance. Not that I’m asking you to stick around, and discover that for yourself. Like I said, go back to the DU where you belong.
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