Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Forensic Analysis Of Events At Fukushima Nuclear Plant
Zero Hedge and World Nuclear News ^ | 03/12/2011 | World Nuclear News

Posted on 03/12/2011 3:14:43 PM PST by Nobel_1

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-65 next last
Original article, with additional schematics, is at http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Battle_to_stabilise_earthquake_reactors_1203111.html

I recommend you read the commentary at Zero Hedge via the source URL, then check out the schematics at the above URL.

1 posted on 03/12/2011 3:14:46 PM PST by Nobel_1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Nobel_1

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Battle_to_stabilise_earthquake_reactors_1203111.html


2 posted on 03/12/2011 3:18:03 PM PST by maine-iac7 ("We stand together or we fall apart" mt)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: All
clickable links:

Link to Zero Hedge Editorial

Link to World Nuclear News article

3 posted on 03/12/2011 3:19:35 PM PST by Nobel_1 (bring on the Patriots!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Nobel_1

For comparison from NukeWorker.com
Re: Japan’s Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #81 on: Today at 11:39 »
Nuclear Renaissance (poster)

You get to primary containment flooding if you have no other reliable injection source to the vessel. Continued station blackout gets you most of the way there - an explosion in secondary containment does the rest.

Earthquake causes loss of grid

Loss of offsite power causes scram, Main Steam Isolation, and diesel generator start

Tsunami wave trips diesels an hour later – station blackout

Steam-driven systems are only means of injection – it is necessary to stay at pressure to maintain motive force

No AC means no containment cooling – HPCI should not be used due to its very high exhaust steam discharge into containment

Level is held low, in part to minimize injection (and resultant RCIC-exhaust containment heatup) and in part to stay on DC-powered level instruments

Containment venting becomes necessary to avoid overpressurizing containment – they probably were considering venting early with uncertainty of quake damage to containment

8 hr battery coping time is exceeded – RCIC becomes non-functional in auto

Local manual operation of RCIC becomes necessary (news reports said 4 operators were in the reactor building basement), meanwhile level continues to lower, challenging fuel

Hydrogen buildup in reactor building causes explosion, obliterating secondary containment and possibly damaging injection penetrations (most are AC-powered anyway). News reports said there were on Steam Condensing mode after the MSIV closure, which creates a direct vessel dome path to the RHR heat exchangers.

Enter containment flooding.


4 posted on 03/12/2011 3:20:56 PM PST by EBH ( Whether you eat your bread or see it vanish into a looter's stomach, is an absolute.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Nobel_1

Bfl


5 posted on 03/12/2011 3:21:22 PM PST by tutstar
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: All

Cutaway diagram of the central reactor vessel and thick concrete containment in a typical boiling water reactor of the same era as Fukushima Daiichi 1

6 posted on 03/12/2011 3:23:25 PM PST by Nobel_1 (bring on the Patriots!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Nobel_1
Gossip, rumors and innuendo are like a juicy aroma that makes your mouth water. Facts and proper analysis are like that perfectly seasoned medium steak.

Good post.
7 posted on 03/12/2011 3:25:05 PM PST by Eyes Unclouded ("The word bipartisan means some larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." -George Carlin)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: Nobel_1

Yah beat me.


9 posted on 03/12/2011 3:28:33 PM PST by PA Engineer (Liberate America from the occupation media. There are Wars and Rumors of War.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: PA Engineer; Nobel_1
I love that diagram. So mid-century. So G.E.-ish.

One thing I don't get about it. Where are the control rods?

10 posted on 03/12/2011 3:33:38 PM PST by Steely Tom (Obama goes on long after the thrill of Obama is gone)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Eyes Unclouded
medium steak.

medium-rare steak.

Should have previewed that post.

On a technical note has anyone heard any follow up about the earlier readings of cesium around the plant? It seems to me that it is possible that the explosion, which was directed upwards to minimize damage as much as possible to the actual containment, would still do a fair deal of damage coming on the heels of several dozen earthquakes and a tsunami. Could elements be exposed?

Also about the sea water pumping where will the water circulate to? Will it be sequestered to avoid contamination? Will it just turn into steam and drift off into the winds?
11 posted on 03/12/2011 3:34:27 PM PST by Eyes Unclouded ("The word bipartisan means some larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." -George Carlin)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: All

Re: Pressure and releases

quote from the article’s analysis:

“Without enough power for cooling systems, decay heat from the reactor cores of units 1, 2 and 3 has gradually reduced coolant water levels through evaporation. The consequent increase in pressure in the coolant circuit can be managed via pressure release valves. However, this leads to an increase in pressure within the reactor building containment. Tepco has said that the pressure within the containment of Fukushima Daiichi 1 has reached around 840 kPa, compared to reference levels of 400 kPa.”

(840 kPa is approx 122 psi)


12 posted on 03/12/2011 3:34:39 PM PST by Nobel_1 (bring on the Patriots!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: PA Engineer

Easy to see why the top blew off.. looks like its made not nearly as strong as the rest of the building.


13 posted on 03/12/2011 3:37:51 PM PST by Mmogamer (I refudiate the lamestream media, leftists and their prevaricutions.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: All

Generic schematic for this reactor type

14 posted on 03/12/2011 3:38:01 PM PST by Nobel_1 (bring on the Patriots!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Steely Tom


#3 are the control rods and #2 is the fuel. Hope that helps.
15 posted on 03/12/2011 3:41:35 PM PST by PA Engineer (Liberate America from the occupation media. There are Wars and Rumors of War.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

Comment #16 Removed by Moderator

To: All

Re: Summary status of the reactors earlier today

Fukushima Daiichi Unit 1
- 439 MWe BWR, 1971
- Automatically shut down
- Water level decreasing
- Pressure release implemented
- Explosion observed
- Containment believed intact
- Seawater injection has started
- Radiation levels did not rise after explosion

Unit 2
- 760 MWe BWR, 1974
- Automatically shut down
- Water level lower but steady
- Preparations for pressure release

Unit 3
- 760 MWe BWR, 1976
- Automatically shut down
- Preparations for pressure release

Unit 4
- 760 MWe BWR, 1978
- Shut for periodic inspection

Unit 5
- 760 MWe BWR, 1978
- Shut for periodic inspection

Unit 6
- 1067 MWe BWR, 1979
- Shut for periodic inspection

Fukushima Daini Unit 1
- 1067 MWe BWR, 1982
- Automatically shut down
- Offsite power available
- Water level stable
- Preparations for pressure release

Unit 2
- 1067 MWe BWR, 1984
- Automatically shut down
- Offsite power available
- Water level stable
- Preparations for pressure release

Unit 3
- 1067 MWe BWR, 1985
- Automatically shut down
- Offsite power available
- Water level stable
- Preparations for pressure release

Unit 4
- 1067 MWe BWR, 1987
- Automatically shut down
- Offsite power available
- Water level stable
- Preparations for pressure release


17 posted on 03/12/2011 3:43:56 PM PST by Nobel_1 (bring on the Patriots!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Mmogamer
looks like its made not nearly as strong as the rest of the building.

Intentionally so as designed. The building performed as it should have when the hydrogen lit up.
18 posted on 03/12/2011 3:50:52 PM PST by PA Engineer (Liberate America from the occupation media. There are Wars and Rumors of War.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Eyes Unclouded

nice illustration


19 posted on 03/12/2011 3:53:36 PM PST by Nobel_1 (bring on the Patriots!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Nobel_1

Thanks for all the good posts. If I hear one more time this is worse than Chernobyl, I am going to go ludicrously super critical.


20 posted on 03/12/2011 3:55:15 PM PST by PA Engineer (Liberate America from the occupation media. There are Wars and Rumors of War.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Eyes Unclouded

Question...and I”m no scientist...but could they use supercooled items like Liquid Nitrogen or equvalent? Or would that not be a good combination with nuclear elements? and even if you were able to get LN02,how would you circulate it without power? I guess I just answered my own question but seawater doesn’t seem nearly cold enough all by iteslf. My prayers to the scientists and engineers obviously putting their lives on the line to control this.


21 posted on 03/12/2011 3:55:25 PM PST by SueRae (I can see November 2012 from my HOUSE!!!!!!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: PA Engineer

Re: super critical

good one - CNN is in overdrive ...

Just found this latest status website:

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11031301-e.html


22 posted on 03/12/2011 3:57:56 PM PST by Nobel_1 (bring on the Patriots!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: SueRae

A very-cold liquid like Liquid Nitrogen would flash to gaseous state immediately and cause an serious explosion. You want to use a coolant that stays in phase, a liquid that stays liquid or a gas.


23 posted on 03/12/2011 4:09:42 PM PST by bvw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Nobel_1

Outstanding post, Thanks for putting this up. Best explanation of what’s going on that I have read yet.

There is no doubt that there are serious problems over there with these particular reactors, and the fact they are still relatively intact despite surviving both a magnitude 9.1 earthquake and the resultant tsunami is testament to the sound engineering that went into them in the first place.

It sound to me like some of the measures being taken, such as seawater injection for cooling, will probably destroy the internal workings of these reactors and likely require extensive replacement of a lot of expensive components. While it isn’t over yet, this accident is not anywhere near out of control and there still has not been a major radiation release; (and I mean something on the scale of a Chernobyl).

Hopefully this will help calm some of the chicken-little mentality....


24 posted on 03/12/2011 4:20:11 PM PST by Bean Counter (Stout Hearts!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Nobel_1

ping


25 posted on 03/12/2011 4:28:29 PM PST by gloryblaze (Don't forget to donate and keep FR going strong!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SueRae

Nope. It would just explode the unit and throw the fuel inside everywhere. You have to ramp things down smoothly as reactors are basically atom bombs in super slow motion so they can be kept in a feedback loop.

Normally some plants can take days or even weeks to fully shutdown and that is with full power, full staff, no earthquake/tsunami damage.

Right now they are dealing with damaged systems operating way outside any normal environment with limited resources.

The seawater and boric acid is a last ditch effort to avoid some local, albeit serious, contamination.


26 posted on 03/12/2011 4:37:07 PM PST by Eyes Unclouded ("The word bipartisan means some larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." -George Carlin)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Bean Counter

“will probably destroy the internal workings of these reactors and likely require extensive replacement of a lot of expensive components”

From what I understand is that these are very old reactors that were due to be decommissioned rather soon anyways. Either way Japanese firms are extremely nationalistic and will almost always put country ahead of profit so I’m positive every decision is being made with safety solely in mind.


27 posted on 03/12/2011 4:39:52 PM PST by Eyes Unclouded ("The word bipartisan means some larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." -George Carlin)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: PA Engineer; Pride in the USA

Thank you SO much for the ping and the pointer from the other thread. This thread is sorely needed on FR at this time. Like most people, I don’t understand the technology at all, but sure appreciate the opportunity to be more informed by those of you with real world education and experience.

In the early morning hours when this story was first breaking there were posters giving and taking internet medical advice about administering KI, and it was quite alarming to see. Your voice(s) are so important now and I hope some of you will have a lot of time to post over the next several days.

Thanks again!


28 posted on 03/12/2011 4:39:52 PM PST by lonevoice (Where the Welfare State is on the march, the Police State is not far behind)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Nobel_1; All

Here are the official press releases from the company.

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/index-e.html

The initial 9.1 quake is down at number 42.


29 posted on 03/12/2011 4:41:54 PM PST by Eyes Unclouded ("The word bipartisan means some larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." -George Carlin)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Nobel_1
Maybe it's just me but when I picture what nuclear reactors look like, I always envision the one from Dr. No.. And it just takes one disgruntled employee to spin a wheel to set off a meltdown.
30 posted on 03/12/2011 4:42:53 PM PST by PJ-Comix (The Coupon Whisperer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Nobel_1

Thanks and bookmark


31 posted on 03/12/2011 4:44:48 PM PST by Leofl (I'm from Texas, we don't dial 9-11)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Nobel_1
NOBEL_1, you are Outstanding!

Any way this can be force-fed to CNN, Fox and all these other knee-jerk reactionaries who faint, then wake to go rabid about anything nuclear?

32 posted on 03/12/2011 4:45:38 PM PST by BwanaNdege
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Eyes Unclouded

The drawing with the loops showing flow is of a PWR plant. instead of the BWR that was affected by the tsunami.

Control rods in a BWR enter from the bottom of the reactor.


33 posted on 03/12/2011 4:53:47 PM PST by meatloaf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Steely Tom
Where are the control rods?

Underneath.

34 posted on 03/12/2011 4:56:06 PM PST by SteamShovel ("Does the noise in my head bother you?")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: meatloaf

Duly noted, I’ll get the mod to pull it.


35 posted on 03/12/2011 5:02:17 PM PST by Eyes Unclouded ("The word bipartisan means some larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." -George Carlin)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: EBH

As a former Senior Reactor Operator at a large PWR and with BWR experience. Yup. That is what happened (is happening). This scenario is the perfect storm. No Power, No way to get pre-planned Resources on board, No way to change crew perhaps.

I feel horrible for the operators there and wish to all my heart I could help them.

In 2007 I was in a special team assigned to figure out how to cope with scenarios EXACTLY like this. I knew it was going to Containment Flooding yesterday.

After Fukushima Unit 1 blew off the sheet metal building, Did anyone assess the Spent Fuel Pool? The Pool has to have sustained damage. Further, there has to be wreckage IN the Pool, impinging on Spent Fuel Assemblies in their racks. We don’t know if the explosion blew the water out of the pool either. HORRIBLE EVENTS.


36 posted on 03/12/2011 5:02:41 PM PST by Red_List_Patriot
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Mmogamer
This is an Achilles heel for older BWRs. The tin roof housing the Spent Fuel Pool. Also, this serves as Secondary Containment which captures most of the gases and passes them through charcoal filters prior to releasing. This is where the Venting of the Containment accumulated hydrogen after Core Damage.
37 posted on 03/12/2011 5:02:51 PM PST by Red_List_Patriot
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Steely Tom

GE reactors are upside down. The control rods penetrate the bottom of the reactor and move upward in order to insert negative reactivity. The motive force for this is, HCUs (Hydraulic Control Units). The fluid is Water (not oil). There are accumulators to ensure that there is pressure to move the Control Rods up into the Core.


38 posted on 03/12/2011 5:02:57 PM PST by Red_List_Patriot
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: PA Engineer
I am going to go ludicrously super critical.

When you pass Ridiculously Critical and start emitting plaid, we'll know to take cover.

/Spaceballs

It's nice that we have a broad enough user base that we have folks who're conversant in almost any given field for accessible, local expertise. TEPCO's website seems to be pretty forthcoming with frequent status updates, as well.

Driving home Friday evening, I heard an ABC Radio News' 'nuclear expert' state that the reactor 'might explode'. There wasn't much detail in the report, but the clear implication was that a weapons-type explosion was imminent. Nuc physics and engineering isn't my field, but even as an interested layman I know that that just isn't going to happen- even in a worst-case scenario. What passes for news coverage in this country is a national embarrassment.

39 posted on 03/12/2011 5:04:03 PM PST by Riley (The Fourth Estate is the Fifth Column.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: PA Engineer
If I hear one more time this is worse than Chernobyl, I am going to go ludicrously super critical.

I can't believe the hyperventilating going on over this, on CNN and by some here on FR.

Nuclear power seems to cause people to lose their ability to reason.

40 posted on 03/12/2011 5:05:20 PM PST by SteamShovel ("Does the noise in my head bother you?")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: All

Additional analysis on Zero Hedge now ... why this does not look like Chernobyl:

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/fukushima-explosion-update-core-presumed-intact-sea-water-used-bring-temperature-down-radiat

“The explosion at No. 1 generating set of the Fukushima nuclear plant in Japan, which took place today, will not be a repetition of the Chernobyl nuclear disaster,” said Valeriy Hlyhalo, deputy director of the Chernobyl nuclear safety centre.

He was quoted by Interfax news agency as saying Japanese reactors were better protected than Chernobyl, where just over 30 firefighters were killed in the explosion. The world’s worst civilian nuclear disaster, Chernobyl has also been blamed for thousands of deaths due to radiation-linked illness.

“Apart from that, these reactors are designed to work at a high seismicity zone, although what has happened is beyond the impact the plants were designed to withstand,” Hlyhalo said.

“Therefore, the consequences should not be as serious as after the Chernobyl nuclear disaster.”


41 posted on 03/12/2011 5:11:50 PM PST by Nobel_1 (bring on the Patriots!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Red_List_Patriot

And I bet you didn’t have plans for a historic level earthquake and a tsunami at the same time.


42 posted on 03/12/2011 5:15:26 PM PST by EBH ( Whether you eat your bread or see it vanish into a looter's stomach, is an absolute.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

Could the source of the cesium and iodine be from a compromised fuel pool and not the main reactor? The pool is up high in that cutaway.


43 posted on 03/12/2011 5:25:56 PM PST by NonValueAdded (Palin 2012: don't retreat, just restock [chg'd to comply w/ The Civility in Discourse Act of 2011])
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Eyes Unclouded

Thanks for answering, much appreciated.


44 posted on 03/12/2011 5:33:45 PM PST by SueRae (I can see November 2012 from my HOUSE!!!!!!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Eyes Unclouded

I wouldn’t be concerned about it.


45 posted on 03/12/2011 5:47:34 PM PST by meatloaf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Riley

“Driving home Friday evening, I heard an ABC Radio News’ ‘nuclear expert’ state that the reactor ‘might explode’.” I’d be more concerned about his head exploding. The reactor won’t.


46 posted on 03/12/2011 5:52:24 PM PST by meatloaf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: meatloaf

My point exactly. Well, apart from a well-deserved mocking of ABC Radio News.


47 posted on 03/12/2011 5:55:12 PM PST by Riley (The Fourth Estate is the Fifth Column.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: Eyes Unclouded

I had read that this was an older design but I didn’t realize they were that close to the end of useful life. Perhaps this will prove to be an opportunity to get a modern design built to replace this unit, if they can salvage it.

I also heard they were preparing to pump boric acid into one of the units to damp the nuclear reaction, and that implies near fatal damage to that unit. It will probably prove to be difficult to decommission but I do not think it will pose the risk of a major release, on the scale of a Chernobyl event.

I keep coming back to Chernobyl as the ultimate worst possible case accident for a nuclear reactor. The design of even these older model Japanese reactors are light-years beyond Chernobyl in safety and the chances of an extreme accident that exposes a burning core are extremely remote.


48 posted on 03/12/2011 5:57:36 PM PST by Bean Counter (Stout Hearts!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Nobel_1

God,I feel so stupid when I read this stuff.

I think I’ll just go back to praying and crossing my fingers.


49 posted on 03/12/2011 5:57:58 PM PST by Mears
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Nobel_1; PA Engineer; Red_List_Patriot
Thanks for a great thread, and sound, factual information on the Japanese reactors. You three FReepers are better than any nuclear "expert" the lamestream media has had on. I would to God that the public at large could read and understand this thread.

We need nuclear power now more than ever, and the fear-mongering that the lamestream media is doing just hurts any effort to expand construction of such plants in this country.

50 posted on 03/12/2011 6:28:59 PM PST by backwoods-engineer (Any politician who holds that the state accords rights is an oathbreaker and an "enemy... domestic.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-65 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson