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DC Museum Works to Save Thomas Jefferson‘s ’Cut & Paste’ Bible
The Blaze ^ | 3-12-11 | Meredith Jessup

Posted on 03/12/2011 6:50:19 PM PST by STARWISE

By literally cutting and pasting biblical passages demonstrating the life and lessons of Jesus Christ from several Bibles, Thomas Jefferson put together a book that he titled “The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth” during his retirement in 1820. The former president’s finished product would become known to historians as the Jefferson Bible.

"The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth" (CNN)

Nearly 200 years later, conservationists at the National Museum of American History are working to carefully preserve the 86-page book and preparing to put it on display in November.

Over time, the book’s brittle paper has become less flexible and prone to easy tears. But paper conservator Janice Stagnitto Ellis told CNN the real problem lies in the book’s binding.

French and English Bible verses pasted side-by-side in the Jefferson Bible (CNN) “Without doing modifications to the binding, we could open the book [to] about a 30-degree angle before the paper would be required to bend, which it couldn’t do,” she said. “It became un-exhibitable.”

The Smithsonian’s goal is to display the book propped opened to a 90-degree angle to allow museum visitors to glimpse Jefferson’s handy work, which includes passages from the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John in English, French, Latin and Greek — all pasted side by side so Jefferson could compare the various translations of Christ’s work.

“The Jefferson Bible is important today because of the unique insight it provides into the religious beliefs of the author of our Declaration of Independence, and the way in which it vividly reflects Jefferson’s own understanding of the First Amendment to the Constitution as it guarantees ‘freedom of religion,’” the museum’s website states. “At the very least, it is an artifact that resulted from the extraordinary mind of one of the nation’s most important founding fathers and Enlightenment thinkers.”

One of Jefferson's English "source" Bibles shows where the founding father cut out passages (CNN) To construct the Jefferson Bible, the nation’s third president used six different “source” Bibles — two in English, two in French and two that included both Greek and Latin. With an extra copy of each, Jefferson could use the front and back of pages without worrying about missing what‘s on the pages’ reverse side.

Jefferson also used his cut + paste method to alter some biblical grammar.

On one page, he apparently didn’t like the number of prepositions in a verse from Matthew that started, “For as in the days that were before the flood …“ He cut out the word ”as,“ changing the scripture to ”For in the days that were before the flood …”

The Smithsonian originally acquired the Jefferson Bible from his great-granddaughter in 1895 for $400. Starting in 1904, copies of the book were distributed to all newly elected members of Congress. The practice ended during the 1950s.

Also part of the Smithsonian display will be digitally scanned images of the book’s pages.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy; US: Virginia
KEYWORDS: bible; godsgravesglyphs; museum; presidents; religion; smithsonian; theframers; thomasjefferson
VIDEO

One of Jefferson's English "source" Bibles shows where the founding father cut out passages (CNN)

~~~

Notably, as learned and wordly as many of our Founders were, Jefferson included scriptural passages in French.

Yes, our blessed, brilliant and amazing Founding Fathers were indeed desirous of and guided by Judeo-Christian values in creating this most wonderful, and unique precious Republic .. if we can keep it. Please pray for America .. and for God's protection on us and on our brave military.

1 posted on 03/12/2011 6:50:21 PM PST by STARWISE
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To: STARWISE

Nobody is “brilliant” who takes a pair of scissors to God’s Word.


2 posted on 03/12/2011 6:53:04 PM PST by BenLurkin (This post is not a statement of fact. It is merely a personal opinion -- or humor -- or both)
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To: BenLurkin

So if he were a”Deist” why would he bother doing that?


3 posted on 03/12/2011 6:56:26 PM PST by Mmogamer (I refudiate the lamestream media, leftists and their prevaricutions.)
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To: onyx; penelopesire; maggief; hoosiermama; SE Mom; Fred Nerks; Red Steel; seekthetruth; ...

.. Ping!


4 posted on 03/12/2011 6:57:49 PM PST by STARWISE (The overlords are in place .. we are a nation under siege .. pray, go Galt & hunker down)
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To: BenLurkin

You’ve never cut and pasted a verse before?


5 posted on 03/12/2011 6:59:38 PM PST by ocean
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To: ocean

I think this version contains Christ’s ethical teachings but deletes the supernatural aspects.


6 posted on 03/12/2011 7:02:08 PM PST by TheDingoAteMyBaby
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**Note

The video purposely has NO sound


7 posted on 03/12/2011 7:04:42 PM PST by STARWISE (The overlords are in place .. we are a nation under siege .. pray, go Galt & hunker down)
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To: STARWISE; Pharmboy

· GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach ·
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 Excerpt, or Link only?
 


Thanks STARWISE.

Just adding to the catalog, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.
 

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8 posted on 03/12/2011 7:04:43 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: STARWISE

All great men have blind spots. Deliberately ignoring the miracles and deity of Jesus Christ was Jefferson’s.


9 posted on 03/12/2011 7:04:57 PM PST by backwoods-engineer (Any politician who holds that the state accords rights is an oathbreaker and an "enemy... domestic.")
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To: STARWISE
BTTT!
Help us preserve the Jefferson Bible.
Your tax-deductible contribution will help the Museum complete a full conservation treatment of the Jefferson Bible, a real national treasure.

10 posted on 03/12/2011 7:06:31 PM PST by RedMDer (restoration of our honor, dignity, and freedoms will save America. - Sarah Palin)
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To: BenLurkin

Judge not ... If he’d had a word processor and several online versions of the bible would it have been OK to cut and paste?

Strikes me that he might have been trying to distill the fundamental truths he’d found in the bible - perhaps for dolts like me that haven’t read the bible in years but might in a short compendium find salvation. Huh. Ya never know. ;-)


11 posted on 03/12/2011 7:08:44 PM PST by Tunehead54 (Nothing funny here ;-)
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To: STARWISE
Bible's broken; contradictions, false logistics. Doesn't make sense.

Don't flame me, just posting a picture and comment that I thought relevant.

12 posted on 03/12/2011 7:12:51 PM PST by listenhillary (Social Justice is the epitome of injustice.)
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To: RedMDer

Thanks, Red !

One of the comments on The Blaze, which is reasonable to me:

“It is not a Bible. It is a collection of scriptures for his own use and study. Come on people, everyone of us do the same thing. The only difference is you or I are not famous.

Our “notes” will be thrown away, Jefferson’s “notes” are to be saved.”


13 posted on 03/12/2011 7:15:49 PM PST by STARWISE (The overlords are in place .. we are a nation under siege .. pray, go Galt & hunker down)
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To: TheDingoAteMyBaby

Since Jefferson cut and pasted passages of Jesus speaking about the Father, God, he doesn’t appear to be editing out what secularists consider the supernatural God. It appears Thomas Jeffereson took the Bible quite literally and certainly applied the laws of God and the teachings of Jesus the Son to the founding of this country.


14 posted on 03/12/2011 7:16:16 PM PST by RowdyFFC (.)
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To: RedMDer; All

A pdf of the Jefferson Bible

http://www.pattonhq.com/links/uccministry/jeffbible.pdf


15 posted on 03/12/2011 7:17:07 PM PST by STARWISE (The overlords are in place .. we are a nation under siege .. pray, go Galt & hunker down)
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To: Tunehead54; ocean
Sadly, Jefferson's edits were made to satisfy and reflect his own personal rejection of Our Lord as God. He removed all references to Christ's resurrection, miracles and virgin birth, etc.

As one commentator says: "According to Jefferson, when Jesus left the man who had been blind since birth (John 9) the man was still blind, Malchus was left with his ear cut off and Lazarus was left rotting in the tomb."

16 posted on 03/12/2011 7:17:47 PM PST by BenLurkin (This post is not a statement of fact. It is merely a personal opinion -- or humor -- or both)
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To: STARWISE

Thomas Jefferson Notes on the State of Virginia, Query 18
Categories: God
Date: 1781
And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever.

Thomas Jefferson First Inaugural Address
Categories: Religion and Morality
Date: April 4, 1801
[B]enign religion, professed, in deed, and practiced in various forms, yet all of them inculcating honesty, truth, temperance, gratitude, and the love of man; acknowledging and adoring and overruling Providence, which, by all its dispensations proves that it delights in the happiness of man here and his greater happiness hereafter


17 posted on 03/12/2011 7:22:12 PM PST by patlin (Ignorance is Bliss for those who choose to wear rose colored glasses)
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To: BenLurkin

Source or link, please?


18 posted on 03/12/2011 7:27:32 PM PST by FreedomOfExpression
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To: FreedomOfExpression

http://www.discoveret.org/lcoc/news/00n0504.htm

see also:

Smithsonian undertakes $225,000 effort to restore the Jefferson Bible
Posted on March 11, 2011

When Thomas Jefferson was 77, he went back to a project he had been thinking about for decades. Sitting in Monticello, using candlelight and a knife, he cut New Testament verses in four different languages from six books to create his own bible. Jefferson, saying he was selecting his own “morsels of morality,” removed verses on any miracles, as well as the Resurrection.

http://zionica.com/2011/03/11/smithsonian-undertakes-225000-effort-to-restore-the-jefferson-bible/

Basically the same articel here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/10/AR2011031005821.html

And see also:

Separating ‘Diamonds’ from the ‘Dunghill’; The fascinating history of the ‘Jefferson Bible’

Done with his official work for the day, Thomas Jefferson sat in the new presidential mansion in Washington in 1804, and opened his Bible -— not to pray, but to cut.

He scoured the text for Jesus’ greatest teachings, sliced out his favorite portions and glued them into an empty volume. He called it “The Philosophy of Jesus.” In 1819, he started over and created a new version called “The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth,” often referred to now as The Jefferson Bible.

In Jefferson’s version, Jesus was not divine:

The virgin birth - gone.
Christ’s bodily resurrection - gone.
The miracles of the loaves, walking on water, raising Lazarus - none of them made Jefferson’s book.

Read more: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Faith-Tools/The-Founding-Faith-Archive/Separating-Diamonds-From-The-Dunghill.aspx#ixzz1GRl5t3VD


19 posted on 03/12/2011 7:36:16 PM PST by BenLurkin (This post is not a statement of fact. It is merely a personal opinion -- or humor -- or both)
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To: STARWISE
Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush, 1803:

My views of (the Christian religion)... are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from that anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be - sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he never claimed any other.

Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Charles Thomson, 1816:

I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus - very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all the characteristic dogmas from what its Author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the hethen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great Reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were He to return on earth, would not recognize one feature.

Raven6:

So, he chose to focus on the pure teachings of Jesus Christ... and to carry with him those teachings in what he considered to be the most pure form available - by removing all but the words of Jesus Christ. I will not fault him for that, for in my eyes it is no different than carrying a "red letter" version of the KJV so that the reader may more readily view the words of the savior.

I once was very amused by a bumper sticker I saw that said "If it is not the King James Version, it is not the Bible!" I so terribly wanted to ask the driver "Well what was it then when it was still in Greek and in Hebrew?" The bible has been translated over the years in order to allow man to better understand God's word... I consider the message to be the inspired word of God, but I do not consider the paper and ink itself to be "holy." That does not mean that I treat a physical bible with disrespect... (I treat all bound books with respect - I treasure my books!) It just means I understand the difference between the message and the media that transmits it. (The religion of peace, on the other hand, goes ballistic if you let a koran touch the floor.)

For a good biography on Jefferson, along with a good source of quotes from him on a variety of subjects, I suggest: The Real Thomas Jefferson; Allison, Maxfield, Cook and, Skousen; National Center for Constitutional Studies, 1983, 2008. This is part of a series I consider most valuable: The American Classic Series. The other two books of the series cover George Washington and Benjamin Franklin.

Regards,
Raven6

20 posted on 03/12/2011 7:41:52 PM PST by Raven6 (The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either.)
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To: STARWISE

Thanks for the link. I just saved it and the pdf. It is very important for all to realize and keep the fact that our founders were religious men.


21 posted on 03/12/2011 7:45:45 PM PST by RedMDer (restoration of our honor, dignity, and freedoms will save America. - Sarah Palin)
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To: Tunehead54

He wanted a book that contained only direct quotes.


22 posted on 03/12/2011 7:47:08 PM PST by org.whodat
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To: listenhillary

What is that image of?


23 posted on 03/12/2011 7:49:54 PM PST by Vision ("Did I not say to you that if you would believe, you would see the glory of God?" John 11:40)
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To: Raven6

If Christ is but a moral philosopher, if the resurrection is a lie, then we should all just eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.

You can look it up.

In the Bible.


24 posted on 03/12/2011 7:50:36 PM PST by rogue yam
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To: BenLurkin
Nobody is “brilliant” who takes a pair of scissors to God’s Word.

"God's Word" was written by a bunch of different "people", over many centuries, in a wide variety of languages, suffering through a wide variety of translations, omissions, additions, and twists of meanings.

Reasonable people understand this. Some pieces are useful for historical purposes; some for moral purposes; some for strategic purposes; some for entertainment; some for naught.

People have used the scriptures more to control and manipulate other people for their own selfish and devious reasons, than in the cause of freedom. I would trust Thomas Jefferson more than any of the religious clerics he regularly chastised.

25 posted on 03/12/2011 7:54:45 PM PST by meadsjn (Sarah 2012, or sooner)
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To: Vision

Firefly - the series.

She was fixing Shepherd Book’s bible. She felt bad about it and told him later “I tore these out of your symbol and they turned into paper. But I want to put them back.”


26 posted on 03/12/2011 7:56:55 PM PST by listenhillary (Social Justice is the epitome of injustice.)
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To: RedMDer; All

Welcome .. ;)

***NOTE

If any of you get TBN - Trinity Broadcast Network - right now ‘Drive Thru History’ is showing Jefferson’s Monticello
and his research and decisions to build it.

There’s much about his character and practices.

If you’re registered with them, you can also watch it online NOW.

http://www.tbn.org/watch-us


27 posted on 03/12/2011 8:23:09 PM PST by STARWISE (The overlords are in place .. we are a nation under siege .. pray, go Galt & hunker down)
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To: RedMDer; All

Now, they’re at Madison’s home, Mountpelier.

So, it must be all about the homes of the Founders.


28 posted on 03/12/2011 8:28:09 PM PST by STARWISE (The overlords are in place .. we are a nation under siege .. pray, go Galt & hunker down)
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To: BenLurkin

Ben, who was the commentator. I would like to check that one out. Thanks, Healy.


29 posted on 03/12/2011 8:52:31 PM PST by healy61
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To: healy61

Please see post #19.


30 posted on 03/12/2011 9:01:17 PM PST by BenLurkin (This post is not a statement of fact. It is merely a personal opinion -- or humor -- or both)
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To: STARWISE

bump for later


31 posted on 03/12/2011 9:09:37 PM PST by goldfinch
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To: rogue yam
Go back and read the first letter I quoted... Jefferson makes reference to being a follower of the doctrines of Christ - one of which was "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me."

I do not believe he looked upon Christ as a mere philosopher... He just sought to study Christ's teachings in a more pure form. The fact that he did not include the stories of the miracles and the resurrection from the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John within his compilation does not mean that he didn't believe that these things happened. I have seen no evidense of Jefferson referring to the resurrection as a lie... (I myself believe they happened, but after I have studied them and understand the miracles and the resurrection, I am drawn not to continous study of just those miracles and the resurection itself, but even more so to the teachings of Christ so that I may live a more Christian life and through the faith that in doing so I may enjoy the everlasting life as is promised in John 3:16.) A study of Jefferson's letters indicate that he believed the gospels as written, but that he disliked the impure doctrine that man had created within certain churches (what some people refer to as "high worship") which was not part of Christ's teachings.

Raven6

32 posted on 03/12/2011 9:11:41 PM PST by Raven6 (The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either.)
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To: rogue yam
Go back and read the first letter I quoted... Jefferson makes reference to being a follower of the doctrines of Christ - one of which was "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me."

I do not believe he looked upon Christ as a mere philosopher... He just sought to study Christ's teachings in a more pure form. The fact that he did not include the stories of the miracles and the resurrection from the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John within his compilation does not mean that he didn't believe that these things happened. I have seen no evidense of Jefferson referring to the resurrection as a lie... (I myself believe they happened, but after I have studied them and understand the miracles and the resurrection, I am drawn not to continous study of just those miracles and the resurection itself, but even more so to the teachings of Christ so that I may live a more Christian life and through the faith that in doing so I may enjoy the everlasting life as is promised in John 3:16.) A study of Jefferson's letters indicate that he believed the gospels as written, but that he disliked the impure doctrine that man had created within certain churches (what some people refer to as "high worship") which was not part of Christ's teachings.

Raven6

33 posted on 03/12/2011 9:12:45 PM PST by Raven6 (The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either.)
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To: listenhillary

34 posted on 03/12/2011 9:14:15 PM PST by Stonewall Jackson (Democrats: "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.")
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To: STARWISE

Thank you for sharing. We must all still believe in the American Dream. It just can’t be died, not now, not ever.


35 posted on 03/12/2011 9:38:09 PM PST by cameraeye (A happy (sometimes sad) kufir!)
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To: STARWISE

Jefferson was really smart, but there were occasions when he completely lost his ability to think clearly.


36 posted on 03/12/2011 10:21:37 PM PST by lurk
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To: meadsjn

You are absolutely wrong...I really dislike when someone who does not believe in Christ tries to pretend they are an expert. The bible is God’s words...God works through people all the time and he obviously worked through the people who “wrote” the bible.

The bible has been translated extremely accurately...except for perhaps cultish bibles or such. Indeed, it is amazing how perfect the translations are throughout history. In the last couple of years a pendant was discovered that was over 3,000 years old. It had part of an Old Testament verse on it...which when translated was exactly as worded today.

The Bible is considered very accurate for Archaeologists and Historians, I think those are reasonable people...don’t you?

You are absolutely ignorant and truly bigoted in regards to your statement “People have used the scriptures more to control and manipulate other people for their own selfish and devious reasons” I would challenge you to name any entity in the history of the world that has done more good for mankind than Christianity. You have no clue how much good is done each day, selfless acts of kindness and compassion by literally millions of Christians every day.

It is okay to be ignorant meadsjn...but it is truly foolish to be so proud of your ignorance.


37 posted on 03/12/2011 11:43:16 PM PST by Wpin ("I Have Sworn Upon the Altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny...")
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To: Wpin
I would challenge you to name any entity in the history of the world that has done more good for mankind than Christianity. You have no clue how much good is done each day, selfless acts of kindness and compassion by literally millions of Christians every day.

I will take that challenge. You are correct that much good in done by millions of Christians every day; but much good is also done every day by non-Christians. Much non-good is also done every day by people of both groups, in spite of all disclaimers to the contrary.

As far as some divinely-inspired entity doing more for mankind than Christianity, I would humbly submit that the people and ideas that brought forth our Declaration of Independence, our US Constitution, and the concepts that were produced and/or consolidated during that Age of Reason, have done more for mankind than all the religions and politics of the preceding many thousands of years. And no, there is no biblical basis for any of our founding documents, other than the cursory "appeal to Divine Providence", certain natural and inalienable rights bestowed by our "Creator", and a few other respectful and generic references to a God that, deliberately, cannot be claimed by any particular congregation or sect of any particular religion.

Nowhere in biblical history, neither in the Old Testament, nor the New Testament, is there any example of a society that even pretended to respect people's rights to life, liberty, and property; or of the freedom of people to worship as they saw fit; or a concept of government of, for, and by the people; or any of the other rights that we take for granted; and on, and on, and on.

Throughout most of biblical history, life was brutal and short, barbarity was the norm, and the only concept of freedom was the superstition that some merciful life after the usual untimely death would be slightly less brutal, barbarous, and short.

Compared to any and every society depicted in biblical history, life for most people under the US Constition, despite any real or perceived flaws, has been more like Heaven than any of the people in the Bible could even have dreamed. Travel to some foreign countries, travel enough, and you will eventually realize this is still true for most people in most nations today. Millions of people in other countries are still risking their lives to get here.

It is okay to be ignorant meadsjn...but it is truly foolish to be so proud of your ignorance.

Look in the mirror. What you see will be a whole lot of true and willful ignorance. If you have the courage, ask God to help you see the truth; ask Him every day.

I am a Christian; have never belonged to or claimed any other religion. I am not ignorant, neither of the Bible, nor of many other fields of study. I do not claim to know everything; thus I am capable of learning new stuff all the time.

Jefferson had many good things to say that were inspired by the religious fruitcakes of his day. Here's a couple.

"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
Thomas Jefferson

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
Thomas Jefferson

38 posted on 03/13/2011 1:30:44 AM PST by meadsjn (Sarah 2012, or sooner)
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To: Wpin
Since you also used this Jefferson quote in your tagline, you might wish to know the context in which it was written.

"Answers.com - Thomas Jefferson wrote I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. What does it mean"

Answer: This is a quote from a letter Thomas has written to his friend Benjamin Rush, dated Sep 23, 1800. He was serving as Vice President to John Adams, at the time. In context he was discussing his philosophical views on Christianity. The full quote is as follows;


I promised you a letter on Christianity, which I have not
forgotten. On the contrary, it is because I have reflected on it,
that I find much more time necessary for it than I can at present
dispose of. I have a view of the subject which ought to displease
neither the rational Christian nor Deists, and would reconcile many
to a character they have too hastily rejected. I do not know that it
would reconcile the _genus irritabile vatum_ who are all in arms
against me. Their hostility is on too interesting ground to be
softened. The delusion into which the X. Y. Z. plot shewed it
possible to push the people; the successful experiment made under the
prevalence of that delusion on the clause of the constitution, which,
while it secured the freedom of the press, covered also the freedom
of religion, had given to the clergy a very favorite hope of
obtaining an establishment of a particular form of Christianity thro'
the U. S.; and as every sect believes its own form the true one,
every one perhaps hoped for his own, but especially the Episcopalians
& Congregationalists. The returning good sense of our country
threatens abortion to their hopes, & they believe that any portion of
power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes.
And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god,
eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.
But this is all they have to fear from me: & enough too in their
opinion, & this is the cause of their printing lying pamphlets
against me, forging conversations for me with Mazzei, Bishop Madison,
&c., which are absolute falsehoods without a circumstance of truth to
rest on; falsehoods, too, of which I acquit Mazzei & Bishop Madison,
for they are men of truth.

In the above quote Jefferson sets forth his belief that the First Amendment separates Church and State and precludes the establishment of a state religion, which is the "tyranny over the mind of man" that Jefferson opposes. He adds that religious practitioners have nothing more to fear from him, other than his opposition to any scheme to establish their own sect as a state religion.

Note: There are comments associated with this question. See the discussion page to add to the conversation.

39 posted on 03/13/2011 10:38:52 AM PDT by meadsjn (Sarah 2012, or sooner)
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To: meadsjn

Sorry it has taken so long to reply...I am pretty busy right now. Indeed, I am going to have to make this rather brief...I have to get going.

There is absolutely no equivocation between the good done by Christians and the good done by non-Christians. You are probably simply not aware of the history and current state of Christians and their propensity to serve Jesus, which directly relates to the good deeds done for humanity. I am a member of the American Baptist Men’s Disaster Relief and that is where I began to get an inkling of how widespread and a rough idea of the scope of Christian works being done. Right now, today meadsjn there are literally over a million Christians doing incredible good for mankind...without pay, oftentimes enduring hardship and even danger as we recently saw when the pirates killed those four American Christians (who travel passing out bibles)off the coast of Somalia. It would be very interesting, but probably impossible to actually measure the economic value donated on an annual basis. It would probably rival all but the top couple GDP’s of nations.

You are sorely mistaken about our Independence and Constitution being secular...indeed our Founding Fathers fully understood that these were a divine creation...that as mortal men they were incapable by themselves of such works.

You may wish to read how Pope John Paul ll thought of The Age of Reason. Indeed, he lived through some of the products from that age, when man decided he was God, through the Nazi and Communist occupations of Poland. I am not Catholic, but have long respected Pope John Paul ll as one of the all time great philosophers.

Secular government will always ultimately turn evil, simply put...because evil is a force and when we remove God from our lives (and/or government) we provide an opening for evil to influence us. The Nazi’s and Communists had/have justification and reason behind their horrific atrocities. However, they made the mistake of removing God’s morality from their lives and their governments.

You may want to research a little more of the bible for our philosophy of individual liberty (try free will that God gave us) and Republic (read about Moses setting up a system of government under God’s commands).

Our very basis of law is founded on the Ten Commandments...maybe that is why the Ten Commandments are displayed at the Supreme Court...

You really do need to read your bible more carefully, sounds like you have read propaganda and not studied the bible. I am not a bible scholar by any means and have found most of what you find lacking. Instead of reading others opinions I challenge you to read the actual bible...

One example of where you are incorrect is where you state “Nowhere in biblical history, neither in the Old Testament, nor the New Testament, is there any example of a society that even pretended to respect people’s rights to life, liberty, and property;...”

I think your bias shows in that statement...you neglect to consider the Christian society which indeed respected life, liberty and property. Don’t even try to argue that, you will just be embarrassed.

If you are a Christian, I am not convinced, you are obviously very ignorant of your own faith. But, that is your right. Your misconceptions of Jefferson is a prime example. You, like other non-Christians take out of context what Jefferson wrote in personal letters to “prove” some nonsense, like he wasn’t Christian or that he believed people should be protected from religion when he actually believed people should be protected from government and that government had a knack for abusing its power...btw, not just in religion. He firmly understood that God was involved in creating our government and that if we ever lost that understanding our country would “be hell”.

Here are a few quotes from Jefferson to counter your quotes from Jefferson:

“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

“I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.”

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]


40 posted on 03/16/2011 4:44:33 AM PDT by Wpin ("I Have Sworn Upon the Altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny...")
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To: listenhillary
"Don't flame me, just posting a picture and comment that I thought relevant."

Ahhh but you forgot the best part of the scene!

Book: River, you don't fix the Bible.
River: It's broken. It doesn't make sense.
Book: It's not about making sense. It's about believing in something, and letting that belief be real enough to change your life. It's about faith. You don't fix faith, River. It fixes you.

41 posted on 03/16/2011 4:54:29 AM PDT by Mad Dawgg (If you're going to deny my 1st Amendment rights then I must proceed to the 2nd one...)
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