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Who Won in Wisconsin?
Townhall.com ^ | March 15, 2011 | Mona Charen

Posted on 03/15/2011 5:48:05 AM PDT by Kaslin

Who won the battle of Wisconsin? Republican Gov. Scott Walker got a legislative victory. On the other hand, Democrats, with a wary eye on 2012 and noting the worrying drop in support for President Obama in union-heavy states like Pennsylvania and Michigan, claim to be delighted that Walker has picked this fight.

"Republicans have done organized labor a great favor by putting the movement back in (the) labor movement, creating a level of passion and activism for workers' rights that hasn't been seen in generations," crowed Democratic strategist Mike Lux.

Maybe so. Though the three-week tantrum by union protesters in Madison (which escalated to harassment of Republican legislators by the Party of Civility), along with the flight of Democratic legislators to Illinois may well offend more Americans than it energizes.

Polling is equivocal. A national poll by Rasmussen found that 48 percent supported Walker while only 38 percent favored the unions. A highly significant 56 percent of independents sided with the governor. On the other hand, a CBS/New York Times poll found that 56 percent of those surveyed opposed reducing pay or benefits of public employees in order to balance state budgets, and 60 percent opposed weakening the bargaining rights of public employees.

Let's stipulate that polls can suffer from tendentious wording. Nevertheless, the public's response to the Madison imbroglio suggests that Republican budget cutters have not completely made their case.

Republicans may need to put greater emphasis on the difference between private- and public-sector unions. In a private-sector company, when unions negotiate with management, there is a limiting factor at work -- the company must remain profitable or everyone is out of a job. In the case of public-sector unions, "management" consists of elected officials, and the city, state, or federal government is the employer. Profit or loss is irrelevant, so there is no limiting factor. If unions receive more and more generous pay and benefits, it's the taxpayers who are on the hook, not "management."

Franklin D. Roosevelt was as radical as Scott Walker. In 1937, he said, "All government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management." Former AFL-CIO president George Meany agreed, saying, "It is impossible to bargain collectively with the government."

In the private sector, unions do not control management and vice versa. In the case of public-employee unions, "management" -- i.e., public officials -- often receive generous contributions from the very unions with whom they are negotiating -- permitting unions to choose "management" to form a cozy, if corrupt, circle.

During the last election cycle, the American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees contributed $90 million to Democratic candidates. In 2006, then New Jersey Gov. Jon Corzine addressed a rally of 10,000 public employees in Trenton, declaring, "We will fight for a fair contract." Corzine was supposed to be management. With whom was he fighting?

The answer, as even Democratic governors like Andrew Cuomo and Jerry Brown are discovering, is other middle-class people -- i.e., the taxpayers. The taxpayers are the ones left holding the bag when elected officials team up with public-sector unions. Middle-class taxpayers, only about 65 percent of whom have access to retirement plans, are picking up the tab for the 90 percent of government employees who do. Nearly 70 percent of lower wage government workers receive health benefits, compared with only 38 percent of private-sector workers.

Many state workers avail themselves of the option to retire in their early to mid-50s at nearly full pay. If they were New Jersey teachers, they can collect free health benefits for life.

The results are clear: New York has a 2012 budget gap of $9 billion; California's is more than $20 billion; Illinois' is $11 billion. The vast majority of middle-class taxpayers, whose pay and benefits are lower than those of the public-sector workers, must pay in higher taxes or reduced services.

Democratic Gov. Jerry Brown has asked California state workers for give-backs of 8 to 10 percent in salary, saying, "We have no choice ... We must now return California to fiscal responsibility and get our state on the road to economic recovery and job growth."

Mike Lux: Before you celebrate, have a look at Sacramento.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Extended News; US: Wisconsin
KEYWORDS: democrats; fleebaggers; monacharen; unioncorruption; unions; wisconsinshowdown

1 posted on 03/15/2011 5:48:06 AM PDT by Kaslin
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To: Kaslin

Like labor leadership was ever going to urge their membership to vote Republican. Give us a break.


2 posted on 03/15/2011 5:50:00 AM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: Kaslin

CBS/New York Times poll found that 56 percent of those surveyed opposed reducing pay or benefits of public employees in order to balance state budgets, and 60 percent opposed weakening the bargaining rights of public employees.


I find this very hard to believe. Especially in cases where public employees have better pay/benefits than the majority of taxpayers.


3 posted on 03/15/2011 5:51:20 AM PDT by rbg81
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To: Kaslin
"Republicans have done organized labor a great favor by putting the movement back in (the) labor movement, creating a level of passion and activism for workers' rights that hasn't been seen in generations,"

Sorry, not buying it. People who are winning don't demand to examine payrolls and customer lists for future intimidation.
4 posted on 03/15/2011 5:52:24 AM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: rbg81

I’m betting this poll was taken in heavily union areas.

The media are really great at skewing a poll to meet their agenda.


5 posted on 03/15/2011 5:53:21 AM PDT by Le Chien Rouge
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To: Kaslin

voters


6 posted on 03/15/2011 5:54:31 AM PDT by John 3_19-21 (For government to give anyone a benefit they must first take it from someone else.)
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To: cripplecreek

Agree. I just don’t see that the unions won anything. Nor will they win in Ohio. Our reps, who talked to us about two weeks ago, seemed pretty calm yet convicted in insisting that they had to deal with these issues, and there was only one way, break the gubmint unions.


7 posted on 03/15/2011 5:55:04 AM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: Kaslin

That probably won’t be known for some time. Depends on how the recall efforts do and the elections in 2012 and 2014.


8 posted on 03/15/2011 5:55:18 AM PDT by K-Stater
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To: Le Chien Rouge

Or just making it up out of whole cloth.


9 posted on 03/15/2011 5:56:39 AM PDT by Walkingfeather
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To: Kaslin
I predicted several weeks ago that when the brawl was over in Madison, and the collective bargaining privleges were trimmed, the left would still claim "big victory".
10 posted on 03/15/2011 5:59:44 AM PDT by Redleg Duke (I DO NOT BELIEVE THE LIBERAL MEDIA!)
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To: AndyJackson

Rush Limbaugh has always said that you don’t win by losing. The Republicans won Wisconsin, the Democrats, Labor, and their Communist handlers lost.


11 posted on 03/15/2011 6:02:41 AM PDT by MuttTheHoople (Democrats- Forgetting 9/11 since 9/12/01)
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To: Kaslin
On December 15, 2010, Rahm Emanuel met privately with Chicago’s labor union leaders:

“The sticking issue for all of us is the pension issue,’said a labor activist who attended the meeting with Mr. Emanuel. ‘ can’t tell my members we are going to support a guy who is going to cut your pensions.’ The labor leader and others who attended the meeting said they did not want to be identified for fear that Mr. Emanuel would retaliate if he were elected.”

Emanuel informs union leaders of intention to cut pensions, not just for new hires..so they kept their members in the dark.

Feb 22, 2011 ... Rahm Emanuel declared victory in the Chicago mayor's race

My Illinois friend remarked: "Rahm knows where the bodies are buried."[an expression]

12 posted on 03/15/2011 6:02:56 AM PDT by fight_truth_decay
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To: LS

A couple weeks ago we stripped the unions of between 16 and 20 thousand forced members here in Michigan. The teachers are screaming about being treated like slaves. The strategy of coercion and threats is being ramped up.

They’re “winning” like Charlie Sheen.


13 posted on 03/15/2011 6:03:08 AM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: Kaslin

With the LSM it will be hard for the GOP to get out the correct message. We must keep working hard to get the truth and the fact out there. The libtards own the media.


14 posted on 03/15/2011 6:04:31 AM PDT by Qwackertoo (New Day In America November 03, 2010)
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To: Kaslin

The key to the public union demise is giving state government employees the right to opt out of automatic union dues collection.

I’m betting that given a choice, at least half will opt out.


15 posted on 03/15/2011 6:10:22 AM PDT by MNnice
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To: Kaslin

The Tea Party and the people who voted in November won.


16 posted on 03/15/2011 6:10:53 AM PDT by TexasFreeper2009 (Obama = Carter 2.0 The Epic Fail Edition)
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To: rbg81

meanwhile the latest generic ballot results show Republicans with a 46% to 37% lead over Democrats.

That’s all that matters, we are WINNING!


17 posted on 03/15/2011 6:13:08 AM PDT by TexasFreeper2009 (Obama = Carter 2.0 The Epic Fail Edition)
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To: Kaslin

“Republicans have done organized labor a great favor by putting the movement back in (the) labor movement, creating a level of passion and activism for workers’ rights that hasn’t been seen in generations,” crowed Democratic strategist Mike Lux.

Republicans didn’t do it. The labor movement and the Democrat party created a situation that almost ended in riots, and almost created a Constututional crisis, all over a change in law that put WI public unions on the same playing field as federal employees and numerous other states. This was completely and purposely orchestrated by people wanting Obama re-elected.


18 posted on 03/15/2011 6:16:00 AM PDT by KansasGirl
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To: rbg81

they need to poll on the question “Are you willing to have your taxes raised in order to maintain current levels of pay and benefits for public employees?”


19 posted on 03/15/2011 6:16:51 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: fight_truth_decay

Even Democrat governors and legislatures smell the coffee. There’s no way underwater states (of which IL is one of those in the worst shape) can balance their budgets without renegotiating the public workers’ contracts. To do anything else would just be nibbling around the edges.

Negating the collective bargaining privileges is key to the process because it takes away the power of unions to buy off sympathetic politicians who will give them everything they want-taxpayers be damned.

The polls that show support for unions are the result of how little people know about where the big pieces of pie are in the local, state and federal budgets and a fundamental misunderstanding of what collective bargaining is.

Wisconsin brought this whole issue to the forefront and it was very instructive to many. More battles such as that will help inform the public. Walker was quite articulate in making his points.


20 posted on 03/15/2011 6:17:26 AM PDT by randita
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To: All
Wisconsin (with other states following) has got the Dems scared big time.

A key provision of Walker's WI law is not only to eviscerate unions' bargaining power but ALSO the state's obligation to collect union dues out of employee's paychecks---(most of which goes to Dem campaigns).

The libs are paranoid that Obama did not join them in WI as he promised he would during the campaign. He couldn't go----B/C he couldn't appear to side with violent union workers intent on keeping collective bargaining "rights" ...rights Ohaha's army of federal employees do not have.

=====================================

THIS SAYS A LOT Obama's recent Boston fundraiser started out as a $5,000 a plate then dropped to $500 a plate ... but he still could not fill the room——ended up talking to a little over 100 people.

Heh---nice to see Ohaha between a rock and a hard place. In a word----l-o-s-e-r.

21 posted on 03/15/2011 6:17:57 AM PDT by Liz (A taxpayer voting for Obama is like a chicken voting for Col Sanders.)
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To: Kaslin

It’s over unions.

Everyone must sacrifice. Your boss says so.

On a side—If the healthcare bill was so great why
are they giving all their friends waivers?


22 posted on 03/15/2011 6:18:19 AM PDT by TribalPrincess2U (They don't need to do another 911. They have BHO and the Fleebaggers.)
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To: MNnice
The key to the public union demise is giving state government employees the right to opt out of automatic union dues collection.

Yes and over time as new people come in and the old retire more and more will opt of paying union dues.

23 posted on 03/15/2011 6:20:10 AM PDT by YankeeReb
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To: Kaslin

The fair thing to do would be for the Union to give back to the members an amount equivalent to what they give to the democratic party, stop supporting Democrats and or Republicans
and let the Union members support the party of their choice.
I know this make too much sense to be seriously considered by A) the Union, or B)the Democratic party who forever spout fairness. They wouldn’t recognize fairness if it bit them in the ass.


24 posted on 03/15/2011 6:21:11 AM PDT by greyfox (If I were a Democrat I'd be pushing for the fairness doctrine too.)
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To: Kaslin; Mrs. B.S. Roberts

A poll commissioned by the NY Times...right!!! Kindly refer to my tagline. Thank you.


25 posted on 03/15/2011 6:22:56 AM PDT by CaptainAmiigaf (NY TIMES: "We print the news as it fits our views")
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To: Kaslin; ding_dong_daddy_from_dumas; stephenjohnbanker; DoughtyOne; calcowgirl; Gilbo_3; NFHale; ...
RE :”Polling is equivocal. A national poll by Rasmussen found that 48 percent supported Walker while only 38 percent favored the unions. A highly significant 56 percent of independents sided with the governor. On the other hand, a CBS/New York Times poll found that 56 percent of those surveyed opposed reducing pay or benefits of public employees in order to balance state budgets, and 60 percent opposed weakening the bargaining rights of public employees. Let's stipulate that polls can suffer from tendentious wording. Nevertheless, the public’s response to the Madison imbroglio suggests that Republican budget cutters have not completely made their case. Republicans may need to put greater emphasis on the difference between private- and public-sector unions. In a private-sector company, when unions negotiate with management, there is a limiting factor at work — the company must remain profitable or everyone is out of a job. In the case of public-sector unions, “management” consists of elected officials, and the city, state, or federal government is the employer. Profit or loss is irrelevant, so there is no limiting factor. If unions receive more and more generous pay and benefits, it's the taxpayers who are on the hook, not “management.

The advice above about separating public sector unions from private sector ones politically (conceptually) is smart. Watch the progressives/liberals on MSNBC. They do the opposite and equate rhetorically the public sector unions with all workers. They try to create a picture of ‘the rich’ only paying for the public services like schools and that being overly generous to public workers somehow benefits the private sector worker who ends up footing the bill.

1) Control the message, 2) Split the opposition

26 posted on 03/15/2011 6:31:07 AM PDT by sickoflibs ("It's not the taxes, the redistribution is the federal spending=tax delayed")
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To: Kaslin

The unions have actually taken out tv ads here in Wisconsin showing supposed union members crying and moaning because their paychecks will now be less since the mean, evil, nasty Tyrant er Governor Walker is making them pay more in contributions to their health and pensions. The fact is they paid little or nothing before, and now they’re bawling because they have to pay a little. The Wisconsin GOP better counter that stuff quick. If the unions are successful in making it look like their nonexistent “rights” were taken away, the unions will ultimately win.


27 posted on 03/15/2011 6:33:22 AM PDT by driftless2 (For long-term happiness, learn how to play the accordion.)
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To: Kaslin

The unions have actually taken out tv ads here in Wisconsin showing supposed union members crying and moaning because their paychecks will now be less since the mean, evil, nasty Tyrant er Governor Walker is making them pay more in contributions to their health and pensions. The fact is they paid little or nothing before, and now they’re bawling because they have to pay a little. The Wisconsin GOP better counter that stuff quick. If the unions are successful in making it look like their nonexistent “rights” were taken away, the unions will ultimately win.


28 posted on 03/15/2011 6:34:56 AM PDT by driftless2 (For long-term happiness, learn how to play the accordion.)
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To: CaptainAmiigaf

Good tagline. It could also be “We print our views and call it the news”


29 posted on 03/15/2011 6:35:47 AM PDT by Newtoidaho (Liberals: drooling buffoons (politicians/media/ bureaucrats) backed by satanic goons (union thugs).)
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To: John 3_19-21
Voters and taxpayers!

Conservative Americans are starting to catch on to the 'us vs. them' attitude of the unions.

Libs can't get elected in this country without the spoils. Union dues are funneled to Dems as political campaign contributions (Can you say 'kickbacks?'). Union officials fight tooth and nail against 'paycheck protection' laws that give members a choice about how their money is spent.

View these leftist union leaders as thieves in the night. They won't stop until the money stops.

Fistful of dollars1sm

30 posted on 03/15/2011 6:36:25 AM PDT by BobP (The piss-stream media - Never to be watched again in my house)
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To: Kaslin
Who Won in Wisconsin?

Politically? Taxpayers.

The unions were shown to be selfish, and their win-win relationship with the Democratic party was clearly revealed. Unions IN GENERAL will be tainted from this display by the public sector unions.

Taxpayers are numerically superior to union members, this is a simple question to answer.

31 posted on 03/15/2011 6:36:33 AM PDT by wayoverontheright
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To: Kaslin

The unions and Dhims are pissed off that the Repubs were smarter than they were and used their own tactic of a deft use of the rules to pass the legislation.


32 posted on 03/15/2011 6:38:00 AM PDT by Wizdum (Wisdom is what you gain when things go wrong.)
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To: Kaslin
Wisconsin will benefit from having gone first and taken the heat.

Ohio, Michigan, Pennsylvania and many other states are going to have to negotiate {one way or the other} with their own unions and the mob that defecated and slept in the halls at the Wisconsin state house will be just a bad memory.

I've been going to town hall meetings with my PA state rep and senator and I'm very encouraged with the path that they are taking.

There are going to be some changes made in PA that are going to make the msm heads explode.

Stay tuned, I'll provide real details as soon as some of the proposed changes are brought into bill and then laws.

Some include school vouchers, voter ID, Castle Doctrine extension, new budget with no tax increase etc.

33 posted on 03/15/2011 6:47:07 AM PDT by USS Alaska (Nuke the terrorist savages, in honor of Standing Wolf.)
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Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

To: Kaslin

Methinks this is a case of “the squeaky wheel gets the grease”. The labor unions are hollering and getting lots of attention, but when everyday Wisconsinites head to the polls in the future, they’ll appreciate that the Governor did what he said was going to do.

Lots of squawking doesn’t necessarily mean a majority.

Kharis13


36 posted on 03/15/2011 7:14:18 AM PDT by Kharis13 (That noise you hear is our Founding Fathers spinning in their graves.)
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To: K-Stater

The faked pro-commyunion polls will be shown up as any recall of Gov. Walker will go nowhere. The recalls against the dumbdem pols could indeed.

After seeing the “commy-policeunion thug threat letter” to Wisc. businesses, its clear the commyunions did not do well. You don’t resort to threats when you win.


37 posted on 03/15/2011 7:38:12 AM PDT by dusttoyou ("Progressives" are wee-weeing all over themselves, Foc nobama)
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To: dusttoyou; All
If the public can be educated about the cozy deals the union is putting over at the taxpayers expense, we will win.

An excellent example is that most teachers benefit contracts insisted that they buy health insurance from a union owned company, at rates 60% higher than other companies. Guess where the extra money went? See the following article:

More districts now could drop insurance arm of teachers union

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2688475/posts

38 posted on 03/15/2011 7:47:00 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: Kaslin

We won, plain and simple. Tyrants do not go away easy so why expect the unions and democrats to give up their power easily? Let’s move on to the next battle...keep the Republican senators and Governor protected from recall. We can donate and volunteer to work for them. But, let’s move on to other states and send emails and phone calls to encourage pulling the plug on these corrupt unions and their democrat party puppets.


39 posted on 03/15/2011 7:55:23 AM PDT by Wpin ("I Have Sworn Upon the Altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny...")
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To: All
Wisconsin, it gets better: Returned Democrats can not vote. At all.
wispolitics.com | Sen.Fitzgerald / FR Posted by Madistan

From: Sen.Fitzgerald
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 3:52 PM
To: Legislative Senate Republicans
Subject: Senate Democrat voting privileges in standing committees

Dear Members,

With the return of the Senate Democrats this weekend, questions have arisen regarding Democrat members’ participation in Senate standing committee public hearings and executive sessions. Please note that all 14 Democrat senators are still in contempt of the Senate. Therefore, when taking roll call votes on amendments and bills during executive sessions, Senate Democrats’ votes will not be reflected in the Records of Committee Proceedings or the Senate Journal. They are free to attend hearings, listen to testimony, debate legislation, introduce amendments, and cast votes to signal their support/opposition, but those votes will not count, and will not be recorded. If you have any questions, feel free to contact my office. Thank you, Scott Fitzgerald Senate Majority Leader 13th Senate District (Excerpt) Read more at wispolitics.com ...

40 posted on 03/15/2011 8:05:47 AM PDT by Liz (A taxpayer voting for Obama is like a chicken voting for Col Sanders.)
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To: rbg81

Considering how many people are employed by the govt sector, 56% is about right.


41 posted on 03/15/2011 8:11:14 AM PDT by jch10 (Cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war...)
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To: Kaslin
It's not over, so it's early to say that somebody "won". We still have the recall elections to deal with, there are court challenges to deal with, and many of the the anti-union provisions take effect at the next contract (ie, not immediately, possibly up to three years from now).

If the legislation survives challenge, then Repubs have struck a mortal blow against government unions in WI. Union revenues will be greatly diminished, and union contributions form a major part of Dem campaign revenue, which would tend to handicap the Dem party in WI.

42 posted on 03/15/2011 8:14:39 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 ("It is only when we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything" -- Fight Club)
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To: rbg81

As Charen points out, look at the wording of the questions. The 56% opposing reduction of pay or benefits were obviously asked a skewed question.

In WI the question was not about reducing their pay or benefits at all. It was about the public employees being asked to contribute a minor amount to their own benefits.

That could be spun into a ‘reduction,’ as in a few less $ in their wallets, but not a reduction in salary nor in benefits.

So now, with the reaction of the public sector employee unions and the abandoning of their state by the Dem legislators, WI passed a bill whereby each of the public sector unions will have to be re-certified each and every year.

51% of all members (not just those voting) will have to be in favor of re-certifying, or the union is de-certified.
Initially, union members will turn out to vote, so that will most likely happen, but it’s going to be hard to sustain over time.

Overall, I’d say Walker won. Big.


43 posted on 03/15/2011 8:24:22 AM PDT by EDINVA
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To: Kaslin

Hillary Clinton. She’ll come charging in on a white horse and talk a good fight to the unions and government employees. Here comes Hillary!!!!!!!


44 posted on 03/15/2011 8:31:19 AM PDT by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: Kaslin; Avoiding_Sulla
Republicans may need to put greater emphasis on the difference between private- and public-sector unions.

That's Klavan's tactic all right. I don't think it terribly effective because too many people can't repeat the logic in conversation.

IMO, this one works, albeit with a lousy tag line ("tell Obama you've had enough" my a$$; should have been, "tell your friends").

45 posted on 03/15/2011 8:53:37 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (The environment is too complex and too important to manage by central planning.)
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To: Kaslin

Timing is everything. There’s still nearly two years for the scum to go back to sleep and forget all about the fun party and the bused-in college kids and homeless debris who did $75 million worth of damage to the state capitol building.


46 posted on 03/15/2011 8:57:59 AM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: Kaslin
Franklin D. Roosevelt was as radical as Scott Walker. In 1937, he said, "All government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management." Former AFL-CIO president George Meany agreed, saying, "It is impossible to bargain collectively with the government."

Now there's something I never heard before.
I could see TV ads that make lefty/commie heads explode.

47 posted on 03/15/2011 9:03:58 AM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: Liz

I’ve had a look at the various Obama Youth videos on YouTube. Very few delirious entries less than two years old.

If your description of the recent Boston fundraiser is accurate his base of support has narrowed immensely and even those who would die rather than criticize The One will not turn out for him.

The way he backpeddled from Wisconsin just days after committing the DNC and OFA to the fight says loads. Maybe Gov. Walker was smart in letting this clusterf***k go on for three weeks. America got an eyeful and earful watching these obnoxious thugs make a spectacle of themselves. The budget battle is just beginning but no way are most of the 14 dem senators going to allow themselves to be shanghaied again.


48 posted on 03/15/2011 5:05:31 PM PDT by sinanju
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To: PapaBear3625

I agree with the columnist who said our Dems would do better to rename themselves the “Labor Party,” like their Brit and Euro counterparts. That who they were always all about. The other constituencies are disposable.


49 posted on 03/15/2011 5:08:42 PM PDT by sinanju
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