Skip to comments.LIVE thread & Breaking News ~ Japan
Posted on 03/15/2011 8:13:35 AM PDT by SE Mom
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In Taro.........which was destroyed. The water went right over the walls.
Two things are obvious to me. It's not going to be the end of times but it will in all honesty in my opinion be worse than Chernobyl in the fact that we are dealing with 6 reactors worth of nuclear fuel radiation in some degree(isotope) or another and well yes not explosive but one hell of a mess.
I understand the heroic nature of those involved at the plants but by most accounts the reactors residual heat(decay) battle seems to be based on a wing and a prayer solution basis.
Regardless of what happens from here on out, I am going to stick to the prayer part of that equation and hope for the best.
Ping to see if you’re okay.
It’s the middle of the night there, right? 2:45 AM-ish?
In a resource poor Island, much could be recycled. Building materials in particular. Wood, trees into fiber board. Masonry and concrete would make good fill.
It would be a massive amount of work though,
San Onofre for one - also I believe there’s one in Oxnard?
There may not be a subduction zone in So Calif but thee certainly is one off Oregon coast which could send a tsunami south.
Ya know, I've been wondering something since the first days of this disaster.
Why couldn't they fly in backup generators from the git go???
I mean, they can fly heavy trucks by helocopter, why not generator units?? Restore the power and the problem fixes itself.
I just don't get it I guess. But then I'm not in the center seat over there.
After the 1964 Alaska quake they had to move a town. I hope that there is some sort of plan to either engineer a possible GREATER tsunami wall (if possible) or to build up the new areas where the main population will be at a higher elevation.
It would be a terrible mistake to rebuild these cities and then they have an identical earthquake and tsunami.
You know even having a discussion like this gives me a problem, I’m still in a sympathetic state of shock at all of this.
I like your description: Henny Penny and It’s Nothing.
It’s so frustrating trying to figure out what is going on. It’s obviously more than nothing, and hopefully it’s nothing too serious.
San Onofre for one - also I believe theres one in Oxnard?
A little further north than Oxnard — in San Luis Obispo near Cambria/Hearst Castle area.
I remember US providing power via nuclear subs in the Indonesian situation. (I think I remember this)
I’m pretty sure that they did manage to get smaller generating units in, but had trouble getting that solution to work. Not big enough, couldn’t make the connections. It’s been a couple of days.
I’m sure the Japanese will handle the rubble piles in the most efficient way possible. They’re as good, or better at such things, as any country on the planet.
FYI- in case anyone has seen that insane radiation map (claiming it’s from the Austrailan Radiation Services) that’s been circulating around the internet- PLEASE know it is fake, false, zotworthy, debunked, wrong, inaccurate and just all around bad.
His “Krakatoa” was an excellent book. Couldn’t put it down.
From a plate tectonics view, the North American Plate is moving west, due to the mid-Atlantic ridge which is always growing and splitting, the west gets pushed west, and so on. The South American Plate is moving north and west. The mid-Atlantic ridge is must further eastward than the one in the North Atlantic. The African plate is moving due north, into Europe. The Pacific plate is moving west because both the North and South American plates are pushing it in from the east. Japan is on the western edge of this, as is New Zealand. The eastern edge of the Pacific plate includes southwestern California and the Aleutians, but not the coast of southeast Alaska, British Columbia, and Washington, Oregon and northern California, all of which are still part of the North American plate. The Ring of Fire is basically all the edges of the Pacific plate. It seems the other plates are all moving into it.
Anyway, if stress on the Pacific plate was relieved by Chile, New Zealand and now Japan, why should there be another major rupture? And if there is, why shouldn't it happen in Japan again? Perhaps that's still the weakest location on the entire plate.
I just don't see how it "has to be" another location, as if earthquakes have to be fair and spread their power around. I would think that as long as there is tremendous pressure on the plates, the relief would occur where the forces arrayed against the pressure are weakest.
Anyway, obviously I'm not a geologist.
1751: Daniel Kahl tweets: “Tokyo is a ghost town tonight. No people on the streets. Even the entertainment districts. Eerily quiet. But Tokyo is amazing. Even with blackouts, train problems, no rioting, no looting, no robberies
The designers apparently could not imagine a tsunami of these proportions and the backup power remember, the plants themselves produce power, power is brought in by multiple outside power lines, there are banks of diesels to produce backup power, and finally, banks of batteries to back that up, all were disabled.
It is a classic case of a common-mode failure and this will be the repercussion in the industry, try to enhance the availability of emergency power in cases where this kind of event can happen.
Here, we had two things happen from the same initiating event. Station blackout and loss of emergency diesel electricity. Station blackout from loss of offsite power is one of the most troublesome events nuclear plant operators have to deal with. Then you are totally reliant on emergency power. That means diesel generators and, for a short period, batteries. All indications at this point are that all the safety systems were working up to the point of the loss of diesel power. The plant shutdown safely when the seismic event was detected. Cooling systems were operable on backup power when offsite power was lost. When the diesels quit when the tsunami came ashore, things went south.
If you lose AC power on the plant safety buses, there really isn't much you can do other than work your darndest to get power back on. This is what they did. But the accident had evolved at that point to include other complications, as we've seen. So my guess is we'll see added emphasis on assuring that emergency power is available in this kind of common-mode failure scenario.
I guess my point is that they seem to not be acting so much as re-acting and coming up with half-baked solutions off the cuff as each new disaster rears its ugly head.
Or it could just be me ;)
both links were bad
They actually had some discussion on Tokyo Broadcast the other evening about the specially built tsunami berms. As with most things they were built for a particular level of catastrophe. ‘Mother Nature’ in this case has exceeded all of those. They basically didn’t do much as the surge was so significant that it spilled over the top and just kept going (up to 1.5m inland in some places).
There was one older lady who said some people didn’t leave when the very short warning came because they thought the berm woud be able to handle it.
I couldn’t quite catch if the large steel doors to allow passthrough transit were able to be shut in time.
lol. The top picture in that link you provided shows that they still have M&M’s and Oreo’s on the shelves. THose would have been my first targets of opportunity! :)
That was a good update page from the Brits - I’m finding they are doing better work than our papers and even Al Jazeera has more info << hated to say that
ditto.... I agree. Nice to have a live thread for now.
The only comment I read about Sendai and Miyagi specifically, was that the tsunami plowed right through the sea walls that had been built.
They simply were not built for a tsunami this big.
Third lesson: LOTS of video cameras so people can actually SEE what’s happening!
I saw a video or two where you could see the water rushing over berms and through channels.
In one video, there were two buildings that stood across the street from each other and were about 4 stories high and sitting relatively close to the ocean. There were no taller buildings between them and the ocean.
Early in the video, you could see water wrapping around the buildings at street level and channeling down the street. A minute later, the camera panned back and the water now channeling around the buildings was passing through the oceanside corner window of one building and flowing out the side corner window... on the 3rd floor!
I also saw a video of what looks like a tsunami channel with berms on either side and a road running parallel to the channel and about 10 or 15 feet below the top of the berm. The video starts just as the water is busting over the top of the berm and hitting the street below. There are two large boats (the second looked to be a private yacht about 60 to 70 feet long) and both are being swept over the berm to the street below and crashing into the underside of a bridge.
The other remarkable shot was of a bus in a low-lying area scrambling to get up a hill and just manages to make it up the street just as the water comes rushing in behind it. It’s a little unclear, but I think the back end of the bus actually gets pushed sideways by the water before he gets traction back and scoots up the hill to safety. Either way, there’s bound to be a few stains on those seat cushions.
Not to be morbid and all but I wonder how much the TEPCO suits are contemplating Hari Kari right around now?
I know should not have said it but it’s on my mind.
Well, they flipped to the page in the Operating Manual for "9.1 quake, 30 foot tsumani and loss of generator power" and found:
I’m sorry but Jones and Infowars are quacks preying on sensationalism to draw a crowd.
Thanks again for the live thread. Yesterday, there were so many threads all over the place, and it was hard to keep up.
This is much easier to keep up with the news.
:) It’s waaaay too hard to keep up otherwise!
Question to all
How much radiation would have to leak into the atmosphere for that map posted showing US crops affected?
Thanks. In such a grim situation, that sure did make me smile.
Those poor people need a break.
AEA Update on Japan Earthquake
Japan Earthquake Update (15 March 2011, 15:30 UTC)
An earthquake of 6.1 magnitude was reported today at 13:31 UTC in Eastern Honshu, Japan. The Hamaoka nuclear power plant is sited an estimated 100 kilometres from the epicentre.
IEC confirmed with Japan that the plant continues to operate safely.
Units 1 and 2 are decommissioned, Unit 3 is under inspection and not operational, and Units 4 and 5 remain in safe operational status after the earthquake.
Japan Earthquake Update (15 March 2011, 14:10 UTC)
The IAEA Incident and Emergency Centre (IEC) continues to monitor the status of the nuclear power plants in Japan that were affected by the devastating earthquake and consequent tsunami.
All units at the Fukushima Daini, Onagawa, and Tokai nuclear power plants are in a safe and stable condition (i.e. cold shutdown).
The IAEA remains concerned over the status of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, where sea water injections to cool the reactors in Units 1, 2 and 3 are continuing. Attempts to return power to the entire Daiichi site are also continuing.
After explosions at both Units 1 and 3, the primary containment vessels of both Units are reported to be intact. However, the explosion that occurred at 21:14 UTC on 14 March at the Fukushima Daiichi Unit 2 may have affected the integrity of its primary containment vessel. All three explosions were due to an accumulation of hydrogen gas.
A fire at Unit 4 occurred on 14 March 23:54 UTC and lasted two hours. The IAEA is seeking clarification on the nature and consequences of the fire.
The IAEA continues to seek details about the status of all workers, reactors and spent fuel at the Fukushima Daiichi plant.
An evacuation of the population from the 20-kilometre zone around Fukushima Daiichi is in effect. The Japanese have advised that people within a 30-km radius shall take shelter indoors. Iodine tablets have been distributed to evacuation centres but no decision has yet been taken on their administration.
A 30-kilometre no-fly zone has been established around the Daiichi plant. Normal civil aviation beyond this zone remains uninterrupted. The Japan Coast Guard established evacuation warnings within 10 kilometres of Fukushima Daiichi and 3 kilometres of Fukushima Daini.
The IAEA and several other UN organizations held a meeting at 11:00 UTC today to discuss recent developments and coordinate activities related to consequences of the earthquake and tsunami. The meeting was called under the framework of the Joint Radiation Emergency Management Plan of the International Organizations, and this group expects to work closely together in the days ahead.
Run on potassium iodide pills.
Even on the Drudgereport the main headline is called “Nuclear Snow”.
THANKS for doing this....it was getting crazy trying to follow the various threads...
THANKs for reminding us (Northwestern US residents)/s
I understand the scale of the disaster. But there's a God made problem here, well a couple of them, and a man-made problem here.
I guess I'm just hard-pressed to understand why at the start they couldn't get the pumps activated. Your generators are screwed? Fine, fly in some replacements. You need to get water into the plants? Fine, FLY in some heavy duty pumps to do the job.
I know I'm second guessing here, but from day one I've wondered why they couldnt fly in generators to keep those pumps running.
From the Ticker Forum, one of the best places to get updates from Japan and not idiotic know-nothings.
Status of quake-stricken reactors at Fukushima nuclear power plants
TOKYO, March 16, Kyodo
The following is the known status as of Tuesday evening of each of the six reactors at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant and the four reactors at the Fukushima No. 2 plant, both in Fukushima Prefecture, crippled by Fridays magnitude 9.0 earthquake and ensuing tsunami.
Fukushima No. 1
Reactor No. 1 - Cooling failure, partial melting of core, vapor vented, hydrogen explosion, seawater pumped in.
Reactor No. 2 - Cooling failure, seawater pumped in, fuel rods fully exposed temporarily, vapor vented, damage to containment system, potential meltdown feared.
Reactor No. 3 - Cooling failure, partial melting of core feared, vapor vented, seawater pumped in, hydrogen explosion, high-level radiation measured nearby.
Reactor No. 4 - Under maintenance when quake struck, fire caused possibly by hydrogen explosion at pool holding spent fuel rods, pool water level feared receding.
Reactor No. 5 - Under maintenance when quake struck, temperature slightly rising at spent fuel pool.
Reactor No. 6 - Under maintenance when quake struck, temperature slightly rising at spent fuel pool.
Fukushima No. 2
Reactor No. 1 - Cooling failure, then cold shutdown.
Reactor No. 2 - Cooling failure, then cold shutdown.
Reactor No. 3 - Cold shutdown.
Reactor No. 4 - Cooling failure, then cold shutdown.
FoxNews is also showing an unrealistic dose map. They are showing 400 mSv/hr up to 30 miles from the Fukushima site, and 30 mSv/hr up to 80 miles away. 10mSv is equivalent to 1 rem, so they are showing 40 Rem/hour up to 30 miles away and 3 Rem/hour 80 miles away. Impossible! If the spent fuel pool was completely drained down, exposing every fuel assembly, you might have 40 Rem/hour by the gate, but dose rates would be in the few millirem/hour rate a few miles down the road.
Yes, Barry Brook is doing a great job on that site.
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