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Why can't we just let the Libyans fight it out (...and then make friends with the winners)
The Daily Mail ^ | March 20, 2011 | Peter Hitchens

Posted on 03/20/2011 4:13:01 AM PDT by Scanian

Politics seems to have become a sort of mental illness. We have no bloody business in Libya, and no idea what we hope to achieve there.

We are daily told that we have no money to spare. We have just scrapped a large part of our Navy.

Our Army is stuck in an Afghan war whose point nobody can explain. And now we have set out on a course that could drag us into a long, gory brawl in North Africa.

And yet, when the Prime Minister announces this folly he is praised. Why? Partly it is because we all watch too much TV. Its reports simplify, then exaggerate.

Reporters, much like politicians, like to feel they are helping to make history, and get excited by subjects they knew nothing about until last Wednesday.

Before we know where we are, we are taking sides in quarrels we don’t understand. Who are the Libyan rebels? What do they want? Why do we love them so?

I’ve no idea, and nor has Mr Cameron, as we discovered when he (yes, it was him, not poor William Hague) sent the SAS to see them and they were welcomed with pitchforks and mockery.

The only sensible policy in Libya is to wait and see who wins, and then make friends with them. If you think this heartless, you are of course right. Foreign policy is heartless. Nice countries end up being conquered or going bankrupt. But it may be no more heartless than our kindly interference.

I pray that this episode ends quickly and cleanly. Perhaps it will. But we cannot know. What if our humanitarian bombs and missiles accidentally kill women and children (which is almost certain)? What if air attacks and distant shelling fail to stop Gaddafi’s forces?

(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: cameron; gaddafi; interference; libya
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1 posted on 03/20/2011 4:13:04 AM PDT by Scanian
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To: Scanian

Kill ‘em all and let God sort it out.


2 posted on 03/20/2011 4:14:11 AM PDT by Sarah-bot
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To: Scanian

Why? Because genocide would happen.

And Quadaffi would kill thousands.


3 posted on 03/20/2011 4:14:31 AM PDT by JaneNC (I)
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To: Scanian

....because this way we can make enemies out of both of them.


4 posted on 03/20/2011 4:14:52 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Sarah-bot

Unfortunately, that is how I feel. I hope that my heart will soften soon.


5 posted on 03/20/2011 4:15:07 AM PDT by Sarah-bot
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To: Cvengr

Muslims will ALWAYS be our enemies. It is an article of faith with them.

To believe otherwise is to ignore reality.


6 posted on 03/20/2011 4:16:29 AM PDT by Scanian (i)
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To: Scanian

you got that right


7 posted on 03/20/2011 4:18:26 AM PDT by Yorlik803 (better to die on your feet than live on your knees.)
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To: Scanian

And if we just see a change in which tribes are doing the slaughtering? Oh well, declare a success and turn off the cameras.


8 posted on 03/20/2011 4:20:24 AM PDT by Truth29
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To: JaneNC

Then let their filthy rich Arab co-religionists barge in and set things right.

We are overextended as it is. And broke, as is the UK.


9 posted on 03/20/2011 4:21:34 AM PDT by Scanian (i)
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To: Scanian

I don’t believe that we are over extended. We can do a lot more killing. The problem is that we do not have the will power. Afghanistan and Iraq would have been over years ago if we had the will to kill. I say better them then our men.


10 posted on 03/20/2011 4:24:46 AM PDT by Sarah-bot
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To: Scanian

What if our humanitarian bombs and missiles accidentally kill women and children (which is almost certain)? What if air attacks and distant shelling fail to stop Gaddafi’s forces?

Found in the book, “How to Win Friends and Influence People”.

Who are the Libyan rebels? What do they want? Why do we love them so?

A question begging for an answer before we do something stupid, like upset the middle eastern apple cart any more.


11 posted on 03/20/2011 4:24:46 AM PDT by wita
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To: Scanian
He's directly responsible for killing everyone on flight 103.

He's a terrorist that should pay with his life and be example to other would be terrorists what happens to those who go down that path.

Kill Gaddafi and get out. Libyans can do what they want with their country after he's dead be it peaceful or civil war. It's their blood to spend as they please. No more "nation building".

That's my opinion...

12 posted on 03/20/2011 4:27:32 AM PDT by DB
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To: wita

You raised a point that has caused me to appreciate Hobbs. The leviathan is comprises of the peasants and the dictator. The head of the leviathan is the dictator. The body (peasants) are culpable for the crimes of the leviathan, of which they are a part.


13 posted on 03/20/2011 4:28:49 AM PDT by Sarah-bot
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To: DB
Speaking of Lockerbie and for anyone else who's been wondering, click on this link...

If your country doesn't stop Gaddafi today he will kill all of us - and he will kill you too: How the savage assault on Benghazi proved 'ceasefire' was a lie

...then scroll down a bit, and off to the right side is a column with the latest on the wherabouts of the Lockerbie bomber.

14 posted on 03/20/2011 4:30:27 AM PDT by mewzilla (Were members of both political parties in on the Lockerbie bomber deal?)
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To: Scanian
Maybe according to the logic of the left we now have things in an equal court. We were on the wrong side in Bosnia and now we support rebels with ties to Muslim brotherhood. See What To Do In Libya? Arm Both Sides!. I don't think this will have a rosey ending.
15 posted on 03/20/2011 4:30:36 AM PDT by armymarinemom (My sons freed Iraqi and Afghan Honor Roll students.)
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To: JaneNC

Genocide is happening every day in American abortion mills and it doesn’t seem to bother the liberals.

For Democracy?? Come on now-—does ayone really believe a Democracy will last past the first Muslim election?

Whichever side wins , they will still hate the Western countries, and turn on us like rabid dogs.

We needed to let them solve this problem themselves.

62 Million dollars worth of Tomahawks wasted. If they wanted to get rid of Hussein they should have shot them at him.


16 posted on 03/20/2011 4:31:41 AM PDT by Venturer
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To: JaneNC
We know Gaddafi is an enemy of the West, a mercurial nut who if he survives the revolution is likely to turn against Western interests. We know he's killed Americans before (in Berlin and over Scotland). We know, too, that he can be frightened. He was after President Reagan attacked him in retaliation for Gaddafi's links to terrorist who killed Americans in a Berlin disco. He backed down every President Reagan authorized US forces into the Gulf of Sidra. We know too that he gave up his nuclear weapons program after President George W. Bush overthrow Saddam. Gaddafi's been a long time enemy of the US. Like Saddam, Gaddafi caused problems for the US for a long time, not just under Obama.

Like you, I don't think this is the time, when Gaddafi threatens genocide, for hand wringing or ambivalence.

17 posted on 03/20/2011 4:32:05 AM PDT by elhombrelibre ("I'd rather be ruled by the Tea Party than the Democratic Party." Norman Podhoretz)
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To: JaneNC

Genocide has been going on in Dharfur for many years and not a soul has done squat to stop it. This war is not about genocide.

Do you think no Libyans are being killed by our bombs?


18 posted on 03/20/2011 4:33:36 AM PDT by dforest
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To: armymarinemom

We are on the right side now. In the future, the rebels may turn out to be bad, but if you use that logic then you would never help anyone. Anyone could turn out bad. I that why you don’t give to the needy?


19 posted on 03/20/2011 4:33:39 AM PDT by Sarah-bot
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To: elhombrelibre

Many have been slaughtered already. It is past time.
We should have bombed when the rebels held the oil fields.

Since it is done, it is time to deal with that reality.


20 posted on 03/20/2011 4:34:42 AM PDT by JaneNC (I)
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To: indylindy

So, because genocide is going on in Dharfur, we should allow genocide to go on everywhere?


21 posted on 03/20/2011 4:35:46 AM PDT by Sarah-bot
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To: Scanian

Not all Muslims hate us. Many Americans today stand shoulder to shoulder with Muslims fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. I am not pretending that there are not a huge number who do hate us, but by no means do all of them.


22 posted on 03/20/2011 4:36:48 AM PDT by elhombrelibre ("I'd rather be ruled by the Tea Party than the Democratic Party." Norman Podhoretz)
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To: elhombrelibre

How does one tell the difference, without dieing first?


23 posted on 03/20/2011 4:38:04 AM PDT by Sarah-bot
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To: Sarah-bot

The difference between what?


24 posted on 03/20/2011 4:39:05 AM PDT by elhombrelibre ("I'd rather be ruled by the Tea Party than the Democratic Party." Norman Podhoretz)
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To: Sarah-bot

Libya is a civil war. If you can turn your back on Christians being murdered by Muslims in Dharfur, it is hard to make the phony case that genocide is more important when Muslims are killing each other.

Frankly, we have no idea who the rebels are. If they are MB backed, I won’t miss them.


25 posted on 03/20/2011 4:39:15 AM PDT by dforest
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To: elhombrelibre

Between a Muslim that hates us, and a Muslim that does not?


26 posted on 03/20/2011 4:40:05 AM PDT by Sarah-bot
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To: Sarah-bot
We are on the right side now

Supporting rebels with ties to the Muslim brotherhood is not being on the right side. Visit some sites of reformed jihadist. Walid Shoebat to start. Don't depend on Fox News or politicians to tell you which dogs are in a fight. We are not on the right side. It is rare to have a side chosen by Hilary to be the right side.

27 posted on 03/20/2011 4:40:32 AM PDT by armymarinemom (My sons freed Iraqi and Afghan Honor Roll students.)
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To: indylindy

I never turned my back on the Christians in Dharfur. The problem is that no good Christian has been willing to pay me to do anything about it. Money makes the world go around.


28 posted on 03/20/2011 4:42:33 AM PDT by Sarah-bot
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To: Sarah-bot

Between a Muslim that hates us, and a Muslim that does not?


Who said that the rebels do not hate us?
(Fact is we know nothing about the rebels or about their goals) yet we are siding with them in a civil war.


29 posted on 03/20/2011 4:43:16 AM PDT by darkside321
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To: DB
Kill Gaddafi and get out.

Seconded.

30 posted on 03/20/2011 4:44:51 AM PDT by paulycy (Islamo-Marxism is Evil.)
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To: Scanian

The world has changed now, like it or not. Left alone, Gadaffi would unleash mercenaries and massacre thousands upon thousands as Eu /US watched.


31 posted on 03/20/2011 4:44:57 AM PDT by mewykwistmas (No blood for ($4 a gallon) oil!)
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To: mewzilla

Speaking of Lockerbie and for anyone else who’s been wondering,

Frankly my dear...(just an expression, not a jab)

I haven’t been wondering, other than this: We give a great big pass to the dicktator in Iran, who is scheduled to be the next nuclear power at our expense, and who actually invaded our sovereign territory, making hostages of our citizens and instead, invade, (sort of), Libya home of the Lockerbie bomber, planner, and executor.

I’m speechless.


32 posted on 03/20/2011 4:45:01 AM PDT by wita
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To: Sarah-bot

I wasn’t referring to you in particular. Surely you know that.

We are not in this Libya mess because of Daffy killing people. We are killing people too now.


33 posted on 03/20/2011 4:46:11 AM PDT by dforest
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To: Sarah-bot
Well, how can you tell the difference between anyone who hates you and those who do not? Do all black Americans hate whites? Some do. Do all white Americans hate blacks? Some do. Most Moslems do not hate Americans. I've been in 5 Moslem countries. I'm aware some hate us. I'm aware some don't. I can't tell which ones are which by looking at them.

Everyday service members from the US and other western countries go on patrols with Moslems in Iraq and Afghanistan. Most of them workout well. We're well treated in the Gulf States and many other places. It's simply wrong headed to say all Moslems hate us.

34 posted on 03/20/2011 4:46:27 AM PDT by elhombrelibre ("I'd rather be ruled by the Tea Party than the Democratic Party." Norman Podhoretz)
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To: armymarinemom

You are not seeing the big picture. Once Gaddafi is dead then a rebel will take his place. We will learn who the Muslim Brother Hood rebel is, then we can take care of him. If we do not take out Gaddafi then we will never know who the Muslim Brother Hood man is.


35 posted on 03/20/2011 4:46:41 AM PDT by Sarah-bot
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To: elhombrelibre

No, all Pirates hate free people. Lets start killing the pirates. All people who deploy IED’s hate fee men, lets kill them. You get the idea.


36 posted on 03/20/2011 4:49:04 AM PDT by Sarah-bot
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To: wita

Well, on a positive note, hopefully this means that al-Megrahi’s Lamborghini trips to see his new mansion will be a thing of the past.


37 posted on 03/20/2011 4:50:08 AM PDT by mewzilla (Were members of both political parties in on the Lockerbie bomber deal?)
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To: Scanian

It’s about Who will control the oil!!


38 posted on 03/20/2011 4:51:08 AM PDT by dokmad
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To: Sarah-bot

I have been living the big picture for nearly 20 years now. I have learned that liberals will send my sons off to fight for the Muslim brotherhood when they should be taking out the lot radical islam. You don’t try out the devil to see how he fits.


39 posted on 03/20/2011 4:51:14 AM PDT by armymarinemom (My sons freed Iraqi and Afghan Honor Roll students.)
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To: Sarah-bot

Leviathan established the foundation for most of Western political philosophy from the perspective of social contract theory.[2]

I never read it, so I’m not sure where I stand on social contract theory. I know where I stand on supporting rebels we really are clueless about. The Colonel has actually listened to us in the past, although if everything about Lockerbie is true, he does have a streak of get even.


40 posted on 03/20/2011 4:53:46 AM PDT by wita
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To: JaneNC

it has come to light that al queda is behind the uprising....do you remember iran, 1979??? this truly is carters second term


41 posted on 03/20/2011 4:54:58 AM PDT by joe fonebone (Project Gunwalker, this will make watergate look like the warm up band......)
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To: Sarah-bot

Killing, fighting or whatever you want to call it with borrowed money?

No more.


42 posted on 03/20/2011 4:55:15 AM PDT by Scanian (i)
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To: Scanian

Has NBC called this a civil war?


43 posted on 03/20/2011 4:55:42 AM PDT by texanyankee
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To: armymarinemom

Sounds good, but the problem is that you are full of it. It is time to start fighting this war, and stop pretending it does not exist.


44 posted on 03/20/2011 4:56:45 AM PDT by Sarah-bot
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To: indylindy

Amen!


45 posted on 03/20/2011 4:57:57 AM PDT by wita
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To: Scanian

The problem is that we have not been enjoying the spoils of war. Sun Tzu understood that you can not win a war by transporting material long distances. Bush made the mistake of not taxing Iraq of its oil. If we would have been taking Iraq’s oil all this time we would not be in the position we are in today.


46 posted on 03/20/2011 5:01:07 AM PDT by Sarah-bot
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To: Sarah-bot
Yeah, and I'm okay with that. I truly am.

But Bourbon is whiskey, but not all whiskey is bourbon. Some Muslims are pirates who hate free people. Some Muslims plant IEDs. Not all Muslims are pirates or people who plant IEDs. There should not be a collective guilt. It's simply not logical.

Think of it this way. Some white people were Nazis, but not all white people were. Some white people were in the KKK, but not all white people were.

Those who foment hate, like al Qaeda, love it when they can provoke us to buy into the same division as they do.

I see plenty of principled reasons to oppose what was done in Iraq (the US Constitution, the fear of the cost, and other valid considerations). I don't agree that all Muslims should be dead is a valid or moral argument. Nor, do I think anyone has the resources for that.

47 posted on 03/20/2011 5:03:42 AM PDT by elhombrelibre ("I'd rather be ruled by the Tea Party than the Democratic Party." Norman Podhoretz)
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To: elhombrelibre

Quran (2:191-193) - “And slay them(infidels) wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places ..... to make it victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist.”


48 posted on 03/20/2011 5:04:48 AM PDT by Scanian (i)
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To: Scanian

There has been many crusades,
Before this is over we may have to have another.
Drive the “religion of peace” back to the sand pit hell where it belongs


49 posted on 03/20/2011 5:05:26 AM PDT by Joe Boucher ((FUBO) Obammy, the man is too small.)
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To: wita

Basically Hobbs was in favor of big government. He believed that the sovereign and the peasants worked as a team. He believed that they were one (leviathan). I believe that the peasants are as culpable as the sovereign because Hobbs is correct, to a point.


50 posted on 03/20/2011 5:06:12 AM PDT by Sarah-bot
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