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Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court (Feds say opposing them is "domestic terrorism")
The Citizen-Times, Asheville, NC | 2011-03-19

Posted on 03/20/2011 8:49:19 PM PDT by rabscuttle385

Link only, per FR posting rules


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government; US: North Carolina
KEYWORDS: biggovernment; coin; currency; dollar
http://charlotte.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/pressrel11/ce031811.htm

Article I, section 8, clause 5 of the United States Constitution delegates to Congress the power to coin money and to regulate the value thereof. This power was delegated to Congress in order to establish and preserve a uniform standard of value and to insure a singular monetary system for all purchases and debts in the United States, public and private. Along with the power to coin money, Congress has the concurrent power to restrain the circulation of money which is not issued under its own authority....It is a violation of federal law for individuals, such as von NotHaus, or organizations, such as NORFED, to create private coin or currency systems to compete with the official coinage and currency of the United States.

(snip)

“Attempts to undermine the legitimate currency of this country are simply a unique form of domestic terrorism,” U.S. Attorney Tompkins said in announcing the verdict. “While these forms of anti-government activities do not involve violence, they are every bit as insidious and represent a clear and present danger to the economic stability of this country,” she added. “We are determined to meet these threats through infiltration, disruption, and dismantling of organizations which seek to challenge the legitimacy of our democratic form of government.”

1 posted on 03/20/2011 8:49:21 PM PDT by rabscuttle385
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To: rabscuttle385

How about challenging the legitimacy of the Warrior Chief?/sarcasm


2 posted on 03/20/2011 8:51:55 PM PDT by Frank_2001
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To: rabscuttle385
"Attempts to undermine the legitimate currency of this country are simply a unique form of domestic terrorism..."

Well then. I suppose that makes the New York Fed the domestic equivalent of al-Qaeda...since it has spent the better part of a century undermining the value of the U.S. dollar!


3 posted on 03/20/2011 8:53:55 PM PDT by rabscuttle385 (Live Free or Die)
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To: rabscuttle385
He should appeal...and cite this: http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2009-04-05-scrip_N.htm Communities print their own currency to keep cash flowing: A small but growing number of cash-strapped communities are printing their own money. Borrowing from a Depression-era idea, they are aiming to help consumers make ends meet and support struggling local businesses. The systems generally work like this: Businesses and individuals form a network to print currency. Shoppers buy it at a discount — say, 95 cents for $1 value — and spend the full value at stores that accept the currency. VIDEO: Scrip: It's all the rage Workers with dwindling wages are paying for groceries, yoga classes and fuel with Detroit Cheers, Ithaca Hours in New York, Plenty in North Carolina or BerkShares in Massachusetts. Ed Collom, a University of Southern Maine sociologist who has studied local currencies, says they encourage people to buy locally. Merchants, hurting because customers have cut back on spending, benefit as consumers spend the local cash. "We wanted to make new options available," says Jackie Smith of South Bend, Ind., who is working to launch a local currency. "It reinforces the message that having more control of the economy in local hands can help you cushion yourself from the blows of the marketplace." About a dozen communities have local currencies, says Susan Witt, founder of BerkShares in the Berkshires region of western Massachusetts. She expects more to do it. I see no difference here...either you can create your own "currency", or you cannot... Looks like selective enforcement to me...
4 posted on 03/20/2011 8:54:28 PM PDT by Crim
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To: rabscuttle385

This is another of those jerkwads who think they can issue “scrip” or what have you in an obvious attempt to dupe stupid Americans (we know after the 2008 elections there are 66+ millions of stupid Americans) to think they can avoid taxes.

Target rich environment.


5 posted on 03/20/2011 8:54:41 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats. /P. J. O'Rourke, 1991)
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To: rabscuttle385

Crap autoformat...Grrr

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2009-04-05-scrip_N.htm#


6 posted on 03/20/2011 8:55:25 PM PDT by Crim
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To: rabscuttle385

Placeholder.


7 posted on 03/20/2011 8:55:35 PM PDT by slotin flash
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To: Crim

>>Communities print their own currency to keep cash flowing<<

No they can’t.


8 posted on 03/20/2011 8:55:40 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats. /P. J. O'Rourke, 1991)
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To: Crim

Beware, peasants! We can build prisons a LOT faster than you can invent currencies!!!/s;)


9 posted on 03/20/2011 8:57:27 PM PDT by Frank_2001
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To: freedumb2003

Google “detroit dollars”

They can , do , and have...


10 posted on 03/20/2011 8:57:37 PM PDT by Crim
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To: Frank_2001

OBAMA MONEY!...FROM HIS STASH!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19v5Kjmc8FI


11 posted on 03/20/2011 9:00:28 PM PDT by Crim
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To: Crim

It isn’t “real.”

It is like having a club using Monopoly Money where everyone agrees that they will accept coupons at some face value.

The moment you try to use the coupons outside the club (to pay, for example, an auto loan or worse, to pay taxes) you violate the federal Guidelines.

Yeah, you can have a club if you want, but you can’t force the citizenry to participate. That also crosses the line.


12 posted on 03/20/2011 9:02:05 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats. /P. J. O'Rourke, 1991)
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To: freedumb2003

Has anyone been “forced” to buy a “liberty dollar’?

You know what’s clearl stamped on the reverse dont you?

1.800.NEW.DOLLAR and LibertyDollar.Org

Sorry...only a fool would take these as “legal tender”..

Why are they any different than coins from the Franklin mint?

http://www.franklinmint.com/


13 posted on 03/20/2011 9:05:56 PM PDT by Crim
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To: freedumb2003

Except his money was backed by precious metals. Unlike the crap we have in our wallets.


14 posted on 03/20/2011 9:06:05 PM PDT by LukeL (Barack Obama: Jimmy Carter 2 Electric Boogaloo)
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To: rabscuttle385
No power is granted to Congress to criminalize the making of coins—provided said coins do not qualify as an attempt to counterfeit the coinage of the United States (which the coins in question clearly do not.)

The grant of the power to coin money cannot logically be construed as the power to prohibit anyone else from making coins, or using them as money. If it were, it would make the separate grant of the power to criminalize and punish counterfeiting superfluous, unnessary and irrelevant—and the Framers clearly stated multiple times that the Constitution must not be intepreted in such a way so as to make any of its clauses unnecessary or irrelevant, and that doing so would be a clear and compelling sign of misinterpretation.

The Constitution does NOT grant Congress the power to make the money it coins (and it must be coins) legal tender. It instead grants that power to the States—which are in the same clause forbidden from making anything legal tender other than gold and silver coins.

It is the Federal government that is breaking multiple laws here, not NORFED.

15 posted on 03/20/2011 9:07:33 PM PDT by sourcery (If true=false, then there would be no constraints on what is possible. Hence, the world exists.)
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To: rabscuttle385

By that logic border towns that have stores which accept Pesos or Canadian Dollars are breaking federal law.


16 posted on 03/20/2011 9:10:59 PM PDT by LukeL (Barack Obama: Jimmy Carter 2 Electric Boogaloo)
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To: Crim

>>Why are they any different than coins from the Franklin mint?<<

Are there any dollars on the Franklin Mint that aren’t dollars? They paint them and plate them but, from what I can, tell they are real dollars underneath. Otherwise they can’t call them “dollars.”

I am not making a monetary policy argument — I am making a legal one. The term “dollar” means something. Attempting to substitute something else is pure counterfeiting, nothing else.

If he wants to sell it based on underlying gold value, great! Call it a “Homer” or a “Golder” or a “Everybodylovesraymond.” To use the term “dollar” is a clear attempt to pretend to be currency.


17 posted on 03/20/2011 9:19:12 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats. /P. J. O'Rourke, 1991)
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To: LukeL

>>By that logic border towns that have stores which accept Pesos or Canadian Dollars are breaking federal law.<<

There is a theoretical basis in that. But, so long as the vendor knows that the currency he is accepting is foreign, he is doing 2 transactions at one time: he is doing currency exchange (perfectly legal) and then the sale (also perfectly legal).

BTW: Mexico just legislated that US Dollars may no longer accepted as tender in retail sales. I go there 4 or 5 times a year: I will test the system. I am sure 7-11, Walmart, HEB and the like will comply. It will be interesting to see what smaller vendors do....


18 posted on 03/20/2011 9:25:25 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats. /P. J. O'Rourke, 1991)
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To: freedumb2003

“Are there any dollars on the Franklin Mint that aren’t dollars? They paint them and plate them but, from what I can, tell they are real dollars underneath. Otherwise they can’t call them “dollars.””

Here ya go....

http://www.franklinmint.com/JFK-Half-Dollar-Oversized-Proof—P11123.aspx

Clearly..not a “real” half dollar “underneath”

Price 295 bucks.


19 posted on 03/20/2011 9:40:40 PM PDT by Crim
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To: rabscuttle385

For all these people who say the U.S. dollar isn’t worth anything, I’ll go ahead and agree with you and, because I’m a nice guy, I’m offering to take ALL of your dollars off your hands since you guys hate them so much.


20 posted on 03/20/2011 9:53:16 PM PDT by lmr (God punishes Conservatives by making them argue with fools.)
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To: Crim

They are crystal clear:

>>The JFK Oversized Proof is a spectacular replica of the iconic 1964 JFK Half-Dollar. <<

It is clearly a collectible — why do you not think they made it oversized?

The case at point tried to pass of “Liberty Dollars” as “U.S. Dollars.” Not as collectibles (would you use a $295 oversized dollar as a buck?).

You are wrong on every possible angle on this one, my FRiend.

The Liberty “Dollar” was an attempt for a private person to substitute scrip for money. It failed, and rightly so.

I could open a mill tomorrow and start to manufacture “Bald Eagle Dollars” that looked cool and a lot like real silver dollars. I could also name myself “The U.S. Minting Supply” — and then sell them. I assure you, that would be exactly what happened here.

Why are you protecting scam artists? Do you have a ton of the now worthless Liberty “Dollars” and are hoping to at least get your original money back?


21 posted on 03/20/2011 9:55:05 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats. /P. J. O'Rourke, 1991)
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To: LukeL
Unlike the crap we have in our wallets.

If you don't want the 'crap' in your wallet, I'll gladly take it off your hands. Just send it to me.
22 posted on 03/20/2011 9:55:45 PM PDT by lmr (God punishes Conservatives by making them argue with fools.)
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To: lmr; Crim
God punishes Conservatives by making them argue with fools.

My FRiend you inadvertently cut me to the quick! I shall now leave this thread, since I am making no headway.

I mean no bad feelings to you, lmr -- merely a hanging of my head in shame for being pulled into a meaningless discussion -- and led by someone whose understanding I cannot trust.

Good night gentle FRiends.

And on the morrow I shall begin my new mint! :) ;)

23 posted on 03/20/2011 10:00:49 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats. /P. J. O'Rourke, 1991)
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To: freedumb2003

Funny stuff....first in post #8 you claimed...and I quote:


Communities print their own currency to keep cash flowing<<

“No they can’t.”


Then..in post #12...AFTER being proven WRONG......you not only admit they CAN...you attempt justify it....with some BS about it being “voluntary”....

Again..the clear language:

“Article I, section 8, clause 5 of the United States Constitution delegates to Congress the power to coin money and to regulate the value thereof.”

If a “liberty dollar” is illegal...so is a “detroit dollar”...

You can cut and run...or you can argue the point...your choice...

Night.


24 posted on 03/20/2011 10:16:59 PM PDT by Crim
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To: lmr

If you think about it a private bank is allowed to print money and sell it to the government. What a sweet deal that must be, print up some paper and sell it to a country then take the profits and buy up real things like gold, silver, and other commodities.


25 posted on 03/20/2011 10:17:06 PM PDT by LukeL (Barack Obama: Jimmy Carter 2 Electric Boogaloo)
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To: rabscuttle385
Isn't that something?

You know, they also threaten prosecution even if you print money that follows all the rules about what U.S. currency is supposed to look like.

It seems you just can't win when it comes to printing money.

26 posted on 03/20/2011 10:21:16 PM PDT by Walts Ice Pick
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To: freedumb2003

Silver bullets. Against vampire government. Each box with a complimentary portrait of Bela Lugosi.

Would sell like hotcakes, be Liberty supportive, and have no handles for the feds to latch onto.


27 posted on 03/20/2011 10:23:57 PM PDT by Hardraade (I want gigaton warheads now!!)
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To: freedumb2003

only way to avoid paying income taxes... stop working


28 posted on 03/20/2011 10:24:43 PM PDT by sten (fighting tyranny never goes out of style)
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To: freedumb2003
They paint them and plate them but, from what I can, tell they are real dollars underneath. Otherwise they can’t call them “dollars.”

I think you've been mislead. If they advertise a $20,00 gold coin, they didn't take the real gold coin and plate it with gold. It is a facsimile that has been plated with gold. Clearly counterfeiting to my understanding.

29 posted on 03/20/2011 10:41:13 PM PDT by higgmeister ( In the Shadow of The Big Chicken!)
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To: rabscuttle385

“Along with the power to coin money, Congress has the concurrent power to restrain the circulation of money which is not issued under its own authority”

That power is no where in the U.S. Constitution!

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html

What are they doing making up new laws as they go?


30 posted on 03/20/2011 11:07:49 PM PDT by Monorprise
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To: LukeL
If you think about it a private bank is allowed to print money and sell it to the government.

Do you mean the Federal Reserve? The place where every conspiracy to 'bring down the U.S.A.' and to 'control us' are hatched? That bank? The one that wants to 'turn us into Zimbabwe?' The bank that needs to immediately surrender itself to Ron Paul if we are to be 'saved?'
31 posted on 03/20/2011 11:08:03 PM PDT by lmr (God punishes Conservatives by making them argue with fools.)
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To: freedumb2003

The coins are hardly ‘worthless’. The $20.00 Liberty Dollar is 1 ounce of 99.9% silver worth more than $34.00 in the silver market. Heck, at least this coin had actual metal value and not that ‘backed by the good faith’ of something we use now(excluding the nickel). I will gladly exchange my $20.00 ‘legal tender’ bill for a ‘scrip’ $20.00 Liberty Dollar anytime.


32 posted on 03/20/2011 11:43:09 PM PDT by yadent
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To: yadent

I think that we have a winner!


33 posted on 03/21/2011 12:08:30 AM PDT by matthew fuller (God bless and protect Michelle Bachmann!)
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To: freedumb2003
"The term “dollar” means something. Attempting to substitute something else is pure counterfeiting, nothing else."

The word dollar is not exclusive to US government-sponsored coinage. For example, Canadian dollars and Zimbabwe dollars. Some of the Liberty coins include the statement "NOTICE: NOT INTENDED TO BE USED AS LEGAL TENDER, CURRENT MONEY, OR COIN." They also include contact info and political statements. They were NEVER passed off as US government coinage or legal tender.

These silver rounds are made by NORFED, which is an acronym for “National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve and the Internal Revenue Code.” Clearly political.

The legal action against NORFED is politically motivated. Their website www.libertydollar.org has been replaced with a statement that says, “Site Removed Due to Court Order.” So the court is shutting down political speech that is somehow displeasing to the ruling class.

34 posted on 03/21/2011 12:58:41 AM PDT by UnwashedPeasant (Don't nuke me, bro)
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To: rabscuttle385

Silver rounds are money. They are not ‘legal tender’: they are something better: real money. They act as a store of value which mere currency does not.

This distinction is going to come into sharp focus when the USD devalues sometime this year.

Hope President Palin pardons this guy. And I hope he gets back every oz of the silver that the Fed are stealing from him.


35 posted on 03/21/2011 2:31:17 AM PDT by agere_contra (Whenever a Liberal admits to something: he is covering up something far worse)
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To: Crim

>He should appeal...and cite this: http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2009-04-05-scrip_N.htm <

I see your point but a few thoughts.

1. he should appeal no matter what, he has nothing to lose at this point since it is federal court and is not getting a reduced sentence for anything. He will die in prison.

2. The article you mentioned may not be the best defense for him. The way that they are doing it is a bartering system that is locally confined to help one community. Whereas his business was producing coins that he sold as legal tender for all debts anywhere.

I see that as a problem for him using that defense. It is a difference between a few businesses bartering services or products between them like a merchants association and someone trying to coin a duplicate of actual currency.

he would be better off comparing himself to say the Franklin Mint
http://www.franklinmint.com/


36 posted on 03/21/2011 1:24:05 PM PDT by Munz (All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.)
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To: Crim

No one but the federal government can create money. I was right from the get-go.

I just noted there are silly little workarounds that can be attempted. I was right from the start and my follow-ups are also correct.

Community scrip isn’t money — it is just couponing.


37 posted on 03/21/2011 8:31:39 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats. /P. J. O'Rourke, 1991)
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To: yadent

>>The coins are hardly ‘worthless’. The $20.00 Liberty Dollar is 1 ounce of 99.9% silver worth more than $34.00 in the silver market. Heck, at least this coin had actual metal value and not that ‘backed by the good faith’ of something we use now(excluding the nickel). I will gladly exchange my $20.00 ‘legal tender’ bill for a ‘scrip’ $20.00 Liberty Dollar anytime.<<

Fine — call it the Yardbird or the Beatle. It isn’t backed by anything other than the current value of silver. Invest in it if you wish.

When we went off the gold standard an entirely new milieu emerged. Agree or disagree with that decision, it is the current state of affairs.


38 posted on 03/21/2011 8:34:49 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats. /P. J. O'Rourke, 1991)
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To: UnwashedPeasant

>>The word dollar is not exclusive to US government-sponsored coinage. For example, Canadian dollars and Zimbabwe dollars. Some of the Liberty coins include the statement “NOTICE: NOT INTENDED TO BE USED AS LEGAL TENDER, CURRENT MONEY, OR COIN.” They also include contact info and political statements. They were NEVER passed off as US government coinage or legal tender. <<

A difference without a distinction. The court (properly) saw this as an attempt to coin an alternative to the official US dollar.

>>So the court is shutting down political speech that is somehow displeasing to the ruling class.<<

Conspiracies around every corner, I tells ya! Conspiracies! Next up, they will go after our precious bodily fluids!


39 posted on 03/21/2011 8:38:03 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats. /P. J. O'Rourke, 1991)
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To: rabscuttle385

It’s all good when done in a liberal hell, like where I live..http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=158x12694


40 posted on 03/21/2011 9:27:25 PM PDT by j_tull (I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.)
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To: freedumb2003
Are you saying that as long as the ‘currency’ isn't called a dollar it's ok? That I could create a ‘Yardbird’ coin and advocate its usage in place of the legal tender dollar and it would be kosher? Because if is just a label that matters then I was a domestic terrorist as a kid when I used my rabbit named ‘Dollar’(what I paid for it)as currency to obtain a baseball glove. Realistically, the government’s 6-year effort to bring Bernard von Nothaus down had one single purpose: to send a message. Uncle Sam is telling us very clearly, “You WILL use our rapidly depreciating dollars… and anything we don’t like in our sole discretion, we will label as domestic terrorism”, which could be the basis for future silver/gold confiscation.
41 posted on 03/21/2011 10:39:32 PM PDT by yadent
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