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Liberty Dollar creator convicted in federal court
Asheville Citizen Times | March 19, 2011 | Clarke Morrison

Posted on 03/22/2011 4:16:16 AM PDT by stevie_d_64

The leader of a group that marketed a fake currency called Liberty Dollars in the Asheville area and elsewhere has been found guilty by a federal jury of conspiracy against the government in a case of “domestic terrorism.”

Bernard von NotHaus was convicted Friday at the conclusion of an eight-day trial in U.S. District Court in Statesville. The jury deliberated less than two hours, according to the Department of Justice.

Charges remain pending against William Kevin Innes, an Asheville man who authorities said recruited merchants in Western North Carolina willing to accept the “barter” currency, according to court records. Innes was indicted along with von NotHaus in 2009.

“Attempts to undermine the legitimate currency of this country are simply a unique form of domestic terrorism,” U.S. Attorney Anne Tompkins said. “While these forms of anti-government activities do not involve violence, they are every bit as insidious and represent a clear and present danger to the economic stability of this country.”

The case was investigated by the FBI, Buncombe County Sheriff’s Office and U.S. Secret Service with help from the U.S. Mint.

“We are determined to meet these threats through infiltration, disruption and dismantling of organizations which seek to challenge the legitimacy of our democratic form of government,” Tompkins said.

Von NotHaus, 67, faces up to 25 years in prison during sentencing, which hasn’t been scheduled. The government also is seeking the forfeiture of about 16,000 pounds of Liberty Dollar coins and precious metals valued at nearly $7 million.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Front Page News; Government; US: North Carolina
KEYWORDS: 2009; asheville; barter; bartercurrency; bernardvonnothaus; billinnes; courtcorruption; currency; dollar; donutwatch; gold; innes; libertydollar; nc; northcarolina; nothaus; politicalprisoner; preciousmetals; silver; standard; vonnothaus; williaminnes; williamkevininnes
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1 posted on 03/22/2011 4:16:19 AM PDT by stevie_d_64
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To: Travis McGee

http://www.citizen-times.com/article/20110319/NEWS01/110319006/1001/news/Liberty-Dollar-fake-currency-creator-convicted-federal-court?odyssey=nav%7Chead

Amazing...


2 posted on 03/22/2011 4:17:32 AM PDT by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus' sayin')
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To: stevie_d_64
And here we have the real reason the government went after him
The government also is seeking the forfeiture of about 16,000 pounds of Liberty Dollar coins and precious metals valued at nearly $7 million
Theft by the government under color of law.
3 posted on 03/22/2011 4:21:30 AM PDT by from occupied ga (Your most dangerous enemy is your own government,)
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To: from occupied ga

You caught that as well...

Seems tome this guy should have been ready for the government to have a slight problem with his activities...

But in wierd sense, it appears the government doesn’t believe silver, or gold for that matter has any value, unless they coin or print it, in some way shape or form...

So where are the “real” fruadulent, terrorists amoung us???


4 posted on 03/22/2011 4:24:03 AM PDT by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus' sayin')
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To: stevie_d_64

The leader of a group that marketed a fake currency called Liberty Dollars in the Asheville area and elsewhere has been found guilty by a federal jury of conspiracy against the government in a case of “domestic terrorism.”


5 posted on 03/22/2011 4:26:28 AM PDT by allmost
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To: stevie_d_64
I can see tax evasion as a charge, but "domestic terrorism"?

That's really stretching for the headline.

As far as undermining the U.S. economy goes, if that's the basis for a terrorism charge, will they ask Rio to extradite our absentee president?

6 posted on 03/22/2011 4:27:02 AM PDT by Quiller (When you're fighting to survive, there is no "try" -- there is only do, or do not.)
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To: stevie_d_64
“We are determined to meet these threats through infiltration, disruption and dismantling of organizations which seek to challenge the legitimacy of our democratic form of government,” Tompkins said.

Having much luck going after the Fed?
7 posted on 03/22/2011 4:32:04 AM PDT by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: stevie_d_64

Nuts.


8 posted on 03/22/2011 4:32:41 AM PDT by cmj328
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To: Quiller

Keep him there.


9 posted on 03/22/2011 4:34:45 AM PDT by allmost
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To: stevie_d_64

Seems like everything is terrorism these days. In the old days this would have been counterfeiting. Looks like the govt is going to use the terrorism hammer like they did the RICO laws. Just keep redefining it down.


10 posted on 03/22/2011 4:38:38 AM PDT by saganite (What happens to taglines? Is there a termination date?)
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To: allmost; Quiller

if I gave you a weighed piece of gold or silver, of a known market value...For sake of argument, let’s call it a single ounce, value to be for the sake of argument $1300 for an ounce of gold, and $35 for an ounce of silver (I’m not up on the current value for silver just yet)...

I gave you a single gold (1 ounce) coin (whatever national origin) for a pressure washer you are selling at your garage sale, and you give me back “oil backed” dollars in change for that sale...Where is the crime???

If gold is still gold, and silver is still silver, and its value is still based on the physical value and nature of the metal...What difference is it if it is stamped, formed or inscribed with markings on it???

If I had handed you a nugget, and you had a scale to verify its wieght, and you called the NY stock exchange for the current market value of that gold or silver, wold you decline the method of payment???

Just something to discuss, not a point of contention with you, but I want to see what you would think in a hypothetical sense...


11 posted on 03/22/2011 4:40:42 AM PDT by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus' sayin')
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To: stevie_d_64

Most Americans are aware that it is PERFECTLY LEGAL to coin or print your own money - one just cannot counterfeit US currency. Apparently, this guy’s cash was so similar, that they got him for counterfeitting. Too bad, really - he was proving a good point. If we let the dollar float in value, WHY NOT let the kilogram, or the ounce, “float” in relative weight, (or mass) too? Same principle!


12 posted on 03/22/2011 4:42:04 AM PDT by 2harddrive
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To: saganite

When the lowest common denominator is running the “government” show, calling all the shots...

It should be no big surprise to see the forces aligned against every American, and labeling everything terrorism is a simple way to keep the populace (that doesn’t use the grey matter between their wears too much) down, and suspicious of those of us who question and oppose the lowest common denominators...

Pretty good discussion so far...Everyone seems to understand the ramifications of this, even though most of us are not surprised by this at all...


13 posted on 03/22/2011 4:45:03 AM PDT by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus' sayin')
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To: 2harddrive

Bingo!!!


14 posted on 03/22/2011 4:46:05 AM PDT by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus' sayin')
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To: cmj328

Protecting the monopoly of the Federal Reserve.

Prior to the depression, It was not uncommon for individual banks to issue their own currency, backed by their local assets. THese were called National Notes. The looked like conventional currency except that they were brown in color and had the banks name on the front.


15 posted on 03/22/2011 4:47:17 AM PDT by catman67
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To: stevie_d_64

This thread has nothing to do with logic.


16 posted on 03/22/2011 4:47:41 AM PDT by allmost
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To: stevie_d_64
“Attempts to undermine the legitimate currency of this country are simply a unique form of domestic terrorism,” U.S. Attorney Anne Tompkins said. “While these forms of anti-government activities do not involve violence, they are every bit as insidious and represent a clear and present danger to the economic stability of this country.”

Nonviolent terrorist? Yuh, right. I guess the real crime is producing money made of actual precious metals. It makes the Fed look bad as they churn out their fiat currency by the bushel basket.

17 posted on 03/22/2011 4:48:52 AM PDT by 6SJ7 (atlasShruggedInd = TRUE)
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To: stevie_d_64

if anyone is engaging is domestic terrorism, its the federal reserve, who are stealing from us everyday


18 posted on 03/22/2011 4:52:28 AM PDT by 4rcane
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To: catman67

19 posted on 03/22/2011 4:54:47 AM PDT by catman67
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To: stevie_d_64

Amazing that they are so willing to go after these $ terrorists....and not the ones that yell Allah Akbar!


20 posted on 03/22/2011 4:58:27 AM PDT by Dudoight
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To: Quiller
As far as undermining the U.S. economy goes, if that's the basis for a terrorism charge, will they ask Rio to extradite our absentee president?

Zero...at Carnival!!!!

21 posted on 03/22/2011 5:00:45 AM PDT by Vaquero ("an armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: Quiller

The homeland security farce was designed ...not to protect us...but to way to control free men. No other reason.

Just like the other “terrorism branch”...the IRS, it is impossible for the free citizen NOT TO VIOLATE some regulation or law that is the domain of those systems for the complexity and overlap is beyond belief.

Between the two, we have no freedoms.


22 posted on 03/22/2011 5:02:58 AM PDT by DH (48th TFW, A&E Lakenheath England, 67-70)
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To: stevie_d_64
So, if you shoe my horse, and I pay you with a butchered hog (altered from it's 'bullion' state ... I'm guilty.

You too ... for receiving.

VALKYRIE !!

Without the enabler, a lot, if not all this insanity would never come to be.

One good thing though ... the lunatics are now identified.

23 posted on 03/22/2011 5:13:23 AM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true.)
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To: Vaquero

Vaquero,

You really need to give a heads up when posting a picture like this.

I was sitting here, having my first cup of coffee. Puked all over myself.

Where should I send my bill from the cleaners.


24 posted on 03/22/2011 5:16:53 AM PDT by 11johara28
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To: stevie_d_64

I think the real reason he was arrested was because he was related to Dr. Von Nostrand of New York City.


25 posted on 03/22/2011 5:19:15 AM PDT by 11johara28
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To: from occupied ga
You got it.

These days, if you want to be involved in criminal activity, become a politician.

The reason that every state and the federal government has laws against robbery and larcency is that the government doesn't like competition.

26 posted on 03/22/2011 5:25:12 AM PDT by sport
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To: allmost

Is anyone holding a gun on you making you stay on this thread?


27 posted on 03/22/2011 5:28:21 AM PDT by sport
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To: stevie_d_64

This is an utter travesty of justice! Does he have a legal defense fund where people can send money?


28 posted on 03/22/2011 5:29:11 AM PDT by Durus (You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality. Ayn Rand)
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To: Dudoight

The ones yelling, Allah Akbar are their allies and cohorts.


29 posted on 03/22/2011 5:29:58 AM PDT by sport
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To: stevie_d_64

This is all about the 16,000 lbs of silver & gold & also to keep the FED in business... not to mention so this huge shipment of Ron Paul Coins didn’t hit the public.

If Bernard von NotHaus is guilty of fake currency then isn’t the FED also guilty... as the Constitution states that US currency is to be coined in silver & gold?

Remember, the Federal Reserve is NOT the Gov’t... it is a group or private (corruption) corp to control all people.
Basically, it all boils down to the gov’t wanting the 16,000 lbs of silver & gold... talk about crooks!!


30 posted on 03/22/2011 5:39:20 AM PDT by shasta777
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To: 2harddrive

Just to answer 2harddrive... the coins are NOTHING close to looking like US Coins... it was the gov’t’s excuse to take this whole program down & more importantly... to steal all the gold & silver, all 16,000 lbs!!

As someone said, here is a guy whole provided coins at a little over spot & now is worth much more then issued... on the other hand you have the FED with their fiat currency notes worth much less then issued... The question is WHO do you Trust?


31 posted on 03/22/2011 5:39:45 AM PDT by shasta777
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To: stevie_d_64
You have a sound argument and I agree with you. What I don't understand is how could a jury not see the same way? It looks like a simple case of the government wanting to steal 7 million dollars worth of silver and the jury is letting them do it.
32 posted on 03/22/2011 5:40:01 AM PDT by 2001convSVT (That Beck guy was right about gold, too.)
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To: stevie_d_64

Obamabucks and Camel Cupons are heading to equal value.


33 posted on 03/22/2011 5:40:05 AM PDT by screaminsunshine (34 States)
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To: shasta777
The question is WHO (or what) do you Trust?

Good question, I would trust silver (or gold) coins in my hand over paper from a bankrupt government.

34 posted on 03/22/2011 5:45:19 AM PDT by 2001convSVT (That Beck guy was right about gold, too.)
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To: 11johara28
Where should I send my bill from the cleaners

Barry Soetoro
1600 Pennsylvania Ave DC

35 posted on 03/22/2011 5:51:02 AM PDT by Vaquero ("an armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: allmost

But the attack by Hasan at Fort Hood was not a case of “domestic terrorism”?


36 posted on 03/22/2011 5:55:20 AM PDT by jospehm20
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To: stevie_d_64
Domestic terrorism?

Let's talk Waco. Let's talk Ruby Ridge. Let's talk Project Gunwalker!

37 posted on 03/22/2011 5:56:00 AM PDT by TigersEye (Who crashed the markets on 9/15/08 and why?)
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To: sport; allmost; SAJ; 1rudeboy; Mase; Toddsterpatriot
This thread has nothing to do with logic.

Maybe not.

It would be interesting to get the T-dept's arguments that were so convincing that the jury only took a couple hours to unanimously agree.   The court docs should be public record, anyone got a link?  We should be focusing on money/trade and we're getting a lot of name-calling/violent-threats. 

Unless of course I'm wrong here and logic really doesn't belong here.

38 posted on 03/22/2011 6:04:31 AM PDT by expat_panama
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To: stevie_d_64

I bought a one ounce .999 Liberty “coin” on eBay for $46 right after this verdict was announced. Since then the seller has raised the price of similar ones to $99.


39 posted on 03/22/2011 6:06:06 AM PDT by absinthe (I don't eat liver. That much ketchup isn't good for you.)
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To: shasta777
the coins are NOTHING close to looking like US Coins

From the article:

The coins were marked with the dollar sign, the words “dollar,” “USA,” “Liberty,” “Trust in God” (instead of “In God We Trust”) and other features associated with legitimate U.S. coins.

That's close enough to counterfeiting for me.

Now, if he'd stamped them "Joe's Coins" or something, I'd have more trouble with his conviction.

40 posted on 03/22/2011 6:19:44 AM PDT by BfloGuy
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To: 2001convSVT

As one who is currently reporting for jury duty, I assure you that the ones selected to sit on a jury are the dullest knives in the drawer.

If you have a college degree or demonstrate common sense in your answers during the interview, you’re out the door pretty quickly.


41 posted on 03/22/2011 6:22:12 AM PDT by damper99
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To: Quiller

Exactly.

I know if you use a word over and over in an incorrect way it loses it’s sting or significance.

Could it be possible the the word terrorism is purposely being overused in order to soften it up? I mean in general. I this case in particular, it is probably being used to guide a courtroom or jury’s decision.


42 posted on 03/22/2011 6:27:02 AM PDT by BookaT (My cat's breath smells like cat food!)
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To: stevie_d_64
I love commodities backed currencies. The more the merrier. Heck, I'd even set up a business tracking exchange rates and farming the results out to retailers via mobile apps and the Internet.

Look at that... Free up the markets and even people like me start finding ways to CREATE JOBS.

43 posted on 03/22/2011 6:27:12 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (explosive bolts, ten thousand volts at a million miles an hour)
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To: BfloGuy

The dollar (often represented by the dollar sign $) is the name of the official currency of many countries, including the United States, Canada, the Eastern Caribbean territories, Ecuador, Suriname, El Salvador, Panama, Belize, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Brunei, East Timor, Australia, and New Zealand.

The Dollar Sign ($), an S crossed by two vertical bars, comes from the coat of arms set up by the King Ferdinand II of Aragon. The ‘S’ represents the motto “Non Plus Ultra” and the vertical bars symbolize the two Pillars of Hercules. This symbol (two pillars with S-shaped motto) first appeared in Spaniard ‘Pieces of eight’ , the currency used in the American colonies of the Spanish Empire, which then spread to the British colonies and later United States and Canada.

The argument that the US Treasury has a monopoly on the usage of the term or symbol for a ‘dollar’ is absurd. No trademark exists exists or law specifically prohibiting its use. Counterfeiting laws prohibit the making of US Federal Reserve Notes and denominations of currency, that was clearly not the intent here.


44 posted on 03/22/2011 6:31:13 AM PDT by RobertClark (On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.)
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To: BfloGuy

If it doesn’t say “legal tender”, then it can say whatever else it wants.


45 posted on 03/22/2011 6:31:57 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (explosive bolts, ten thousand volts at a million miles an hour)
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To: shasta777
the Constitution states that US currency is to be coined in silver & gold?

I think you're confused.

46 posted on 03/22/2011 6:55:42 AM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Math is hard. Harder if you're stupid.)
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To: 2harddrive
"...this guy’s cash was so similar..."

Yes, I understand that argument, but similar to what?

The US government has not issued gold coins or silver dollar coins for legal tender in living memory. Any US gold or silver dollar coins have greater numismatic value than bullion value - hence the US Mint issues that sell for FAR above their face value.

For example, if the US government exchanged the 1oz gold eagle coin for its face value of $50, then I would say that the government has a valid point about counterfeiting.
47 posted on 03/22/2011 7:02:41 AM PDT by Darteaus94025
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To: damper99

I got clipped for what I believe is the exact reson you state. I clarified somebody else’s stance as to my view point on it and it flustered the prosecutor who was obviously leading the entire jury during voir dire. The defense objected to his line of questioning me in particular and I got clipped immediately after that.


48 posted on 03/22/2011 7:27:05 AM PDT by jurroppi1
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To: stevie_d_64

This is what the King of England did: Claim every crime was a crime against the Crown/State. We kicked his butt and formed our own nation. Seems we might need to kick harder this time.


49 posted on 03/22/2011 8:15:43 AM PDT by CodeToad (Islam needs to be banned in the US and treated as a criminal enterprise.)
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To: 2001convSVT
You have a sound argument and I agree with you. What I don't understand is how could a jury not see the same way? It looks like a simple case of the government wanting to steal 7 million dollars worth of silver and the jury is letting them do it.

Pertty simple really. You have a bunch of jurors who are ignorant of the law and their rights as jurors, and the judge pretty much instructed them to return a guilty verdict. The key to modern tyranny when it's not just extreme violence at the point of a gun is almost always through the instructions to the jury.

Wish I could have been on the jury for this one.

50 posted on 03/22/2011 8:30:34 AM PDT by zeugma (Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam)
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