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The Gun Control in ObamaCare
The Moral Liberal ^ | 29 March, 2011 | GOA

Posted on 03/29/2011 4:57:29 AM PDT by marktwain

Liberty Alerts, Gun Owners of America

Sections 1501 and 1502 of HR 3590 — which contain the so-called “individual mandate” — require Americans to buy government-approved insurance and give the government carte blanche to require that these policies contain requirements like Barack Obama’s oft-stated goal of computerizing medical records in a national database. (Indeed, Fox News reported on March 26, 2010, that under the new federal health care law, our medical records will soon go online to be available to all doctors.)

This would make it impossible for Americans to keep private, medical information out of the government-controlled medical database that was created under Sec. 13001 of the stimulus bill. Once a person’s medical information has been put into the database, then the ATF and the FBI will be able to use it to deny law-abiding Americans their right to purchase firearms — just like the thousands of military veterans who have been denied their right to purchase firearms.

The problem with the veterans began in 1999, when under the direction of the Clinton administration, the Department of Veteran Affairs was obliged to share certain mental health records with the FBI for the purpose of adding names to the national instant check system (NICS). People whose names are added to NICS, of course, are not allowed to purchase or possess firearms.

The health records in question had to do with persons the VA had deemed “mental defectives.” Since 1968, persons so adjudicated have been prohibited from possessing firearms. For decades, the common understating of “metal defective” applied to people found not guilty of a crime by reason of insanity. In 1999, however, the Clinton Justice Department unilaterally decided to greatly expand the definition to include the VA’s very broad use of the term.

Without notifying the people affected by the decision, the VA turned over the names of 90,000 veterans who ”because of injury or disease lack the mental capacity to contract or manage their own affairs.” Under the guise of “mental defectiveness,” therefore, many veterans who served their country honorably have lost their Second Amendment rights for life because a doctor or a bureaucrat in the VA appointed someone to look over their finances.

Thanks to routine data dumps, the number of veterans who have lost their gun rights due to common maladies like Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) has increased to an estimated 150,000. PTSD, incidentally, affects as many as one-third of all combat troops.

These veterans were not convicted of a crime, were not found to be a danger to anyone, and they were not afforded any meaningful due process of law. They were added to NICS simply on the basis of the opinion of a government psychiatrist.

To make matters worse, what began under the Clinton administration as a blatant illegitimate abuse of power was codified by a law, commonly known as the Veterans Disarmament Act of 2008, signed by President George W. Bush.

If such a travesty of justice was made possible through the VA’s national health care system, there is every reason to believe that it will also occur under Obama’s proposed health care legislation.

Now, we fast forward to the present, where our medical records will go online soon. Is there any reason to believe that this information won’t also be available to the ATF and the FBI?

We remember how after Joe the Plumber took on then-Presidential candidate Barack Obama, Joe’s tax records were “mysteriously” discovered and released to the public in an effort to discredit him.

Clearly, once one arm of the federal government has our medical records, other arms will gain access, in the same way that the FBI got the original veterans’ names (90,000 of them) in 1999.

What about the Second Amendment protections in the bill?

Question: How does the above square with SEC. 2716 (2) and (3) of the bill? This section says:

(2) LIMITATION ON DATA COLLECTION.—None of the authorities provided to the Secretary under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act or an amendment made by that Act shall be construed to authorize or may be used for the collection of any information relating to—A) the lawful ownership or possession of a firearm or ammunition; (B) the lawful use of a firearm or ammunition; or (C) the lawful storage of a firearm or ammunition.(3) LIMITATION ON DATABASES OR DATA BANKS.— None of the authorities provided to the Secretary under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act or an amendment made by that Act shall be construed to authorize or may be used to maintain records of individual ownership or possession of a firearm or ammunition.

This language appears on the face to prohibit the use of any data collection with regard to use firearms. Does this section provide adequate protection for gun owners, and specifically for veterans?

Answer: This language (section 2716) prohibits the use of the federal database for storing information about who has a gun (based on questions asked by a physician with respect to gun ownership).

It does not prohibit the use of the database to determine who has a psychological “disorder” like ADHD or PTSD. And it does not prohibit the ATF from trolling the database for persons with ADHD and PTSD (independent of any issue of gun ownership) — and sending their names to the FBI’s database of prohibited persons because they are “mental defectives” (18 U.S.C. 922 (g)). HIPAA would not prohibit this “law enforcement function,” and ObamaCare may significantly broaden the list of people whose determination is an “official” determination similar to the VA psychiatrists who have disarmed 150,000 veterans.

To say that the health care database would never be used this way is to ignore history. Who ever thought in 1993 — when the Brady Law was passed — that the federal government would soon begin denying military veterans their right to own a gun … not for any crimes committed, but because of a psychiatrist’s determination that such veterans suffered from PTSD?

KEYWORDS: banglist; democrats; gun; obama; obamacare; rapeofliberty; records; socialisthealthcare
When we look at legislation, we need to pay attention to how it can be abused, not to what those who are pushing it say the benefits will be. Unintened consequences abound from ill concieved legislation. Many would even say that the unintended consequences were what the legislation was actually intended to do.
1 posted on 03/29/2011 4:57:34 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain

This same Obama, per Fox, is now planning to give guns (and arms) to the Libyan rebels (think Al Quaeda).


2 posted on 03/29/2011 5:12:14 AM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: marktwain

The cabal infesting Washington is riddled with traitors. These elitists stupidly think they’re immune to justice and karma.

3 posted on 03/29/2011 5:18:10 AM PDT by sergeantdave (The democrat party is a seditious organization and must be outlawed)
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To: marktwain

I would think mental health groups would be all over this. With the government accessing our complete medical records could for example someone being treated for depression be denied not only a gun permit but also other government issued licenses and permits?

4 posted on 03/29/2011 5:22:49 AM PDT by The Great RJ (The Bill of Rights: Another bill members of Congress haven't read.)
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To: marktwain

Republicans in congress are not going to defund ObamaCare, in fact they wanted it to pass by not having it read in to the record so all would know what it contained.

The Birth issue is the last best hope and our own conservative talking bobbleheads refuse to discuss it.

5 posted on 03/29/2011 5:29:29 AM PDT by stockpirate (Rebellion to tyranny is obedience to God!)
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To: marktwain

“Unintened consequences abound from ill concieved legislation.”

Yes, that is true...But it is more malicious and intentional than many see it as it is...

PTSD is somethig that is very real to some veterans and people who have experienced a ver stressful event in their life, it is not exclusively contained within acts of war, pardon me, Ineed to rephrase that Kinetic Military Action...

What Isee a majority of folks go through is not so much of a physiological effect of combat, as it is a test of one’s morals in relation to the horrible things we had to do in combat...Whether you were behind the rifle, or on some radar screen pushing buttons and making things dissapear, knowing what the results of those jobs entailed...

It did stress me out, but I was able to objectively put it into perspective and understand that it was a team effort, and we were victorious, otherwise I would not be here today if we had not succeeded...

It does break muy heart and it effects me to no end that Iknow there are people who have served admirably in the defense of this country who are affected by this unfortunate condition...And they need to be supported and thanked at every step of the way for their service, and by those of us who have been there and done that as well...

A little support goes a long way, there is no reason why someone who has been diagnosed with PTSD to be banned from ownership and use of firearms...Those who are clinically affected more so by the condition can be rehabilitated to a high degree of confidence to the same end...There is solice to understand that anyones problems can be helped back to some sort of normalcy, and that needs to be the goal...

Suppressing an unalienable right to those who volunteered to serve this country is just another liberal progressive effort to breed independence and individualism out of the citizenry...And that is what needs to be in the spotlight more than the private sufferings of those who are, in my opinion, temporarily affected by traumatic stress...

This is just my opinion, I have pushed buttons and made things dissapear...Do I think about it??? Yes, I do...Does my moral view cause me to be in conflict to what I did??? No...Because I didn’t murder, I killed...There is a big difference...And the moral battle I might have had has been resolved through discussions, comradery, and the knowledge that my actions and the actions of other have saved lives...

If the issue is about guns and who should have them, liberal progressives are the last people I would want to decide that fate...For obvious reasons...

But what do I know, right??? Disrespect a veteran of any background or capacity, and I might very well not be very nice to the insulter, I might be considered very unreasonable and mean-spirited and you might not like me much after that...But for the audacity of your position, you will live to see another dawn...Many have fought and died for the right of the people to insult those who have served this country...

Does that mean I am not capable of maintaining a maturity and a sense of right and wrong, to be of clear thought and purpose if at the time I am going though an insulter of US veterans, like Sherman through Georgia...And I happen to have a firearm locked and cocked and ready to rock???

That I can’t be trusted???

What a shame if you cannot...I have no use for people like that who cannot...

Sorry for the long rant...I tend to read between the lines and it gets me to be a little too chatty...

6 posted on 03/29/2011 5:40:54 AM PDT by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus' sayin')
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To: stevie_d_64
Whether you were behind the rifle, or on some radar screen pushing buttons and making things dissapear, knowing what the results of those jobs entailed...

Heck, I just work on the computers that generate the radar screens, and it stresses me out sometimes. Hopefully some psychiatrist won't take that as a sign that I'm about to snap and go postal, and report me to NICS.

7 posted on 03/29/2011 6:12:41 AM PDT by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: mvpel

Loose Lips brother!!! ;-)

You were a Data Systems Tech???

If you were you’d definetely hated people like me...

8 posted on 03/29/2011 6:21:41 AM PDT by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus' sayin')
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To: stevie_d_64

Never enlisted - my eyesight was too back back before they invented LASIK.

I take it you would have been oen of those systems components we commonly describe as an interface problem between the chair and the keyboard, right? ;-)

9 posted on 03/29/2011 6:58:49 AM PDT by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: marktwain

RE: Medical records and gun control. For years now, pediatricians have been asking parents if there are ‘guns in the home’. The first time this happened to me, I was quite stunned and answered without thinking. Then came questions about how many, are they loaded, secure, etc. I no longer go to that pediatrician, but I wonder if this data has been collected from others. Women usually take their children to the doctor and they may be more likely to give up this information, than men.

10 posted on 03/29/2011 7:02:37 AM PDT by sportutegrl
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To: marktwain; All
LOL just a question

Been to the doctor lately ? I'm 6 foot 4 inches tall and look like Grizzly Adams and my Doctor asks me {Do you feel safe at home } i look at my wife and she looks at me and i laugh so hard i almost fall out the chair along with my wife and the doctor he tells me “Sorry new Govt Rules” then he asks me if i feel “Threatened at all” to which i replied only if your gonna try and give me a shot Doc lol

He don't even ask me no more but when he says how ya feeling i just chuckle and he smiles ....

Last time i asked him how many people say they feel threatened he said he gets about the same reply from most people but some get really mad {I’d hate to be a doc today }

11 posted on 03/29/2011 7:04:29 AM PDT by ATOMIC_PUNK (Any man may make a mistake ; none but a fool will persist in it . { Latin proverb })
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To: stevie_d_64

RE Post 6:

Well said, brother.

Yer a good man, stevie_d.

God bless.

12 posted on 03/29/2011 9:00:34 AM PDT by NFHale (The Second Amendment - By Any Means Necessary.)
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To: marktwain
I don't believe for 1 min. that this is not a planned way to marginalize veterans, anybody with any training to stand up to this takeover of the country.

the Republicans in office are either willing accomplices, felony stupid, or incredibly inept. Or all the above.

13 posted on 03/29/2011 9:46:15 AM PDT by SERE_DOC (My Rice Krispies told me to stay home & clean my weapons!)
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To: marktwain

Actually there’s EVEN MORE to fear from ObamaCare.

When it comes into effect it makes a felony of not having ‘qualifying’ healthcare coverage, with no exception for the unemployeed or a “break in coverage” from switching plans; this means that with the huge unemployment rate we may well have HUGE blocks of instant felons, and therefore instant blocks of people prohibited from owning firearms.

There’s a book titled Three Felonies a Day which describes the vast expansion of felony criminal-law as well as the current trend toward rather vague language. All of this coalesces into a thick cynical soup where the government can decide who has any right to vote or carry a firearm.

Ayn Rand put in most beautifully in this paragraph:
“Did you really think that we want those laws to be observed? We want them broken. You’d better get it straight that it’s not a bunch of boy scouts you’re up against . . . We’re after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you’d better get wise to it. There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What’s there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted [Frederick Mann: Obfuscation of meaning is a key element of the con games bureaucrats and politicians play.] - and you create a nation of law-breakers - and then you cash in on guilt. Now that’s the system, Mr. Rearden, and once you understand it, you’ll be much easier to deal with.”

14 posted on 03/29/2011 9:48:15 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: marktwain
Your health used against you just to restrict your access to guns?

Think again...

So if you do not tote the party line, what other leverage do we have against you Comrade...

1.) Your CDL?
2.) Your Pilots License?

I called one of the aviation "alphabet soup" organizations about "other" branches potentially getting access to these records and how will they be used against us ( they do it in Canada) during the Obamacare debate

I could hear crickets in the background, they had no idea what I was talking about they are asleep, as well as a good chunk of the nation....

15 posted on 03/29/2011 10:02:02 AM PDT by taildragger (( Palin / Mulally 2012 ))
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To: marktwain
11 hurt in shooting, bus crash in Englewood

By Ryan Haggerty and Andrew L. Wang

Tribune reporters

11:31 AM CDT, March 29, 2011

Eleven people were hurt — two seriously — when gunmen opened fire near 75th Street and Vincennes Avenue in Englewood this morning and a fleeing car smashed into a CTA bus, witnesses and officials said.

It did not appear that anyone was wounded by gunfire, but instead were injured in the accident or by flying glass, the officials and witnesses said.

At around 9:30 a.m. , two men jumped from a red truck and began walking down the block, firing as the truck followed them, a witness said. They appeared to be aiming at a black Intrepid sedan.

“These young guys stepped out with AK-47s or Uzis or something and shot up the whole block,” said Al Perkins, head cook at Ryan Anthony’s restaurant in the 7400 block of South Vincennes.,0,3668090,print.story

16 posted on 03/29/2011 10:12:53 AM PDT by KeyLargo
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To: mvpel

I operated it, and if it broke, I called someone to fix it...Not that we were lazy, its that we were too damn busy watching for stuff that would kill us all if we missed even one...

I went grey early on in life because of the stress...hehehe

17 posted on 03/29/2011 12:43:54 PM PDT by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus' sayin')
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To: marktwain

I’ve read through the entirety of sections 1501 and 1502 and can’t find what you’re talking about. Also, there is no section 2716. I don’t agree with Obamacare, but I’d rather read the bill myself and form my own opinions, and I can’t find anything to support your argument in the actual bill.

18 posted on 08/14/2013 6:54:31 PM PDT by Swrigh98
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To: Swrigh98

I did not write the article, I only posted it.

19 posted on 08/14/2013 7:31:01 PM PDT by marktwain (The MSM must die for the Republic to live. Long live the new media!)
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