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Businesses behaving badly to job seekers (Calling All FR HR Types)
The Boston Globe ^ | 29 March 2011 | Katie Johnston Chase

Posted on 03/29/2011 5:45:36 PM PDT by buccaneer81

The software company definitely seemed interested in hiring Tom Fleming. It set up breakfast and lunch meetings, then flew the Concord salesman to its headquarters in Virginia for interviews with a half-dozen executives, including the founder and chief executive. But after promising to get back to him in a week, the company never contacted him again.

(Excerpt) Read more at boston.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: Massachusetts
KEYWORDS: hiring; hr; jobs; rudeness
It's one thing to never hear back, but when they won't reimburse for travel per previous agreement, that's just sleazy.
1 posted on 03/29/2011 5:45:40 PM PDT by buccaneer81
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To: buccaneer81

i grew up in Acton MA and worked in the northern VA area for about 10 years.

yes, people are that sleazy... at a minimum.

i’ve had headhunters try to get me fired from the job i was in so they could put me on a contract they had.


2 posted on 03/29/2011 5:50:14 PM PDT by sten (fighting tyranny never goes out of style)
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To: sten

They could also try to fill the opening you left behind!


3 posted on 03/29/2011 5:55:16 PM PDT by proxy_user
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To: buccaneer81
Pendulum swings. Such firms can survive doing this during this economy and job market, but they will die when the situation normalizes.

I have experienced the worst treatment when looking for a job I have ever experienced at any level of doing the most menial work as a kid. My wife got relocated and I had to quit and leave my job of many years.

The degree of apathetic indifference which mid level managers base their decisions on when it comes to managing the company's assets, lines of business, and staff is creating a future nightmare for firms. The key for these managers is to operate under the radar. When these firms need strong leadership to regrow lines of business and services, they are doomed.

4 posted on 03/29/2011 5:59:22 PM PDT by blackdog (The mystery of government is not how Washington works but how to make it stop)
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To: buccaneer81

This is a BS article. The HR types don’t say “No” (1) in case a candidate they chose does not turn out well and they need a back-up, and (2) in case they are challenged or worse still, sued over a ‘refusal’. And yes, overwork/laziness may be in there as well when you may get 1,000 applicants for a position.


5 posted on 03/29/2011 6:00:28 PM PDT by I am Richard Brandon
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To: buccaneer81

I don’t think of your average HR person as being the FR type.


6 posted on 03/29/2011 6:01:29 PM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: buccaneer81
We once had a candidate who concluded and interview with "Please, I need this job". We didn't think he was up to snuff by that point. We felt horrible and it took a very long time to respond to him with a rejection.

I still feel bad. Sad thing is, it almost immediately eliminated him as a candidate.

We REALLY felt uncomfortable after that and who wants someone who has no problem putting you in an extremely difficult situation even before you hire them?

7 posted on 03/29/2011 6:01:58 PM PDT by Caipirabob ( Communists... Socialists... Democrats...Traitors... Who can tell the difference?)
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To: blackdog

I really think a lot of this (based on the HR dept in my company) is that they are “compensating” (some would say retaliating) for the relatively easy time job seekers had from 1995-2005.


8 posted on 03/29/2011 6:02:19 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: buccaneer81

Sorry that people get their feelings hurt but the only thing that should be important is landing a job.


9 posted on 03/29/2011 6:04:01 PM PDT by Vendome ("Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it anyway")
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To: Caipirabob

I would feel bad for a guy like that too, but no way would I ever hire him. His judgment was faulty, and that is a big red flag.


10 posted on 03/29/2011 6:04:19 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: 9YearLurker; RikaStrom
I don’t think of your average HR person as being the FR type.

Huh!

11 posted on 03/29/2011 6:05:36 PM PDT by tioga
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To: 9YearLurker
I don’t think of your average HR person as being the FR type.

Back about ten years or so, a very enterprising FReeper put together a list, based on a thread asking about education and occupation of FReepers. It was very interesting. There actually were some HR types listed. I have it bookmarked, I'll send it to you.

There was also a FR photo album. I was in that, too.

12 posted on 03/29/2011 6:08:52 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: buccaneer81
I really think a lot of this (based on the HR dept in my company) is that they are “compensating” (some would say retaliating) for the relatively easy time job seekers had from 1995-2005.

That's absolute BS for them to act this way. I agree though. I see my company acting this way because I got lot's of over time when times were good.

I understand times are bad. But don't act like my past earnings were on LOAN.

13 posted on 03/29/2011 6:09:35 PM PDT by CommieCutter (Promote Liberal Extinction: Support gay marriage and abortion!)
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To: I am Richard Brandon

there’s a big difference between dealing with 1000 apps for one job and actually bringing in a far smaller number of people for interviews. The latter group deserves a close-out email and/or phone call. A hospital I worked for wouldn’t contact anyone unless the job was actually filled. So, if they didn’t like anybody, then the ones who interviewed never heard back. Not very professional unless the applicants were told what the drill will be.


14 posted on 03/29/2011 6:11:59 PM PDT by Sioux-san
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To: 9YearLurker
As promised:

FReeper Profiles, December 11, 2001

15 posted on 03/29/2011 6:14:00 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: buccaneer81
Fair enough description, but in what way is that beneficial to the future operations of a company?

It's like saying it's ok to be rude and unprofessional because you invited less than ideal guests to your home for last year's party?

16 posted on 03/29/2011 6:15:25 PM PDT by blackdog (The mystery of government is not how Washington works but how to make it stop)
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To: buccaneer81
From the FReeper profiles in 2001:

HUMAN RESOURCES

* Executive IT staffing industry - Raleigh

* Headhunter - Curmudgeon

* Masters Degree in Human Resources - Kim C

* Account Executive with Recruiting Firm specializing in Information Technology positions - Kim C

* Former headhunter - mlmr

* Human Resources. - RoseD

* Human Resources - benefits administration for major supplier to big 3. - Zcat

* Retired benefits director. - tnwalker

* Senior Human Resource Professional, Airline Employee - Central Scrutiniser

* Currently (for the past thirteen years) Human Resources consultant - eloy

* Production Coach (kind of an HR position) - Texas2Step

* Spent 7 years in Personnel - Sueann

* Part owner and chief financial officer of a personnel services company - angelo

17 posted on 03/29/2011 6:17:20 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: blackdog
Fair enough description, but in what way is that beneficial to the future operations of a company?

We've all heard that US companies plan for a year, while Japanese and Chinese companies plan for 20 years.

I think we in the West invest emotions into business situations where logic should rule.

18 posted on 03/29/2011 6:20:14 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: buccaneer81
And as badly as the guy was treated he learned something from it to use going forward. If it's a trend, use it to your advantage. If it's a sign of unhealthy philosophical norms in a company, consider being indifferent and dismissive to their future relations with you within the industry. Unwarranted treatment comes back on you ten fold.

This era of tough times will produce a future group of leaders and workers who will be far better than their previous selves would have become.

It's a Dickins world out there folks.

19 posted on 03/29/2011 6:21:27 PM PDT by blackdog (The mystery of government is not how Washington works but how to make it stop)
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To: CommieCutter
I see my company acting this way because I got lot's of over time when times were good.

I've seen mid-level suits making $80k furious because guys in greasy coveralls made $90k with overtime.

20 posted on 03/29/2011 6:23:18 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: buccaneer81
but when they won't reimburse for travel per previous agreement,

File a claim against them in small claims court.

21 posted on 03/29/2011 6:23:31 PM PDT by glorgau
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To: blackdog
This era of tough times will produce a future group of leaders and workers who will be far better than their previous selves would have become.

That, I agree with. I also thin the next generation will benefit as well. My BIL is 51, has been out of his field (laid off from IT) for three years and is working driving an airport shuttle for 25% of his former salary. His kids (and mine, to a smaller degree) see how hard it is out there and that life can turn on a dime.

I predict a bumper crop of entrepreneurs and self-employed people in the next 10-15 years.

22 posted on 03/29/2011 6:28:43 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: buccaneer81

Tom Fleming is over 45, any questions?


23 posted on 03/29/2011 6:31:34 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Let us prey!)
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To: glorgau
File a claim against them in small claims court.

That's one remedy, but it requires evidence. In the article one guy had the Headhunter intervene and squeeze it out of the company.

24 posted on 03/29/2011 6:32:25 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: Revolting cat!
Tom Fleming is over 45, any questions?

Spot on.

I turn 48 in June, have worked for the same company for 21 years and have seen people just like me cut loose. Looking over one's shoulder is no way to live.

25 posted on 03/29/2011 6:36:56 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: buccaneer81
HR doesn't hire, the hiring managers do. What does the HR do? I don't remember any layoffs in the HR Depts. of companies I worked for. I recall seeing many poofters there, but that's really irrelevant. (Or is it?)

Still, the function of HR is to (underlined) reject candidates, and to handle the layoffs. When a company, like say, Google, receives thousands of resumes a day, who do you think screens them and rejects the majority of them? HR. When your main function is rejecting (the hapless applicants and those laid off), that kinda affects your thinking, doesn't it. Let's not kid ourselves about the true function of HR.

26 posted on 03/29/2011 6:37:51 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Let us prey!)
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To: buccaneer81

This attitude has caused me to look for another career entirely.
Yeah— it’s a bad time to want to switch jobs, but it’s more of a 4-5 year plan. I think I can freelance with my current choice of change. They just ticked me off so bad it’s fueled me to do other things.


27 posted on 03/29/2011 6:42:50 PM PDT by CommieCutter (Promote Liberal Extinction: Support gay marriage and abortion!)
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To: buccaneer81

I’ve seen mid-level suits making $80k furious because guys in greasy coveralls made $90k with overtime.


I see that today. $20/hr may not sound like much, but cap on 15hrs/week at $30/hr, that’s another 25K loaded on top of their base $52K.


28 posted on 03/29/2011 6:59:19 PM PDT by txhurl
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To: buccaneer81

I’ve heard of some great “bait and switch” tricks the HR people have tried on.

One is to offer a good paying job locally, then when people apply, to offer them a job in ‘Podunk’ at less than half that.

Another is to offer a “training wage” or “probationary period” at much less than full pay.

The CEO of one company suspected hanky-panky in his HR department, so he sent his nephew to interview with a perfect resume. Not only did the HR guy try to stick it to him with below standard pay, but sensing someone who really wanted the job, he demanded a kickback for hiring him. The nephew hesitated, then agreed, so sensing weakness, the HR guy hit on the nephew sexually.

When the nephew refused, the HR guy tried to bully, then threaten him that he would never work in that town again unless he agreed to the sex act. The nephew left, so, true to his word, the HR guy wrote up a scathing report on him, even accusing him of petty theft.

Soon the company had a new HR chief. The nephew. The old HR guy then sued the company for unfair dismissal. Their legal department was briefly concerned until a dozen employees came forward to complain about the old HR guy.


29 posted on 03/29/2011 7:20:34 PM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: buccaneer81
FReeper Profiles, December 11, 2001

I seemed to have remembered that thread so I went back to look for myself. Yep, found myself - and see how far I've come from those days.

Wow, at the time I was pursuing my Masters (achieved that) and was a Senior Manager at an advertising agency in Chicago named Leo Burnett.

Now I'm a Principal Systems Architect at a large, international bank with a nice office and a staff.

I wish everyone could be as fortunate as I am.

30 posted on 03/29/2011 7:28:28 PM PDT by usconservative (When The Ballot Box No Longer Counts, The Ammunition Box Does. (What's In Your Ammo Box?))
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To: buccaneer81
Then, there's this...
31 posted on 03/29/2011 7:32:12 PM PDT by pabianice
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To: Revolting cat!
HR doesn't hire, the hiring managers do. What does the HR do?

Somehow, some way, HR almost always manages to filter out the truly good candidates and send the really crappy ones through to the hiring managers though.

I've been a hiring manager in my career and that's typically been my experience. I've only managed to find good people by BYPASSING H.R. and doing the recruiting myself.

H.R. Sucks, period. Typically staffed by a bunch of college "C" grade morons who know nothing more than to search resumes for buzz-words and acronyms because they have no real technical (or other) skills to speak of.

Again, just MY experience.

32 posted on 03/29/2011 7:32:51 PM PDT by usconservative (When The Ballot Box No Longer Counts, The Ammunition Box Does. (What's In Your Ammo Box?))
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To: Revolting cat!
Tom Fleming is over 45, any questions?

Nope. Wait till he turns 50, then 55. Then he'll really understand how hard it is to find a job....

33 posted on 03/29/2011 7:34:17 PM PDT by usconservative (When The Ballot Box No Longer Counts, The Ammunition Box Does. (What's In Your Ammo Box?))
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To: buccaneer81

I think HR types are behaving differently than in the past. When I was looking for work a few years back I was shocked at the lack of common courtesy. I’m doing okay now, but I recall being offered jobs on at least three occasions, but was never able to start due to some inexplicable lack of internal approvals. Been through the multiple interviews without any definitive rejection letter or response - in some cases received gratuitiously rude rejections. I think that some basic level of courtesy has eroded across society. I’m not an HR type, but do make a point to respond to every phone call/e-mail even if only in a cursory way as to do otherwise would be rude. HR people that do otherwise should be fired and perhaps learn some manners.


34 posted on 03/29/2011 7:45:22 PM PDT by purplelobster
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To: sten
i grew up in ...

i’ve had headhunters ...

... the job i was in ...

No offense intended, but you know that "ka-donk" sound and those hysterical giggles you've probably heard when leaving an interview, or after submitting an application?

I know what caused it.

35 posted on 03/29/2011 7:50:29 PM PDT by meadsjn (Sarah 2012, or sooner)
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To: buccaneer81
I think things changed when Personnel was changed to Human Resources. They cut out the person.

I've been in the position to sidestep HR for the last twenty or so years, but it hasn't prevented me from seeing how they operate. My current employer has one fully staffed (and most likely overstaffed) department and that is HR. The problem is that they have no idea of what the jobs involve and that there are certain types of people who fit certain jobs. They look to see if they have a degree and it doesn't need be in a related field. Ever see a 40% turnover in the course of a year?

Of course there is also the other problem with our HR department. Half the time when you go there for information, they're closed for a baby or wedding shower, a department trip to the outlet stores or a baseball game.
36 posted on 03/29/2011 8:16:09 PM PDT by Free_SJersey (Celebrate Diversity------------ Divide and Conquer?)
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To: Revolting cat!
I recall seeing many poofters there,

So true. In my company of roughly 1000 employees, the HR staff numbers about 15. Exactly ONE is a white male, and as you can guess, he is the spitting image of Harvey Fierstein.

One other function of HR is that of "hatchet man." I don't discipline my guys, by policy I have to tell HR what they did wrong, and then HR passes judgment and imposes sentence. I can't suspend anyone, or even tell them to go home early and cool off. It's like being a teacher and sending an unruly pupil to the office.

37 posted on 03/29/2011 8:27:46 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: pabianice

I grew up in MA. Digital was the promised land in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s.


38 posted on 03/29/2011 8:34:00 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: Free_SJersey

Everything you say is true. Spot on.


39 posted on 03/29/2011 8:36:52 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: Vendome
Sorry that people get their feelings hurt but the only thing that should be important is landing a job.

yes, but when you go through 3-4 interviews for a position and don't hear back, it's... not nice... this recently happened to someone i know who was interviewing with Amazon for an IT job... he had gone through four interviews... as far as he could tell, the last interview went well... the interviewer made it sound like there would be a next step... and then NADA... fortunately for this person, in two-months' time, he ended up receiving FOUR job offers... happy for him...

40 posted on 03/29/2011 8:45:02 PM PDT by latina4dubya ( self-proclaimed tequila snob)
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To: latina4dubya

I know it sucks but you have have a thick face and a black heart and only concern yourself with getting that job or a job.

It’s not personal and I wish people were more considerate but look at it from their perspective. They know how bad and sometimes desperately someone wants the job and facing you over the phone and tell you they have made a decision that doesn’t include you invites pain.

They know they are going to get questions like what could I have demonstrated better? and a million other questions that come up and believe me, it’s no better telling someone we aren’t hiring you, than it is to fire someone.

I personally don’t have a problem telling someone we have made a decision and feel it’s better for everyone, including my conscience..

Then again, I am never late cuz I consider it a four letter word, as in rude and several others people think of when they think of you because you are like every other person in their life that wastes their time.

I use to get irritated at the interview process not so much because I needed the job, I don’t. I would get irritated at some of the dumbest things that have ever been said or their decision hire moronic, poseurs, who couldn’t close a closet door.

The way you get a job is to distinguish yourself from all other and demonstrate you are a professional who understands the job better than anyone and can execute.

In my case it was sales of telecom services. I never really cared what company I worked for just so long as they left me alone and since I was always 200-400% of quota they should never ever bug me. Yes, I am a primadonna and I only know of 4 others like me in the country.

There are more but the ones I met were just like me. Professional Salespeople whose only goal was to help people solve problems and achieve their goals. Further, we won’t even talk to you if you aren’t the CEO, CFO and CTO.

In each case where I actually competed against them I discovered we all pretty much sold the same and the feedback I would get from clients is the decision was really difficult but there were only two choices with companies who understood their needs.

In sales there are liars(thieves), chumps(they occassionally get lucky), Salespeople(They work way to hard and are deficient in selling skills and how their products and services can help) and there are Professional Salespeople.

We understand the selling process and how our products and services can best help an organization best achieve their goals and we demystify the buying and acquisition process. We can explain it, teach it and demonstrate it at the drop of a dime.

I give several classes on sales and have to push the Mickey Mouse stuff they have learned thus far out of their heads. I then get in the trenches and sit right by them, demonstrating exactly the approach.

Probably went on a bit much but wanted to impress that you can’t win them all, but more doors are always open and sometimes it was meant to be the way it is.

Just demonstrate excellence and it will eventually work out, even if it is painful.


41 posted on 03/29/2011 9:23:06 PM PDT by Vendome ("Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it anyway")
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To: buccaneer81
I had this exact experience with two different Fortune 500's after my "retirement" following three and four interviews, both having engaged VP's by the time they commenced ignoring me.

One of these companies was large computer and printer maker where I had three interviews for a position as a project manager and then dead silence. I learned later from a friend at the same company that the position had been filled by a Russian twenty-five years my junior and in all likelihood I had just been H1B "due diligence".

The next company flew me to Texas FOUR times for interviews and told me after the final interview they had checked my references and were preparing an offer and like the first I never heard from them again. My follow-ups went unacknowledged and about a month later I found a post on a blog that the company had hired a guy away from Motorola for a strikingly similar position.

Eventually I came to realize I was just too old, too white and too heterosexual to be considered employable by an American company.

When the Chinese came for me it was completely different, they flew me and my wife to China first class and while I discussed business and toured the company a couple of the executives english speaking wives gave my wife the grand tour of Shanghai. We left with an agreement they have not deviated from.

42 posted on 03/29/2011 9:42:04 PM PDT by WalterSobchak2012
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To: meadsjn

ka-donk? no idea what that means. having been the cto of 3 different corporations, and president of my own for over 12 years, i haven’t had many rejections (if that’s the implication)

since you’ve highlight ‘i’ many times, i’m guessing you’re the internet syntax police. grats. you’re passive aggressive ‘suggestion’ has been duly noted, and promptly disregarded.

maybe when you’ve typed as much as i have, you’ll come to realize capitalization on a web board is irrelevant compared to content when time is limited.

then again, many people cannot help but stare at their own shoes. while others, prefer to look at the bigger picture.


43 posted on 03/30/2011 1:06:36 AM PDT by sten (fighting tyranny never goes out of style)
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To: tioga; 9YearLurker
I don’t think of your average HR person as being the FR type.
Huh!

Yeah, but we all agree I am not your average PC type either. :-)

This is a very sticky subject, and I can see both sides. As for me, I am an HR Manager of a privately-held small company based in Texas. Which is MUCH better than a large publically-held company located anywhere else. Of course my experience is in this small little section in Houston, I don't know what other companies are doing, I'm just making sure my company is doing the right thing.

My job is to protect my company in case of hiring lawsuits, or rather any lawsuits generated by the employees or potential employees. Secondly, my job is to protect my employees from other employees, clients, contractors and general miscreants... heck, even from themselves sometimes.

And before everyone gets up in arms, Texas is a right-to-work state. There are more laws on the books to protect employees than you can shake a stick at. The only things protecting employers are their HR people, their legal people and the company’s own good sense in policies and procedures. And yes I know, that not always the best either.

As for hiring, I’ve heard the “don’t tell anyone until a decision is made” school of thought. I’m not a fan of it. The reason it exists is that if you tell someone they are “not it”, and they find out that you are still hiring, there is a possibility of a lawsuit heading your direction, especially if that person is qualified but you just don’t like them. I’m more of a fan of having a grading scale, each step of the process is worth so many points, and you need to have XX number of points to move forward. That way you can let the people who are “not it” know immediately, and you can tell them why. Just make sure that whatever reason is given is legal and JUSTIFIED.

There are horror stories on both sides, I’ve interviewed some supremely awful candidates, as well as some “knock them out of the park” candidates. I’ve also interviewed with some people and have to shake my head at the entire process.

I will give people this, most HR people have no idea what skill set they are looking for when they source candidates for a hiring manager. I recommend that whenever possible, find out who the hiring manager is and bypass HR entirely. Once the hiring manager likes you, they can maneuver around HR to get you into the position, especially when you are dealing with large bureaucratic type companies who have policy upon policy just to open a window.

I can tell you I’ve been seeing some really odd things lately. My company is a staffing company, we do Information Technology. In the last three months we have seen hiring companies just do, tremendously odd things. For example, this one client hired two people from us, these were full-time direct hires. In one case they let him go in 5 weeks, in the other case 4 weeks. Companies are giving NO leeway to candidates. The excuse their HR department gave was that the candidate was not senior enough, didn’t have enough experience and that they were letting her go effective now. Didn’t the three face-to-face interviews clear that up? There apparently was no other excuse given, just you aren’t senior enough in your skills, thanks, bye. (shakes head). And this is not the only company I’m hearing who is doing this, it’s way strange.

My company is currently looking to hire a phone sales person. This is just a small sampling from that process. We had 123 people apply for the position (this is a draw vs. commission sales role – draw is 30K a year, no cap on commission). In reviewing resumes I responded to 60 people that I was interested and would like to talk to them about their background and to call me (with a direct phone number) at their convenience. Of those 60, I had 12 call me. Of those 12, I eliminated 6 in the initial phone screen. Of the remaining 6, I scheduled them all to come in and to a face to face. 3 of them had criminal backgrounds so bad that I could not overlook them in the hiring process. (child abuse, felony theft, and case of child sexual misconduct). So that now leaves me with 3 candidates out of the original 123. Of those three, I brought two back for a working interview, and yes we paid them for their work. This is to see if they like the atmosphere, the team, the job, and to see what we do for a day. One of them flat out told us he was waiting for another offer to come in and he called to tell us he was taking that role the next day, and we did ultimately hire the last person.

I suppose like everything else, there are HR managers and departments you should avoid like the plague and there are candidates that need to be calssified as No Interest, ever.

44 posted on 03/30/2011 4:25:26 PM PDT by RikaStrom (Pray for Obama - Psalm 109:8 "Let his days be few; and let another take his place of leadership.")
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