Skip to comments.FairTax Scores Big on POPVOX
Posted on 04/10/2011 8:04:24 AM PDT by phil_will1
One of the more intriguing new websites on the political blogoshere is POPVOX. POPVOX is an interactive site that enables individual citizens to weigh in on bills introduced into congress. You can vote for/against bills in the house or senate and you can also make a comment that will be displayed on the respective Bill Report page and forwarded to your respective representative/senator.
POPVOX also has a mapping facility which shows where support\opposition to a bill is coming from geographically. You can drill down to CD level all the way up to state and national.
HR 25 (The FairTax) made last week's POPVOX list of trending bills. As of the time of this writing, just under 1,500 votes had been cast for the bill on POPVOX, with 86% in support. Other FairTax related bills (S 13 and HJ Res 16) show even higher support percentages, albeit with much lower vote totals. HR 1040, by contrast, showed 74 votes being cast, 94% of which were in opposition. HR 1040 is the only flat tax bill in the house, where tax reform legislation is supposed to originate under our system of government.
If I know Rats Crats and RINOS we will end up with all of them in time.
Good to see the FairTax back on the minds of people
I think that Huckster’s liberalism and Criminal Rights activism nearly killed the FairTax idea....which is a good idea even though pushed by Huck
Most people oppose the FairTax out of ignorance....some because they know it kills government control of revenue collection and Globalist control of economy. The people that push Free Trade and Globalism hate a FairTax because it goes against their Income Tax agenda (The Income Tax came about by being pushed by the Internationists and Free Traders)
The income tax is just a way to control people. Look at all the loopholes and mechanisms people go thru to pay less taxes
NOOOOOO to Fair Tax.
Yes, to Flat Tax.
I get nothing but crap from the fair-taxers when I bring this up, but it is the real world, they need to deal with it and they still don't have an answer.
It's also getting a little crazy - asking for "opinions" on things where opinion isn't relevant.
Do you agree that the sky should be blue or should it be some other color?
Yes, blue is a perfect color for the sky: 47%
No, I think it's time for the sky to practice some diversity: 43%
Not sure: 10%
How reflective is POPVOX?
POPVOX appears to rely on people volunteering to voice their concerns. So I dont know about the general applicability.
People who are politically active or opinionated, especially conservatives will always weigh in on such issues as FairTax.
The bottomline is that a large swath of the public still needs to hear about the FairTax and what it is exactly and they must also be coached against the specious arguments of its detractors.
A good indicator of FairTax progress is the average number of daily signups to memberships in the AFFT, the grassroots org for the FairTax. Last I heard it was about 800 people per day, every day. But thats only about 300,000 people per year which is inadequate.
The good news is that new registrants to AFFT stick with it, once a FairTax supporter, always such; once one gets it, never can seriously consider any other alternative.
Another useful statistic for activists is that it takes about 3000 activists in a US Congressional District to turn the Rep to the FairTax.
Where POPVOX stands in all this I dont know
Econjack, I agree. I’ve tried to read as much as I can find on the Fair Tax. I am in support of the concept, but that ‘prebate’ silliness just smells like something that future congress critters will be likely to ‘tweak’ for their own aggrandizement.
I would much rather see a smaller applied rate, and dispense with this element of the plan.
Only other big concern is the protection needed for those of us approaching our sunset years and finding ourselves likely to be more dependent on SS than we otherwise have been planning. Not really sure what needs to be done, but we need some sort of protection, I think.
Thanks for introducing me to this.
This is more effective poll freeping than those liberal media polls.
Plus, these polls have a direct line to Congress.
“Yes, to Flat Tax.”
Which flat tax proposal do you support?
You can vote for HR 1040, which is the only flat tax bill in the house, here:
It isn’t doing too well, as you can see.
BTW, the Republican establishment LOVES the flat tax because it doesn’t really reform the corrupt system of trading earmarks and tax preferences for campaign cash, aided and abetted by an army of lavishly paid lobbyists.
The first criticism about a sales tax is that it is “regressive”—It takes a larger bite out of the “poor” than those of more means. The prebate makes the tax non-regressive. The feds use their definition of poverty income to establish who is “poor”. It is less than $29,000 for a family of four now.
Since NO ONE is required pay tax on spending below the poverty level income, everyone gets a monthly prebate for poverty level spending. I get one, you get one, Warren Buffet gets one, and Warren Buffet's secretary gets one. There is no income test to get a prebate. We do need to tell them who is getting the prebate and where to deposit the refund. Prebates, I believe, would go to only legal residents.
This makes an effective tax rate of zero percent for the “poor”, 11.5% for a $58,00 income, and so-on.
So the “prebate” is merely a refund of tax paid but not owed.
And yes, we would need to watch Congress and object if they try to mess with it. This is true for any legislation. At least an increased prebate for some people would be more visible than the buried tax loopholes in use now.
Flat tax keeps business taxes.
Flat tax keeps employee FICA taxes.
Flat tax keeps employer FICA “contribution”.
Flat tax keeps withholding.
NRST eliminates business taxes.
NRST eliminates employee FICA taxes.
NRST eliminates employer FICA “contribution”.
NRST eliminates withholding.
I bring up these items because they are subtle ways that are used to prevent the populace from knowing the true cost of government.
So what's your answer to people not paying income taxes? The answer to nrst non-compliance is the same.
See - no crap - just easy truth.
Any tax system will have non-compliance. Any. To minimize non-compliance make the system perceived as fair, easy to understand, and transparent.
Self-selected samples are full of those who feel strongly one way or the other. Obviously not representative samples.
I agree with you two that the prebate is a sticker.
My preference is by far to reduce the rate and eliminate the prebate - as I would presume the FRopulation would. IIRC it would cut about 3% off the rate.
As for those approaching retirement - I have more in tax deferred plans so I’ll do well. But those who have more in after tax savings will not. My suggestion has been to credit after tax savings in just the way they credit after tax inventory [the inventory credit was added due to public suggestion btw.]
In any case, the nrst is miles better than any income tax and I support the nrst with its warts.
I want us all to pay the exact same marginal rate. I want us all to feel the full, unhidden burden of government equally.
ok - that’s fine. I see it just like evading taxes on income. The mob does it. Criminals do it. Try to stop it if you can of course.
A true flat tax makes sense — but the “Flat Tax” nonsense by Newt and CATO and others, is not flat at all. It’s the opposite of flat. They call it flat, but it’s not flat whatsoever.
Get a real flat tax, and that would be good.
As to the Fairtax, it sounds great but is goofy. They have a massive “second tier” of taxation that they don’t mention in their books, videos, or speeches. And this second tier of taxation is silly, it’s a charade, a farce.
One thing about taxes — whatever name they give it, it’s usually exactly the opposite of the name.
“My thought is noncompliance will go up dramatically...”
I disagree and here’s why. It occurs to me that there are 3 “choke points” in the consumption economy that will be the revenue base of the FairTax.
1. Big box retailers - Here in GA, the big grocery store chains are Kroger’s and Publix. There are several more that are just below them in sales volume. Then you have the electronics superstores, Wal-Mart, Target, etc.
2. Auto dealers - while used cars are sometimes sold by individuals, news cars (the only ones taxed by the FairTax) are always sold through some type of dealer.
3. Real estate closing attorneys - New houses will still have to go through a formal closing process to change ownership.
I would hazard a guess that these three types of consumption account for 60 to 75% of the consumption economy. None of these three “choke points” will conspire to cheat on the sales tax. Why? Because the risk/reward ratio just does not make sense. It would be too easy to catch these guys. Can you imagine what would happen if one of the big-box retailers did not charge the sales tax to their customers? Or if the remittances to the state authority from one of those retailers stopped or went down significantly?
We could get a very high level of compliance with relatively few resources allocated to enforcement from that sector of the marketplace. We already know that there are enormous economies in compliance enforcement due to the fact that there are so many fewer points of collection/enforcement under the FairTax than under the current system - more than an 80% reduction in the number of filings. Then you have well over 50% of that greatly reduced number that will require very little oversight resources allocated to it.
On top of all that, you are talking about a greatly reduced and much, much simpler system to enforce. According to CCH, the current system (NOT just the IRC BTW) numbers in excess of 72,000 pages. The FairTax is less than 150 pages. Anyone who has been through a sales tax and an income tax audit will tell you that sales tax audits are trivial compared to income tax audits.
All in all, I think we can get a higher level of compliance with less resources allocated to enforcement under the FairTax than under the current system, or any modified form of income tax.
Of course, that is not good enough for some who raise this issue as a red herring. They insist on a perfect tax system where there will be zero problems with compliance. This is, of course, impractical and unreasonable and strongly suggests that they have some other agenda and that concerns over compliance are merely diversions to mask their vested interest in perpetuating a highly dysfunctional system that serves them personally even if it is hugely damaging to the economy of this nation.
“As to the Fairtax, it sounds great but is goofy. They have a massive ‘second tier’ of taxation.....”
Can you explain what you mean by a “second tier” of taxation?
“Online voting/polling is flawed IMHO unless there is a way to ensure one person/one vote. It’s also very hard to know if a person truly understands what they are voting for/against unless a series of questions is asked about the subject and replies are consistent”
The alternative is to employ Zogby, Rasmussen or someone like that to do scientific polling. No one is saying, for example, that the 86% support shown in this poll is representative of the public as a whole. It does suggest, however, that of those who feel strongly enough to vote one way or the other, the FairTax enjoys very strong support.
As far as the competence of the respondents, I agree that that is an issue. I particularly noted that the comments of those opposed show a lack of understanding of the proposal in many cases. I would say that at least half of the objections voiced in those opposing comments would go away if the respondents understood more about the proposal.
There are, of course, some misperceptions revealed among the supporting comments, also, but nowhere near as many.
We do not have flat tax.
But it is the most equitable. Fair Tax is beyond stupid and would hurt business...
Please explain yourself, with some real facts.
Thanks for the headzup, Phil.
This is a clever social networking site — I think we’ll be able to use it to great advantage.
I think you’re mixed up. It’s the income taxes that have multiple tiers of taxation. The formal definition of the flat income tax is “subtraction method VAT” in fact.
Flat tax has tax on my income [income and payroll] and taxes again when spent [via business taxes including income and payroll.] It is trivial to see more than one layer in even the generic flat tax situation. That second layer... it’s hidden in prices. That’s bad.
The nrst will help business.
The nrst will help businessNot if you're a (Fairtaxable) service business or even a retail business.
The 23% fairtax rate is a income tax on the business gross, not a sales tax on the consumer.
Tally up your gross taxable receipts (AKA gross income), remit 23% to the feds...
Not a business tax?...HA!
snicker... why do you want to keep the income tax lewislyn?
I haven’t done extensive analysis, but when I looked for a place on the 1040 form to enter income earned from extortion and smuggling, I didn’t find it. I also failed to find a way to deduct bribes and kickbacks for the under the radar business expense.
I called the IRS to inform them of their oversight, but they just seemed very confused and started asking pesky questions.
Having the true cost of government on every store receipt instead of hidden in the price of goods would just be horrible. The people might just notice that their taxes are just too damned high.
Flat tax retains the IRS. The Fair Tax eliminates the IRS.....That in itself cant be a really difficult decision to make.
You want to retain the IRS, and all tax reporting and headaches, have you lost your mind? The Fair Tax eliminates the IRS. Apply some logic to that.
Flat tax is still an income tax. Fair Tax is a tax on purchases. All the difference in the world.
It is every citizens duty to avoid paying as much tax as possible.
You are talking a gross receipts tax where the burden is on the business. Not so, the Fair Tax is a sales tax where the payment is on the consumer.
Avoiding tax is legal and should be done whenever possible. Evading tax is illegal.
If you're a RETAIL business then you remit 23% of gross receipts to the state sales tax authority and earn 1/4% of receipts for your trouble. Remember only retail is taxed - not business to business - only retail.
It's pretty easy to calculate 23% of gross - I think even you could do it lewis - lumber isn't retail so you wouldn't have to worry 'bout it. Even if you did, you would have no additional compliance costs and most likely less. No payroll dept or employee "contributions". And you'd earn 1/4% on remittance.
NOOOOOO to Fair Tax.
Yes, to Flat Tax.
I strongly agree!!!
The Fair Tax gets more revenue from the truly wealthy rather than high income earners who are still wage slaves as well as taxing the illegal alien underground economy and criminal income. All great goals IMHO.
The real issue is FReedom and Liberty.
In simple terms, whenever the government has first claim to a person’s earnings (as in an income tax), all other tax issues become irrelevant.
The truth is that, under any form of income taxation, you, as an individual, have lost your economic FReedom — you are a slave to the government.
The 16th Amendment to the US Constitution fundamentally altered the relationship of the American people to their government.
Prior to 16th, people were master, government was slave.
After 16th, government was master, people were slaves.
FairTax seeks to right this horrible wrong done to the American people in 1913.
Passing the FairTax will allow and encourage ALL AMERICANS to work, earn, save and invest. And by then taxing, not earnings, but retail sales, at one low, flat rate, the US government will re-establish FReedom and Liberty as an important guiding principle for governance in the 21st Century.
I posted the above rant yesterday on FR, sent this is an email to Boehner and sent to the Austin Unamerican Statesman editorial page. I seriously doubt if it get published and if it does, I will probably attacked by the radical leftists that inhabit Austin.
I’ve heard the income tax was on the top one half of one percent to pay for WWI.
Amen Taxman! AMEN!
The fact is that we will never again be a truly FREE people for so long as we continue to abide the communist inspired, class warfare inducing, income tax and the IRS!
“I've read both (popular) Fair Tax books and I still favor the flat tax a little. The reason is because of the “Prebate”. That little nick in the plan gives the politicians a way to buy votes from the poor since they appear to have the right to adjust it, which could mean no change from the current tax system, which sucks.”
You don’t know the half of what the fair tax will do unless you carefully study the actual text of the proposed legislation, H.R. 25, and its companion legislation H.J.RES 16 to repeal the 16th Amendment. The two books give a fairytale version of the proposal.
The truth about the alleged fair tax is, it is a proposed massive expansion of what Congress may tax, proposing to adopt a 23 percent tax upon the sale of new manufactured products and a 23 percent tax upon the sale of property which working people [Mary and Joe Sixpack] have in their labor, while keeping alive Congress’ power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits, gains, salaries and other incomes!
You might want to fire off an email to fairtax.org and ask them why, if they are really serious about withdrawing from Congress’ authority the power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits, gains and other incomes, why they refuse to add the following language to H.J. RES. 16, the fairtax companion legislation to repeal the 16th Amendment?
The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money
Without this language in the proposed repeal of the 16th Amendment, Congress maintains power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits, gains, and other incomes, e.g., the Corporate Excise Tax of 1909, upheld in Flint vs. Stone Tracy, and, a tax calculated from income laid during the war between the States and upheld in Springer vs. United States.
But don’t expect Mike Huckabee, Herman Cain, or fairtax.org to tell you Congress is intended to maintain the power to lay and collect taxes calculating from profits, gains and other income under the alleged fair tax. I have been trying to get the ringleaders behind the fairtax to disclose this to the American People for years without any success, and so, I post the information in as many forums as I can.
Something also interesting to note is fairtax.org’s founder, Leo E. Linbeck Jr, is/was part of the thieving money laundering operation called the federal reserve, which has been plundering our federal treasury for generations and keeping its operations secret, e.g. see: Federal Reserve Documents Reveal Massive Foreign Bank Bailouts
By Julie Borowski on Apr 04, 2011
Last week, the American people were finally informed on what the Federal Reserve has done with some of their money behind closed doors. It was revealed that one of the largest recipients of the Fed’s money was foreign banks during the 2008 economic downturn. We can’t say that we’re surprised. The Fed fought tooth and nail to keep these documents secret for a reason.
But getting back to the alleged fair tax, you are absolutely correct about the family consumption entitlement which would be created under the alleged fair tax, and would be our nation’s largest entitlement ever!
I believe the average annual earnings in America is about $50K. And the monthly family consumption entitlement check would be about $450. While the monthly entitlement check would mean a great deal to your average wage earner and those who earn less than $50K, and mean even more to those already on the public dole and not working, and, considering the above mentioned groups account for an overwhelming majority of voters, perhaps 80% of our nation’s population, that same check to a person earning about $150-200K would mean very little, and surely not enough to be bribed during federal elections.
But the wage earner with $50K a year and those earning far less, and surely those already on the public dole would more than likely gravitate to our progressive gang on Capitol Hill during federal elections who would promise to increase the family consumption allowance to bribe these voters, just as they have with social security over the years. And the sad truth is, our progressive gang on Capitol Hill already has their speech ready to increase the family consumption entitlement in order to buy votes during federal elections.
How dare those who have imposed the fair tax on our nation’s poor, now refuse to increase the family consumption allowance to relieve the oppressive nature of a tax which taxes the food a mother buys to feed her child, taxes the clothing she purchases to cloth that child, taxes the fuel used to heat that child’s room during winter, taxes the medicine a mother needs to care for a sickly child, and then taxes the coffin used to bury her child because she could not afford the taxes imposed upon every imaginable necessity of life!
Were we not warned by our founding fathers that A POWER OVER A MAN's SUBSISTENCE [the fairtax family consumption entitlement] AMOUNTS TO A POWER OVER HIS WILL ?____ Hamilton, No. 79 Federalist Papers
But make no mistake, I do not agree with you on a flat income tax. I do not want to keep alive the Marxist income tax. What I support is going back to our Constitution’s original tax plan which I outlined in Donald Trump and his possible run for the presidency, taxes and trade.
You are greatly mistaken if you think the fair tax seeks to right the wrong of the 16th Amendment with respect to working people and their property.
The truth is, Mary and Joe Sixpack, under the alleged fair tax, are enslaved just as they now are, because the proposed tax would tax the sale of the property which Mary and Joe have in their labor.
Now let us examine how this tax upon “property” would affect Mary and Joe Sixpack, ordinary working people. Mary and Joe have two children and find it necessary to earn extra money to pay their bills. Mary baby sits for neighbors in the community and cleans homes on weekends to raise extra money while Joe, who works for a plumbing company as a full-time job, also provides the same plumbing service on his own time to people living in his community to raise extra cash.
Under the alleged fair tax Mary and Joe Sixpack’s inalienable right to sell the property they have in their labor becomes a taxable event, and, they must first register with government to sell the property they have in their labor, collect a federal tax for Congress, file federal sales tax returns 12 freaken times a year under the penalty of perjury, and they will be compelled to keep any records Congress may dream up, not to mention the threat of audits which will constantly haunt them if they dare to sell the property they have in their labor.
Funny thing is, our founding fathers, during the Constitutional Convention of 1787, were fully aware of the oppressive nation of taxes imposed upon property and this is the very reason for our founding fathers demanding in our Constitution that No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.
Bottom line is, the alleged fairtax is a proposed massive expansion of what Congress may tax while keeping alive Congress’ power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits, gains, salaries and other incomes.