Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Hoo Boy, Wisconsinís Going to Get Uglier
NRO ^ | April 11, 2011 | by Daniel Foster

Posted on 04/11/2011 12:55:37 PM PDT by library user

I heard Ramona Kitzinger, the Democratic observer at the Waukesha County canvass, say on Friday that the numbers announced by county clerk Kathy Nickolaus at the end of the canvass “jibed.” Now, by all appearances, she’s lawyered-up, and released a statement largely recanting her Friday comments and sowing doubt about what Nickolaus may or may not have done with the 15,000 missing votes. The whole thing is worth a read, but this is my favorite part:

“. . . with the enormous amount of attention this has received over the weekend, many people are offering my statements at the press conference that the “numbers jibed” as validation they are correct and I can vouch for their accuracy. As I told Kathy when I was called into the room, I am 80 years old and I don’t understand anything about computers. I don’t know where the numbers Kathy was showing me ultimately came from, but they seemed to add up. I am still very, very confused. . . “

The thing people need to understand about this is that there is — if Nickolaus is telling the truth — a clear chain of custody of the vote numbers in question. The unofficial database sent by Nickolaus to the state the night of the election either has Brookfield votes or it doesn’t. More crucially, Brookfield either sent their vote totals to Nickolaus or they didn’t. If they did, there should be an electronic paper trail and the numbers that came out of Brookfield city hall should match the numbers Nickolaus reported after the canvass. If you still think this was fraud, you’re implicating not just Nickolaus but the city of Brookfield itself.

The other thing to remember is that the discrepancy, as I understand it, is between official and unofficial numbers. The unofficial numbers were wrong. The official ones were right. The unofficial numbers were unofficial precisely because they were electronically transferred from municipalities to the counties and eventually to the state, in large part so that outfits like the Associated Press could call the election on Tuesday night. The official numbers were official precisely because they depended on a thorough examination — observed by Republicans and Democrats — of the actual voting tapes.


TOPICS: Editorial; News/Current Events; US: Wisconsin
KEYWORDS: kathynickolaus; ramonakitzinger; waukesha; wisconsinshowdown
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-69 next last

1 posted on 04/11/2011 12:55:44 PM PDT by library user
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: library user
The unofficial numbers were wrong. The official ones were right.

I remember democrats screaming fraud because exit polls showed Kerry winning.
2 posted on 04/11/2011 12:59:05 PM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: library user

It’s the ‘official’ part the socialist-communist-progressive-liberal-democramps don’t like................


3 posted on 04/11/2011 1:00:52 PM PDT by Red Badger (I've posted a total of 1,723 threads and 64,113 replies, as of 04-06-2011)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Red Badger

Anything on the news conference they were to hold at 2 PM today?


4 posted on 04/11/2011 1:02:03 PM PDT by bunster
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: library user

The older I get the more I realize that there are a lot of stupid Americans.


5 posted on 04/11/2011 1:02:05 PM PDT by jwalsh07
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: library user
She sure didn't look confused at that press conference..

She said something like, I'm the democrat chair of the county, if there was something wrong I would say so. Not exact quote mind you.

Don't buy it at all --- seems like someone got to her to "encourage" her to change her story.

6 posted on 04/11/2011 1:02:27 PM PDT by coder2
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: bunster
That was on a 2010 election finding where illegal contributions were made (to both sides).
7 posted on 04/11/2011 1:03:47 PM PDT by coder2
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: library user
The unofficial numbers were unofficial precisely because they were electronically transferred from municipalities to the counties and eventually to the state, in large part so that outfits like the Associated Press could call the election on Tuesday night let the RATs know how many votes they'd have to "find" to win.
8 posted on 04/11/2011 1:04:19 PM PDT by JimRed (Excising a cancer before it kills us waters the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS, NOW AND FOREVER!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: library user
I heard Ramona Kitzinger, the Democratic observer at the Waukesha County canvass, say on Friday that the numbers announced by county clerk Kathy Nickolaus at the end of the canvass “jibed.” Now, by all appearances, she’s lawyered-up, and released a statement largely recanting her Friday comments and sowing doubt about what Nickolaus may or may not have done with the 15,000 missing votes.

Who cares what Romona thinks about anything? She is simply an observer. Not an official. She's lawyered up? Why? I don't see how her testimony means squat considering there is a paper trail to the votes.

9 posted on 04/11/2011 1:05:17 PM PDT by Lazlo in PA (Now living in a newly minted Red State.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: library user
This is a non-story - even the Huffington Post reported the correct numbers that night

http://biggovernment.com/mtrackers/2011/04/11/no-conspiracy-in-wisconsin-supreme-court-election-brookfield-vote-totals-posted-on-election-night-by-aolhuffington-post-reporter/#more-253996

And they were the same returns the city is reporting now that Waukesha County Clerk Kathy Nickolaus has finally added Brookfield into the countywide returns. That means there’s no big conspiracy – Nickolaus just didn’t pass the returns on to the state and Associated Press on election night as she should have done. No returns or votes “materialized” – they were reported on election night by a site overseen by one of the most prominent liberals in the country.

10 posted on 04/11/2011 1:05:59 PM PDT by porter_knorr (http://tinyurl.com/relief4japan Help for Japan!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: bunster

I dunno, but it probably went about like this..............

11 posted on 04/11/2011 1:06:03 PM PDT by Red Badger (I've posted a total of 1,723 threads and 64,113 replies, as of 04-06-2011)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: library user

Sounds like Ramona just got a hefty off-shore retirement account set up for her.


12 posted on 04/11/2011 1:06:26 PM PDT by ilgipper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: coder2

again I will GO ON RECORD saying “THIS election will ALSO be stolen from right under our NOSES!” The FIX IS IN...bank on it...it’s a DONE DEAL! BUT, I’d gladly to EAT CROW with Hot Sauce if I’m wrong!


13 posted on 04/11/2011 1:06:40 PM PDT by RoseofTexas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: library user

Good heavens, she’s lawyered UP?? Has Nickolous retained an attorney? The first read of this “statement” caused me to think an 80 year old lady had help in writing it.

The entire thing should be easily verifiable, it seems to me. Having somebody who understands computer software might help.


14 posted on 04/11/2011 1:07:20 PM PDT by prairiebreeze ("We need to be in it to win it, and if there's doubt we need to get out". -- Palin on Libya.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: library user

Kathy Nickolaus is a great American. If she did what I think she did...report 1,500 and hold back the 15,000, then she is a genius. Prosser was ahead by 742 votes, and the Dems did exactly what they did in Franken, Gregoire, et al: found just enough votes to miraculously put them up by 2-300 “votes”. By holding back, Nickolaus forced the Dems to shoot their cheating wad, and then put it far out of reach. FINALLY the GOP learns (again, if my belief-and hope-is correct).


15 posted on 04/11/2011 1:07:56 PM PDT by montag813 (http://www.facebook.com/StandWithArizona)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: library user
It's my understanding that these are actual proven votes. They just were not properly sent in for the official counting.

Can anyone who lives there update this story?

16 posted on 04/11/2011 1:08:22 PM PDT by LADY J ( Change your thoughts and you change your world.. - Norman Vincent Peale))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: library user
But I thought the whole thing was to be decided on a coin toss? At least that's what a $125,000 per year polisci professor declared at the UW system in Madison as published in the Journal Sentinel editorial section.

The prestige of the UW isn't much more credible than a coin toss, so I can see the line of reasoning.

17 posted on 04/11/2011 1:09:46 PM PDT by blackdog (The mystery of government is not how Washington works but how to make it stop)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: cripplecreek

Juan the crash dummy insisted that the actual presidential votes were wrong and the exit polls were correct.


18 posted on 04/11/2011 1:11:34 PM PDT by Carley (UNION AGITATORS, NO DIFFERENT THAN THE ARAB STREET. UGLY AND VIOLENT)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: library user
This kinda stuff keeps up and we are going to half to change our flag.


19 posted on 04/11/2011 1:11:55 PM PDT by McGruff (There is no such a thing as bad publicity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: bunster

Had to do with some business owner repaying employees for political contributions. Most to Walker. although once he found out he retuened the $$


20 posted on 04/11/2011 1:12:44 PM PDT by UB355 (Slower traffic keep right)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: library user
“I went over everything and made sure that all the numbers jived up, and they did.”

“I’m the Democratic vice chair of Waukesha County, so I’m not going to stand here and tell you something that’s not true,” Kitzinger said.

Now: "I'm old and of feeble mind and I'm confused."

Well here's a new wrinkle in the Democrat's well-worn "nuts and sluts" strategy... agreeing to call yourself NUTS!!

21 posted on 04/11/2011 1:13:13 PM PDT by Obadiah (I don't mind Obama's vacations. It's his coming back that bothers me.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: library user

Get rid of electronic ballots.

They are a magnet for mischief, lawsuits, fraud. They will generate an endless series of contested elections.

Get rid of them.


22 posted on 04/11/2011 1:16:16 PM PDT by Steely Tom (Obama goes on long after the thrill of Obama is gone)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: montag813
When you pull a Franken, Reid, it's the old fooled once-twice-three times lesson learned. Vote counts and reports are going to become like a game of Texas Hold'em from here going forward.

IMHO, end all election return reporting, period! The certified totals should be sealed in each voting district by law, and then opened one at a time starting from A and ending at Z, only after all official vote counts arrive at one central location. That includes all absentee ballots. Any found after that shall be null and void.

23 posted on 04/11/2011 1:17:55 PM PDT by blackdog (The mystery of government is not how Washington works but how to make it stop)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: cripplecreek

Many years ago I took a temp gig in Chicago to report numbers to the NES from the Medinah Temple building in downtown Chicago.

My job was to record phoned in vote numbers on paper and run them over to the keypunch operators. I was focusing on the 1982 gov. race between Stevenson and Thompson.

While I am sure that computer networks etc. speed some things up, the fact is that someone is going to have to say, write or type in numbers before they get combined and reported, as the AP does not (yet) have an ethernet cable plugged into the voting machines.

For my $4 an hour, I could have easily made mischief if I wanted, as the damage would be done while they tried to figure it out (unless they had controls ... there were well over a hundred people in that room). Nearly every precinct has several machines, every town has numerous precincts, every county has numerous towns, and large mid-western states have dozens of counties.

It is inane to expect 100% accuracy from such a process. It would be catastrophe to centralize voting in order to achieve that type of unofficial accuracy.

As it turned out, I thought I would be the first guy to know who won. In fact, I was among the last. When one is constantly recording numbers at such a small level from all over the state (I was getting mostly Chicago suburbs), you really can’t get a sense of who’s winning because the numbers are all over the place (unless it’s a blow out). Thompson won, but it was closer than this race (1/7 of 1%), NO ONE was talking about the results and I didn’t even know how close it was until I got back to my dorm.


24 posted on 04/11/2011 1:19:09 PM PDT by Dr. Sivana (There is no salvation in politics.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: library user

To this point all I’ve heard is that the wrong numbers were sent to AP. I’ve not heard anything wrong was transmitted to the state. Even so, that’s why they’re called ‘unofficial’.

I’m getting tired of the implication that somehow Nickolaus manufactured votes and there is a questionable chain of custody. There was a perfect chain of custody from casting to tabulation, the only error was transmission of the results to the AP, an unofficial body.

The libs can smear and obfuscate all they want, there are no manufactured votes here. For their argument to hold true that would mean that Brookfield had zero votes, an impossibility. The Dems are trying to disenfranchise these votes on false claims of fraud.


25 posted on 04/11/2011 1:20:29 PM PDT by Free Vulcan (Vote Republican! You can vote Democrat when you're dead.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RoseofTexas

I will be surprised if you are not right. I think there will be many ballots yet to be found, and will be able to get them included based on this perception of improper action that the dems have now created in WI.


26 posted on 04/11/2011 1:21:25 PM PDT by NEMDF
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: blackdog

“The prestige of the UW isn’t much more credible than a coin toss, so I can see the line of reasoning.”

Umm, if you’re calling a coin toss heads you’ll get it right 50% of the time. Do you really feel UW is more credible than that?


27 posted on 04/11/2011 1:21:25 PM PDT by saganite (What happens to taglines? Is there a termination date?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: library user
While everyone is busy looking at Waukesha County, no one is watching the other counties that haven't reported their vote counts yet:

From the GAB (Government Accountability Board) website:

Crawford, Milwaukee, Oneida and Sauk counties are still being worked on, and will be posted as soon as possible. Milwaukee County will likely not be posted until Wednesday at the earliest.
Milwaukee is the county to watch!
28 posted on 04/11/2011 1:23:11 PM PDT by jellybean (Bookmark http://altfreerepublic.freeforums.org/index.php for when FR is down)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Free Vulcan
Good . Let the leeches spend millions on this challenge . These fools are second raters . First , Tiny Tim Pawlenty or Little Mitch are not the Governors here . Second . the thugs have shown themselves to be second raters. There is no way they come up with enough votes to overturn . The Pubs played it right , let the hag claim the win with 204 votes then drop the stink bomb .
29 posted on 04/11/2011 1:28:46 PM PDT by fantom (,)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: jellybean

They haven’t reported their vote counts yet??!!


30 posted on 04/11/2011 1:31:16 PM PDT by Fu-fu2
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: saganite
Umm, if you’re calling a coin toss heads you’ll get it right 50% of the time. Do you really feel UW is more credible than that?

Are you familiar with the rule of 50-50-90?

31 posted on 04/11/2011 1:31:31 PM PDT by Colonel_Flagg ("It's hard to take the president seriously." - Jim DeMint)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: RoseofTexas
again I will GO ON RECORD saying “THIS election will ALSO be stolen from right under our NOSES!” The FIX IS IN...bank on it...it’s a DONE DEAL! BUT, I’d gladly to EAT CROW with Hot Sauce if I’m wrong!

If you are right, then there needs to be a war. No more civility. If the elections are meaningless, then the laws are meaningless.

32 posted on 04/11/2011 1:33:19 PM PDT by Repeal 16-17 (Let me know when the Shooting starts.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: saganite

Good point I suppose. Good thing they have not produced retail pregnancy tests there. The upside is that they sell for six dollars but only cost a quarter to produce.


33 posted on 04/11/2011 1:33:21 PM PDT by blackdog (The mystery of government is not how Washington works but how to make it stop)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: montag813
If she did what I think she did...report 1,500 and hold back the 15,000, then she is a genius. Prosser was ahead by 742 votes, and the Dems did exactly what they did in Franken, Gregoire, et al: found just enough votes to miraculously put them up by 2-300 “votes”. By holding back, Nickolaus forced the Dems to shoot their cheating wad, and then put it far out of reach.

I hope this is what she did. I'd like to think the GOP is getting smarter about these things.

34 posted on 04/11/2011 1:33:45 PM PDT by Lakeshark (Thank a member of the US armed forces for their sacrifice)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: jwalsh07

Beginning with that howler: “there should be an electronic paper trail.” sd


35 posted on 04/11/2011 1:36:58 PM PDT by shotdog (I love my country. It's our government I'm afraid of.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: library user

And by the way - didn’t the AP read the totals for Prosser wrong - they read a 9 as a 7, so that even before the Brookfield totals came in, Prosser had actually retaken the lead.

Kloppencommie must feel like a idiot running in front of the microphones, waving her arms and claiming victory based on an “unofficial” vote tally given to a wire service.

And, as someone pointed out, the whole purpose of the canvassing is to insure that all totals and votes are reported. As a Freeper said upthread - they were all set with the 200 vote margin and they figured they’d be able to jimmy up the 20 votes here or there needed should the recount/canvas show Prosser starting to lead.

8,000 votes - well, that’s going to be a little hard. Also, were there not reports of ballots being shredded after being counted in a precinct heavily for Prosser? Is there an update anywhere?


36 posted on 04/11/2011 1:39:29 PM PDT by Right Cal Gal (Ronald Reagan: "our liberal friends....know so much that isn't so...")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: library user
The official numbers were official precisely because they depended on a thorough examination — observed by Republicans and Democrats ...

So, 5 minutes after all the precincts were "in", kloppendanger was publicly declaring herself the winner and pushing Prosser to concede while knowing behind the scenes that Prosser was actually the winner. She was trying to pressure or trick the winning candidate to concede.

37 posted on 04/11/2011 1:40:45 PM PDT by C210N (0bama, Making the US safe for Global Marxism)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Obadiah

Maybe she lied to her diary, too. Democrats are known to do that.


38 posted on 04/11/2011 1:44:12 PM PDT by Defiant (When Democrats lose voters, they manufacture new voters instead of convincing the existing voters.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Fu-fu2
They haven’t reported their vote counts yet??!!

No!

Although, since my last post, I see Oneida County has now reported. Prosser won that county by just under 400 votes. Which I don't think changed much since election night. I don't know what's taking so long with Crawford and Sauk counties. They're not that big.

39 posted on 04/11/2011 1:44:26 PM PDT by jellybean (Bookmark http://altfreerepublic.freeforums.org/index.php for when FR is down)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Right Cal Gal
Kloppencommie must feel like a idiot running in front of the microphones, waving her arms and claiming victory based on an “unofficial” vote tally given to a wire service.

She was doing exactly what her handlers told her to do. ALWAYS declare victory as soon as possible. Then, if anything changes YOU are the victim. The election is being stolen from YOU, no matter what happens after you have declared victory. This is Election Stealing 101, and reference can readily be found in 'The Handbook of Election Stealing for Democrat Dummies', Chapter 8, pg. 214, (second paragraph from the bottom).

It's basic stuff. I really wish the Republicans would learn it.

40 posted on 04/11/2011 1:48:28 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: jellybean
I don't know what's taking so long with Crawford and Sauk counties. They're not that big.

Maybe they are currently in the process of becoming 8,000 votes bigger.

41 posted on 04/11/2011 1:51:35 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: bunster
The news conference today had nothing to do with this election although the lead up on the news all day implied it did.

Railroad executive charged with campaign law violations

42 posted on 04/11/2011 1:51:45 PM PDT by Jean S
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Steely Tom
Get rid of electronic ballots. They are a magnet for mischief, lawsuits, fraud.

They were supposed to be the fix for the fraud generated by paper ballots, e.g., Bush v. Gore 2000.

43 posted on 04/11/2011 1:52:21 PM PDT by Tonytitan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: library user

“I am 80 years old and I don’t understand anything about computers.”

Say what? And nobody knew this about her before the election?? Why in God’s name would anyone allow her that much responsibility if she is that unsure of herself??

Classic lesson that an ounce of prevention really is worth a couple of tons of cure.


44 posted on 04/11/2011 1:59:12 PM PDT by Bean Counter (Stout Hearts!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Lazlo in PA
There is a paper trail or an e-trail, as it may be. I repeat there is a paper trail vindicating Kathy Nickolaus and exposing Ramona “I can't lie because I am a democrat” Kitzinger to “I have been intimidated to lie because I am a democrat”...or else....She may be eighty years old, but the leftists don't care. She is fair game for intimidation and ugly threats. These people are desperate....and poor elderly Romona will continue to believe the Dems are her friends. What is wrong with these people?
45 posted on 04/11/2011 2:05:39 PM PDT by madinmadtown (Marx, the patron saint of blame, envy and destruction.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Lancey Howard
Maybe they are currently in the process of becoming 8,000 votes bigger.

Could be!

According to the Sauk County website:

Cards Cast 15667
Num. Report Precinct 55 - Num.
Reporting 55 100.00%

Supreme Court
Number of Precincts	55	 
Precincts Reporting	55	100.0 %

David T. Prosser, Jr	7170	43.76%
Joanne F.Kloppenburg	9188	56.08%
Write-in Votes	26	0.16%
If my math is correct, that means there were 16,384 voters in the Supreme Court race. So, 717 more votes that cards cast?

46 posted on 04/11/2011 2:16:07 PM PDT by jellybean (Bookmark http://altfreerepublic.freeforums.org/index.php for when FR is down)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Obadiah
Now: "I'm old and of feeble mind and I'm confused Democratic."
47 posted on 04/11/2011 2:33:56 PM PDT by Mike Darancette (The heresy of heresies was common sense - Orwell)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: library user
Oh, c'mon, a leftist-leaning HuffPo-associated Wisconsin blogger reported identical numbers from an in-hand release before the mistake was discovered.
48 posted on 04/11/2011 3:34:20 PM PDT by StAnDeliver ("Are you better off than you were four years ago...")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: library user

"But at the news conference with Nickolaus, Ramona Kitzinger, the Democrat on the Waukesha County Board of Canvassers, said: "We went over everything and made sure all the numbers jibed up and they did. Those numbers jibed up, and we're satisfied they're correct."

As a Democrat, she said, "I'm not going to stand here and tell you something that's not true." --Wisconsin State-Journal


49 posted on 04/11/2011 3:35:43 PM PDT by StAnDeliver ("Are you better off than you were four years ago...")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Bean Counter
Say what? And nobody knew this about her before the election??

She did not need to know anything about computers. The board of canvassers just looks at the numbers and adds them up. The law says that there has to be a Democrat and a Republican represented on the Board of canvassers. In Waukesha County, they probably had a hard time finding a Dem! ;^)

50 posted on 04/11/2011 3:45:02 PM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-69 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson