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Constitutional Refuseniks(Oathkeepers)
reason.com ^ | May, 2011 | Radley Balko

Posted on 04/12/2011 6:46:23 AM PDT by marktwain

When you run down the list of issues the Oath Keepers are worried about, it reads a lot like a bill of particulars from the American Civil Liberties Union. The Oath Keepers don't like warrantless searches. They're upset that the executive branch has claimed the power to classify American citizens as enemy combatants, detain them indefinitely, and try them before military tribunals. They worry that a large-scale terrorist attack similar to 9/11 could lead to the mass detention of Arabs or Muslims, just as Japanese Americans were detained during World War II. They worry about crackdowns on political speech, protest, and freedom of assembly. They are concerned about the Army 3rd Infantry's 1st Brigade Combat Team, a military unit that is training to deploy domestically in response to terrorist attacks or other national emergencies. And yet the group is a frequent target of the left.

Oath Keepers was founded in 2009 by Stewart Rhodes, a Yale Law School graduate and a former staffer for Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas). Rhodes, 44, considers himself a constitutionalist and a libertarian. His organization's mission: to persuade America's soldiers and cops to refuse to carry out orders that violate the Constitution. On its website, Oath Keepers lists 10 orders its members will always refuse, including commands to conduct warrantless searches, to disarm the public, blockade an American city, or do anything that infringes "on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances." According to Rhodes, the group has about 30,000 dues-paying members.

(Excerpt) Read more at reason.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: arms; banglist; constitution; oathkeepers; rhodes; stewartrhodes
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"Now I think civilian authority is important, but if the president asks the military to do something that isn't constitutional, their loyalty is to the Constitution, not the president."

Quote from the interview.

1 posted on 04/12/2011 6:46:26 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain
"Now I think civilian authority is important, but if the president asks the military to do something that isn't constitutional, their loyalty is to the Constitution, not the president."

Ridiculous.

2 posted on 04/12/2011 6:52:56 AM PDT by Huck (Will we still be using U6 when the pubbies are back in charge?)
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To: Huck

I hope you are being sarcastic.


3 posted on 04/12/2011 7:01:07 AM PDT by TalonDJ
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To: TalonDJ

Not at all.


4 posted on 04/12/2011 7:05:43 AM PDT by Huck (Will we still be using U6 when the pubbies are back in charge?)
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To: Huck

So, the military should be loyal to the person who is in the office of president, regardless of what is ordered by this person?


5 posted on 04/12/2011 7:07:17 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter knows whom he's working for)
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To: marktwain
When you run down the list of issues the Oath Keepers are worried about, it reads a lot like a bill of particulars from the American Civil Liberties Union.

All well and good, except for the difference that the Oathkeepers wasn't founded by an avowed Marxist, and the ACLU was.

6 posted on 04/12/2011 7:08:14 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter knows whom he's working for)
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To: MrB

Legally speaking, we don’t all individually get to decide what is constitutional and what isn’t. A soldier can refuse too fight, but then they have to face the justice system—the military justice system at that.


7 posted on 04/12/2011 7:26:59 AM PDT by Huck (Will we still be using U6 when the pubbies are back in charge?)
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To: Huck
Boy, are you off track. The Oath says nothing about the President (unless he falls under the category of domestic enemy):

I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.


See that? "Constitution", not "President".
8 posted on 04/12/2011 7:30:33 AM PDT by Paine in the Neck (Napolean fries the idea powder.)
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To: Paine in the Neck

You’re clueless.


9 posted on 04/12/2011 7:33:41 AM PDT by Huck (Will we still be using U6 when the pubbies are back in charge?)
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To: Huck

You’ve thrown insults at three posters so far and have yet to explain yourself. Do you even have an argument on your side? I ask because what you seem to support is the Nuremburg Defense, i.e., “I was just following orders”?


10 posted on 04/12/2011 7:37:51 AM PDT by Paine in the Neck (Napolean fries the idea powder.)
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To: Huck

I would disagree. The oath (and honor) are with respect to the Constituion. That said, any member of the millitary refusing to obey an order shold be ready for the system to do what the system will do. Otherwise, there would be no provision in the UCMJ for the term “illegal order”.


11 posted on 04/12/2011 7:40:59 AM PDT by Pecos (Liberty and Honor will not die on my watch.)
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To: Pecos
That said, any member of the millitary refusing to obey an order shold be ready for the system to do what the system will do.

Exactly. Therefore, what an individual thinks is constitutional is irrelevant. It's what the system says is constitutional that counts.

12 posted on 04/12/2011 7:52:57 AM PDT by Huck (Will we still be using U6 when the pubbies are back in charge?)
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To: Paine in the Neck

Post 7


13 posted on 04/12/2011 7:53:39 AM PDT by Huck (Will we still be using U6 when the pubbies are back in charge?)
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To: Huck

***That said, any member of the millitary refusing to obey an order shold be ready for the system to do what the system will do.

Exactly. Therefore, what an individual thinks is constitutional is irrelevant. It’s what the system says is constitutional that counts.***

The right and duty of the individual to refuse an unconstitutional order is a uniquely American concept. Note that the officers of the Tird Reich did not have that as part of their oaths.

Ours does, for a reason.

As to your argument about the constitution is what the system says it is, have you considered the rather large number of cases where an individual filed a case which changed “the system”

Such cases are the real “Yes, we can”.


14 posted on 04/12/2011 8:18:17 AM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is essential to examine principles,)
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To: Huck
We're not talking about "refusing to fight", we are talking about the very specific list of circumstances identified by the Oathkeepers as Consitutional no-go territory. You're still taking random potshots and not addressing the issues.

Here's the Oathkeepers' Oath:

  1. We will NOT obey orders to disarm the American people.
  2. We will NOT obey orders to conduct warrantless searches of the American people.
  3. We will NOT obey orders to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to military tribunal.
  4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state.
  5. We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty.
  6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.
  7. We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.
  8. We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control."
  9. We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies.
  10. We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.

I take it that your reply at 7. is that you would do all of these things because, otherwise, you'd 'get into trouble'.

15 posted on 04/12/2011 8:23:44 AM PDT by Paine in the Neck (Napolean fries the idea powder.)
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To: Paine in the Neck

Many of the items on that oath are unconstitutional.


16 posted on 04/12/2011 8:27:43 AM PDT by Huck (Will we still be using U6 when the pubbies are back in charge?)
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To: GladesGuru

So name me a case where a soldier refused an order on the grounds that it was unconstitutional, and won the case in court.


17 posted on 04/12/2011 8:29:50 AM PDT by Huck (Will we still be using U6 when the pubbies are back in charge?)
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To: marktwain
Worthless group. Mostly a PC social network for conservative groupies and cheerleaders.

Hoping to attract the folks who were supposed to constitute their core membership - AD military and LEOs, who placed their treasured pensions and security clearances above their allegiance to a free country - OK shut down all talk of militias or anything even remotely resembling active resistance to tyranny.

Mamby-pamby feel-good land, IMO. Irrelevant now, and irrelevant when the time comes.

18 posted on 04/12/2011 8:31:13 AM PDT by dagogo redux (A whiff of primitive spirits in the air, harbingers of an impending descent into the feral.)
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To: Huck
Therefore, what an individual thinks is constitutional is irrelevant. It's what the system says is constitutional that counts.

And that right there is what's wrong with American government right now. That's how we got Wickard v Filburn, Roe v Wade, Bowers v Harwick, and Kelo v City of New London. All bad law, all obviously unconstitutional, but all forced on us by the judiciary. It is very much incumbent on all three branches, and the American people, to decide what's Constitutional.

19 posted on 04/12/2011 8:36:59 AM PDT by backwoods-engineer (Any politician who holds that the state accords rights is an oathbreaker and an "enemy... domestic.")
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To: dagogo redux
Worthless group. Mostly a PC social network for conservative groupies and cheerleaders.

'Conservative groupies'? You do realize you're on a conservative forum, right? You realize that statement insults almost everyone on FR, right?

I have read and listened to Steward Rhodes a lot. I saw what happened in New Orleans during Katrina-- people were disarmed in violation of the Constitution. Oathkeepers does a lot of good.

I smell troll. And maybe ozone.

20 posted on 04/12/2011 8:40:45 AM PDT by backwoods-engineer (Any politician who holds that the state accords rights is an oathbreaker and an "enemy... domestic.")
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