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Army Move on Atheist Chaplains Could Lead To ‘Church of Evolution’
NY Sun ^ | April 28, 2011 | SHMULEY BOTEACH

Posted on 05/01/2011 3:23:08 PM PDT by neverdem

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To: Christian Engineer Mass; All

You say it is a religion and so CANNOT be supported by the govt., but, what is paying chaplains for our servicemen if not a support by the govt? Thus, nonbelievers should have the same rights for emotional and moral support in war as believers already have. In fact without the comfort of a fully believed in hereafter, it is reasonable to think they might need aid, comfort and counseling even more than believers.


51 posted on 05/01/2011 10:36:23 PM PDT by gleeaikin
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To: reefdiver; All

Pat Tillman was an atheists. Some members of his family and others believe that the “friendly fire” that killed him was deliberate murder by angry Christian/s.


52 posted on 05/01/2011 10:39:42 PM PDT by gleeaikin
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To: reefdiver
Very few donks in the armed services and even less atheist.

As a combat vet, I can 10000000000% guarantee you that when bullets start flying, everyone has religion. How many, "oh God's . . . ." do you think you will hear? You will not hear: "Oh great Nobody, save me!!!" You will remember in the Bible that it teaches that one of the pagan cults had a statute to the: unknown god. That was to cover their rear ends in the event there was a god out there that the did not have a statute to yet and did not want to offend him. Never saw anyone run to that statute in a firefight. It was always: "Oh GOD, help me!" And they were not saying, "Oh Allah help me."

53 posted on 05/01/2011 10:43:42 PM PDT by RetiredArmy (Read: Ecclesiastes 10:2. The Bible tells you RIGHT is right and left is wrong.)
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To: Neoliberalnot


54 posted on 05/01/2011 11:05:42 PM PDT by LomanBill (Animals! The DemocRats blew up the windmill with an Acorn!)
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To: neverdem; Charles Henrickson; MeekOneGOP; Conspiracy Guy; DocRock; King Prout; Darksheare; OSHA; ...
I asked if there was an agnostic chaplin. They said "Nobody knows."


55 posted on 05/02/2011 12:06:07 AM PDT by Slings and Arrows (You can't have Ingsoc without an Emmanuel Goldstein.)
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To: Slings and Arrows

“They said “Nobody knows.”

LOL! You’re too funny!

Don’t they know that they will never meet an atheist in a foxhole?


56 posted on 05/02/2011 12:30:14 AM PDT by dixiechick2000 (Age, skill, wisdom, and a little treachery always overcome youth and arrogance!)
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To: dixiechick2000

I’ve always wondered what atheists shout during sex.


57 posted on 05/02/2011 1:45:33 AM PDT by Slings and Arrows (You can't have Ingsoc without an Emmanuel Goldstein.)
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To: Crim

> Army Move on Atheist Chaplains Could Lead To ‘Church of Evolution’

At least they’ll be finally making it official.

Now can we get the government to stop supporting it?

Or, better yet, can we give Creator God equal time?


58 posted on 05/02/2011 3:08:44 AM PDT by Westbrook (Having children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: Slings and Arrows

Oh nothing! Oh nothing! Oooooooohhhhhh nnnoooothing!


59 posted on 05/02/2011 4:09:26 AM PDT by TheOldLady
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To: Aroostook25

there are tax exemptions on a lot of charity-related property


60 posted on 05/02/2011 4:27:24 AM PDT by Christian Engineer Mass (25ish Cambridge MA grad student. Many conservative Christians my age out there? __ Click my name)
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To: davisfh; Drumbo

>>> I can just hear the atheist prayer now. “Dear Heavenly nobody, thank you for nothing.”

Ahahahahahahahaha! Wait, shouldn’t “nobody” be capitalised, out of respect?


61 posted on 05/02/2011 6:26:04 AM PDT by Titan Magroyne (What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.)
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To: Slings and Arrows

>>> I’ve always wondered what atheists shout during sex.

“Oh me, oh Me, oohhhhhhhhhMMMMEEEEEE!”
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Sorry, dunno what happens if a partner is involved.


62 posted on 05/02/2011 6:43:43 AM PDT by Titan Magroyne (What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.)
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To: LomanBill
I can't believe it took 54 posts for Ayn and her Objectivist Church of Me to slither into this discussion.
63 posted on 05/02/2011 6:53:35 AM PDT by Pan_Yan
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To: Titan Magroyne

*applause*


64 posted on 05/02/2011 6:56:10 AM PDT by Slings and Arrows (You can't have Ingsoc without an Emmanuel Goldstein.)
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To: TheOldLady

Sounds like a lot of nothing.


65 posted on 05/02/2011 6:59:21 AM PDT by Slings and Arrows (You can't have Ingsoc without an Emmanuel Goldstein.)
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To: GodGunsGuts; Fichori; tpanther; Gordon Greene; Ethan Clive Osgoode; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; ...

ping


66 posted on 05/02/2011 7:05:12 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

Two main/basic flavors of false religions in the world Today, i.e. I-Slam, and Evoloserism. I recommend Christianity as a general rule, but anything is better than I-Slam or Evoloserism, including Rastafari.


67 posted on 05/02/2011 7:11:41 AM PDT by wendy1946
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To: Slings and Arrows

That’s right, and it’s why I’m a G-d fearing woman. I know He is.


68 posted on 05/02/2011 7:22:40 AM PDT by TheOldLady
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To: LomanBill

Please clarify the intent of your communication.

Ayn was an atheist but much of what she wrote is inconsistent with what atheists of today believe.


69 posted on 05/02/2011 7:30:11 AM PDT by Neoliberalnot ((Read "The Grey Book" for an alternative to corruption in DC))
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To: metmom
Atheist Chaplains is an oxymoron.
70 posted on 05/02/2011 9:37:01 AM PDT by YHAOS (you betcha!)
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To: Christian Engineer Mass

Do other charities have the same tax exemptions whcih church “related” resorts and entertainment facilities get?
Moose? Elks? Lions? Eagles?
The charity excuse is a lot of a stretch in many cases.

And how about those days off for “religious holidays”.

When it’s done for some, it should be done for all.


71 posted on 05/02/2011 1:30:21 PM PDT by Aroostook25
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To: Aroostook25

Yes charities do get every benefit that churches do. Atheists get every day off they want. And atheism should be ripped out from being the de facto religion of the federal government.

There should be prayer every day in schools that want it, and if an atheist wants to opt out, they should opt out.

“No prayer” is itself a religion. Taking away religion is itself religion.


72 posted on 05/02/2011 1:35:45 PM PDT by Christian Engineer Mass (25ish Cambridge MA grad student. Many conservative Christians my age out there? __ Click my name)
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To: Titan Magroyne

You’re absolutely right. “Nobody” should be capitalized. Please forgive me Nobody for I have transgressed.


73 posted on 05/02/2011 1:40:10 PM PDT by davisfh (Islam is a mental illness with global social consequences)
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To: Christian Engineer Mass
You just wrote:
“No prayer” is itself a religion. Taking away religion is itself religion.

And on page one in post #4 you wrote:
Atheism is not no religion. They cannot prove there is no God. They are acting out of faith alone.

So you would have no objection to Atheist Clubs and Schools getting the same tax exemptions as religious clubs, aka churches and schools? Would Atheists be able to qualify property as religions and churches?

According to
this source

In recognizing a church as a qualifying tax-exempt entity, the IRS applies the following criteria. The church must have the following.
*A distinct legal existence.
*A recognized creed and form of worship.
*A definite and distinct ecclesiastical government.
*A formal code of doctrine and discipline.
*A distinct religious history.
*Members who are not members of any other church or religious order (transfer letters must confirm membership from one church to another).
*An organization of licensed and/or ordained ministers.
*Ordained and/or licensed ministers selected after
completing prescribed courses of studies.
*Literature of their own.
*Established places of worship.
*Regular attendees and congregational memberships.
*Regular religious sacramental and/or worship services.
*Religious instruction for the young.
*Schools or courses for preparation of its ministers.

74 posted on 05/02/2011 2:10:31 PM PDT by Aroostook25
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To: Pan_Yan; Neoliberalnot

I

HAVE SWORN UPON THE ALTAR OF GOD ETERNAL HOSTILITY

TO EVERY FORM OF TYRANNY OVER THE MIND OF MAN"
--

Thomas Jefferson

 

The relationship between the Individual and their Creator is nobody's business but theirs. And it certainly isn't a product of collective mandate.

75 posted on 05/02/2011 6:09:08 PM PDT by LomanBill (Animals! The DemocRats blew up the windmill with an Acorn!)
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To: davisfh

I read a book once by Roger Zelazny called Creatures of Light and Darkness. There was an agnostic prayer which might work too:

Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not care what I say, I ask, if it matters, that you be forgiven for anything you may have done or failed to do which requires forgiveness. Conversely, if not forgiveness but something else may be required to insure any possible benefit for which you may be eligible after the destruction of your body, I ask that this, whatever it may be, be granted or withheld, as the case may be, in such a manner as to insure your receiving said benefit. I ask this in my capacity as your elected intermediary between yourself and that which may not be yourself, but which may have an interest in the matter of your receiving as much as it is possible for you to receive of this thing, and which may in some way be influenced by this ceremony. Amen


76 posted on 05/02/2011 6:39:43 PM PDT by Redcitizen (In case of economic breakdown, make sure you have a case of Snickers candy bars.)
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To: metmom; betty boop; xzins; P-Marlowe; YHAOS; marron
Seems to me that if the Army accepts atheist Chaplains it will underscore the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals decision in Kaufman v. McCaughtry where the court determined atheism is a religion.

Surely then some Christian legal group could bring a First Amendment case to overturn the previous decisions which banned God's Names in schools and thereafter in most every publicly funded venue.

After all, if atheism is a religion then banning God's Names by judicial fiat has established atheism as the religion of the land.

IMHO, those wrong turn judicial decision have caused much of the spiritual blindness in the US today. Jeepers, the reporters gasp at the Name Jesus as if it were a curse word and yet find it perfectly acceptable when actually used as a curse word.

And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place. Ye shall not do so unto the LORD your God. - Deuteronomy 12:3-4

God's Name is I AM.

77 posted on 05/02/2011 8:44:10 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Redcitizen; Titan Magroyne
That's about as non-commital as you can get, Redcitizen.

I was once discussing religion with some friends, one of whom claimed to be agnostic. The agnostic one was advised that, when you die you will see a light and should go toward it. He was further advised that if the light is flickering to turn around and run as fast as possible in the other direction.

78 posted on 05/02/2011 9:14:07 PM PDT by davisfh (Islam is a mental illness with global social consequences)
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To: GeronL
They call them psychologists.... like the one who slaughtered all those people at Ft. Hood.

That schmuck was a psychiatrist. He trained in medical school before he did a psychiatry residency. Psychologists don't prescribe psych meds as a general rule.

79 posted on 05/02/2011 9:26:33 PM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi minh oi)
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To: davisfh

If its flickering, it must be the light of an oncoming train.


80 posted on 05/02/2011 9:40:53 PM PDT by Redcitizen (In case of economic breakdown, make sure you have a case of Snickers candy bars.)
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To: Alamo-Girl; metmom; betty boop; xzins; P-Marlowe; marron
After all, if atheism is a religion then banning God's Names by judicial fiat has established atheism as the religion of the land.

Oh, the tangled web the black robes weave . . . ( ^8 }

81 posted on 05/02/2011 10:48:28 PM PDT by YHAOS (you betcha!)
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To: Slings and Arrows

LOLOLOL!

You are baaaad!

I love it! ;o)


82 posted on 05/02/2011 11:45:24 PM PDT by dixiechick2000 (Age, skill, wisdom, and a little treachery always overcome youth and arrogance!)
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To: dixiechick2000

“When I’m good, I’m very good. But when I’m bad I’m better.”
—Mae West


83 posted on 05/03/2011 12:06:28 AM PDT by Slings and Arrows (You can't have Ingsoc without an Emmanuel Goldstein.)
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To: Slings and Arrows

Ya’ know...I knew that. ;o)


84 posted on 05/03/2011 12:13:14 AM PDT by dixiechick2000 (Age, skill, wisdom, and a little treachery always overcome youth and arrogance!)
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To: Alamo-Girl
>>wrong turn judicial decision have caused much of the spiritual blindness in the US today.

It's a synergistic effect.   Those judicial decisions were rendered in the context of a society whose members have increasingly abdicated personal responsibility for their own spirituality to a "leadership" of perverted wolven-parrots wearing vestigial Roman state-sanctioned plumage.    "Spiritual" fleecemeisters like this...

...meth using connoisseur of male prostitution who, in his heyday, presided over a mega-circus tent filled with Useful Idiots who evidently learned that it was ok to lie about your income on your mortgage application... so long as you were raptured before the ARM on the McMansion exploded.

Observe this typical graph of house valuations in "conservative" Colorado Springs - right in the front yard of the Air Force Academy, Focus on the Family, NORAD, Fort Carson... etc etc etc.

"morality"?

Given that "Liar Loans" and dishonesty were a central element of how the bubble got blown,  it doesn't exactly inspire confidence in the calibration of the moral compass of those "leading" the Technocratic Military Industrial Oligarchy.

It's almost as if Yuri Bezmenov...

1. Ideological subversion is the process which is [a] legitimate, old word, and open. You can see it with your own eyes.  All American mass media has to do is to "unplug bananas" from their ears, open up their eyes,  and they can see it.  There is no mystery.  
 
It has nothing to do with espionage. I know that espionage intelligence gathering looks more romantic.  It sells more deodorants through the advertising.  That's probably why your Hollywood producers are so crazy about James Bond types of films. But in reality the main emphasis of the KGB is NOT in the area of intelligence at all.
 
According to my opinion, and the opinions of many defectors of my caliber, only about 15% of time, money, and manpower is spent on espionage as such. The other 85% is a slow process which we call either ideological subversion, active measures, or psychological warfare. What it basically means is: to change the perception of reality of every American that despite of the abundance of information no one is able to come to sensible conclusions in the interest of defending themselves, their families, their community, and their country.
 
It's a great brainwashing process which goes very slow and is divided into four basic stages.
 
The first stage being "demoralization"....
 
---KGB DefectorYuri Bezmenov
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2095202/posts
 
...knew what he was talking about.

Morality?  Nah, that's somebody shearing the Sheeple on the steps of the temple an and, as usual, it ain't gonna have a happy ending:

Official: Mortgage fraud 'is a ticking time bomb’
The Greensboro News-Recod ^ | 5/3/11 | Joe Killian

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2714123/posts

Same ol' same ol'...

John 2:15
15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle;
NIV

Meet the New Boss, Same as the Old Ba'al
--The Who?

85 posted on 05/03/2011 5:35:24 AM PDT by LomanBill (Animals! The DemocRats blew up the windmill with an Acorn!)
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To: davisfh

>>> I was once discussing religion with some friends, one of whom claimed to be agnostic. The agnostic one was advised that, when you die you will see a light and should go toward it. He was further advised that if the light is flickering to turn around and run as fast as possible in the other direction.

LOL, I gotta remember that one!

You know what they say: Just so long as it’s a DRY heat...


86 posted on 05/03/2011 6:51:21 AM PDT by Titan Magroyne (What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.)
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To: Alamo-Girl; angryoldfatman; LeGrande; metmom; xzins; P-Marlowe; YHAOS; marron
After all, if atheism is a religion then banning God's Names by judicial fiat has established atheism as the religion of the land.

Excellent insight, dearest sister in Christ! Of course, the Constitution forbids the establishment of a state religion. But these days, increasingly the judiciary seems to regard the Constitution as their personal property with which they can do anything they want.

So it's nice that SCOTUS has indicated atheism is a "religion." I think they got that just exactly right.

Atheists probably strenuously object to that characterization. Among other things, they believe that faith and reason are mutually exclusive. But note I said "they believe": They are men of faith, too....

Thanks ever so much for your excellent observations!

87 posted on 05/03/2011 8:31:10 AM PDT by betty boop (Seek truth and beauty together; you will never find them apart. — F. M. Cornford)
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To: YHAOS
Yes indeed, dear YHAOS!
88 posted on 05/03/2011 8:57:37 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: LomanBill
Thank you for sharing your concerns, dear LomanBill!

There will always be the Jim Jones', Applewhites, Koreshes, Mohammeds and so on.

But a Christian will not follow them because he does not know the voice of a stranger. He follows only Christ.

To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. – John 10:3-5

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Corinthians 2:14

And again,

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:1-9

because:

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Colossians 3:3

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. - Galatians 2:20

God's Name is I AM.

89 posted on 05/03/2011 9:06:25 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop
Atheists probably strenuously object to that characterization. Among other things, they believe that faith and reason are mutually exclusive. But note I said "they believe": They are men of faith, too..

SO very true!

Thank you for sharing your insights, dearest sister in Christ, and thank you for your encouragements!

90 posted on 05/03/2011 9:08:25 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: neverdem

This is utter nonsense. Keep in mind that I was an atheist for the greater part of my 47 years. There is already in place a service for soldiers who have no religious faith. All the bases have psychologists and psychiatrists who’re always at the ready. They’d be more than happy to help an atheist soldier having trouble reintegrating post combat, etc, etc.


91 posted on 05/03/2011 1:49:01 PM PDT by Melas
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To: ansel12

So; are you a Mono-theist, Tri-Theist, Poly Theist, or what?

And just how SURE are you on the exact Number of Gods that have existed?

As an Agnostic, I have ruled OUT any number Larger than 1.


92 posted on 05/03/2011 7:37:41 PM PDT by PizzaDriver ( on)
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To: Alamo-Girl
It seems to me that the crux of the issue is the degree to which military chaplaincy represents a nexus of religion and state in light of the fact that the founders in their wisdom explicitly prohibited state establishments of religion in the 1st amendment.

This is especially troublesome given the demoralized condition of our society along with the self-evident truth that perverted eunuchs have infested the occult infrastructure of virtually every manifestation of theocratic tyranny that has ever imposed itself upon the human species.

When the state gets into the business of sanctioning religious belief, Ba'al is at the door. 

Ba'al being a Hebrew word for Owner, Lord, Possessor, Master- typically and repeatedly observable throughout history as the merger of Commerce, Religion, and Government into a theocratic tyranny that enslaves and subjugates the Individual under the will of the religiously sanctioned/mandated collective hive.

Thus, my FRiend, the faith of Americans in their Creator belongs in the hearts of FREE Individual American citizens - not in ANY government establishment thereof.

93 posted on 05/03/2011 9:45:11 PM PDT by LomanBill (Animals! The DemocRats blew up the windmill with an Acorn!)
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To: PizzaDriver; ansel12
>>So; are you a Mono-theist, Tri-Theist, Poly Theist, or what?

The notion of the Trinity isn't as myserious as some would make it.

Father:  The Creator beyond temporal existance; beyond space and time.

Son: The Creator in temporal form..

Holy Spirit:  The Creator in mediation between the temporal and non-temporal.

It's unfortunate that Jefferson got so hung up on the differentiation.  Maybe he wouldn't have, if he'd been able to observe/model Creation in the context of modern Physics.

94 posted on 05/03/2011 10:00:06 PM PDT by LomanBill (Animals! The DemocRats blew up the windmill with an Acorn!)
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To: LomanBill
Thank you for sharing your concerns.
95 posted on 05/03/2011 10:04:06 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

Mr. KUNZIG: At the conclusion of your testimony here, Mr. Johnson, could you give us a summary of the overall manner in which the Communists have attempted to infiltrate and poison the religious organizations of America wherever possible?

Mr. JOHNSON: Once the tactic of infiltrating religious organizations was set by the Kremlin, the actual mechanics of implementing the “new line” was a question of following the general experiences of the living church movement in Russia, where the Communists discovered that the destruction of religion could proceed much faster through infiltration of the church by Communist agents operating within the church itself.

The Communist leadership in the United States realized that the infiltration tactic in this country would have to adapt itself to American conditions and the religious make-up peculiar to this country. In the earliest stages it was determined that with only small forces available it would be necessary to concentrate Communist agents in the seminaries and divinity schools. The practical conclusion drawn by the Red leaders was that these institutions would make it possible for a small Communist minority to influence the ideology of future clergymen in the paths most conducive to Communist purposes.

In general, the idea was to divert the emphasis of clerical thinking from the spiritual to the material and political...

===================================

The Congressional Record on Investigation of Communist Activities in the New York City Area (Parts 6-8)


Hearing Before The Committee on Un-American Activities

House of Representatives, 83rd Congress, First Session July 7 and 8, and July 13 and 14, 1953
http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/communism/communism.htm

And 58 years later, the Wolves are inside the wire...again.

 


96 posted on 05/03/2011 11:06:40 PM PDT by LomanBill (Animals! The DemocRats blew up the windmill with an Acorn!)
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