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At a Jewish time of reflection, thoughts on a pope and Catholicism
JTA ^ | May 5, 2011 | Ruth Ellen Gruber

Posted on 05/05/2011 12:12:38 PM PDT by presidio9

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To: Cincinnatus
With regard to attend the Bar Mitzvahs, no particular offense should be taken as we Catholic kids were not allowed to attend ANY non-Catholic religious service.

When I was a kid back in the 50s, I belonged to a Boy Scout troop sponsored by a Presbyterian Church. Once a year they had 'Scout Sunday' and invited all the troop members to attend. I asked my parish priest if it was ok if I went. He said to the effect that I'd better go because that church did a lot for the kids and I owed them that respect, and BTW, say hello to Rev. Anderson while I was there. They were good friends.

I think that not attending another service was a myth that a lot of people believed, and not actually a church rule.

21 posted on 05/05/2011 2:27:45 PM PDT by Ditto (Nov 2, 2010 -- Partial cleaning accomplished. More trash to remove in 2012)
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To: Dr. Sivana

Ping


22 posted on 05/05/2011 2:36:09 PM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline, Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club: Burn 'em Bright!!!)
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To: Romulus

“Let’s make a few phone calls?” To whom? Document, please.


23 posted on 05/05/2011 2:36:40 PM PDT by juliej
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To: wideawake

Zolli converted when he was not named Chief Rabbi of Israel. It was a sour grapes move.


24 posted on 05/05/2011 2:39:39 PM PDT by juliej
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To: juliej

“Zolli converted when he was not named Chief Rabbi of Israel. It was a sour grapes move.”
So nice of you to offer your opinion on the matter.
I guess you were there when he converted and could read his mind and heart.
I would ask you to offer an opinon as to what I am thinking.
But on second thought, I will tell you point blank- STFU.
Go back and read the comments to you from the others (except mine). They were all trying to educate you and all you can do is throw another stone. Good training, I guess.


25 posted on 05/05/2011 3:33:32 PM PDT by a02001 (Help the third world poor one person at a time- www.kiva.org)
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To: Alex Murphy

Well, there weren’t 20 million combatants, and in any case by Western Powers I mean the leadership. Everyone knew something aweful was going on, but witness the Red Cross’s complicity in the Theresienstadt charade. But could anyone guess that the Nazis were so obscessed with the Jewish Question that they were willing to starve units on the Eastern Front in order to ship Jews to their deaths? It was insane, but they were doing it. Only the Conspirators did something. But it seems that the Allies were unwilling to trust them. The stupidity of the “unconditional surrender thing.” They say that even Stalin with nonplused. He is said to have commented, but if they surrender to you, you can make it as unconditional as you want. Which is what McArthur did in Japan. And if Hitler had disappeared in July, 1944, the terms proposed to the new Goverman Government would have made Versailles seem like a slap on the wrist.


26 posted on 05/05/2011 3:37:04 PM PDT by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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To: Ditto

“I think that not attending another service was a myth that a lot of people believed, and not actually a church rule.”

My Methodist Mom and Catholic Dad were not allowed to get married in his church back in 1945; they had to have the wedding in the rectory. When my Mom’s cousin got married at her church in 1957, we were allowed to attend the wedding service, but were told it would be a sin to participate; even singing the hymns would have been wrong.


27 posted on 05/05/2011 3:41:09 PM PDT by rwa265 (Christ my Cornerstone)
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To: presidio9
In fact, Jewish rabbis are just as likely as Catholic priests to engage in pedophila sexual abuse

I call bull. Rabbis are encouraged to marry and have a large family. Celibacy is unnatural, causing natural human desires to be bottled up, which then sometimes spill out in unnatural ways.

28 posted on 05/05/2011 4:33:45 PM PDT by gogogodzilla (Live free or die!)
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To: juliej
Zolli converted when he was not named Chief Rabbi of Israel. It was a sour grapes move.

This is not true, since Zolli was baptized in 1945, and the State of Israel didn't exist at that time.
29 posted on 05/05/2011 5:37:48 PM PDT by Cheburashka (Democratic Underground: The Hogwarts of stupid.)
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To: juliej
Zolli converted when he was not named Chief Rabbi of Israel. It was a sour grapes move.

Utter nonsense.

Your completely unsubstantiated accusation is as petty as it is false.

Zolli did not put himself forward as Chief Rabbi for Israel.

When Zolli converted in 1945, the Chief Ashkenazic Rabbi of Israel was Yitzhak Herzog, who was only 57 years old and in good health, and Herzog had already held the office for almost a decade when Zolli converted.

There was no vacancy and there was no question of Zolli replacing the well-respected and established incumbent.

You should quit making stuff up.

30 posted on 05/05/2011 7:00:47 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: a02001; Cheburashka; juliej
See post 30.

There was indeed a Chief Rabbinate of Israel in 1945 - in fact two, as there still are today: one for the Ashkenazim and one for the Sephardim.

This Rabbinate preceded the formation of the state of Israel.

Zolli, by the way, was Ashkenaz and not Sephardic - his name was Anton Zoller before the Fascists forced him to Italianize it.

However, juliej completely invented the whole "sour grapes" thing - her claim is laughably ahistorical and betrays zero knowledge of the history and the politics involved.

31 posted on 05/05/2011 7:06:46 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: wideawake
What you said about juliej pretty much matches what I suspected about said person, however I have my doubts about what you said about any rabbinates being named after Israel in 1945. The decision to call the new state Israel was made only in 1948 and there were alternative names suggested at that time, such as Judea, Zion, and others.

Perhaps the rabbinates were using the name “Palestine” after the mandate before 1948, and then were changed with the coming of independence. I do know that the Jewish brigade recruited by the British during WWII used an armpatch that said "Palestine" on it, so the term did not have the same connotations that it does now.

32 posted on 05/05/2011 8:10:22 PM PDT by Cheburashka (Democratic Underground: The Hogwarts of stupid.)
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To: Alex Murphy
During 1943 and into 1944, there were usually 6-7 people illegally living in this home

Meanwhile, the Pope saved 860,000 -- Lapide's number, not mine -- but his actions are continually criticized by those who claim he "didn't do enough" or "was silent".

As the old saw goes, no good deed goes unpunished.

33 posted on 05/05/2011 9:20:04 PM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: juliej
To be fair, when the Jews in the Roman neighborhood near the Vatican were rounded up by the Nazis, the Pope did not speak up - and this happened under his nose.

He did a lot more than "speak up". The convents and monasteries around Rome were full of Jews. The Pope's own summer house at Castel Gandolfo was the place of refuge of a number of Jews; some Jewish babies were even born there. When the Nazis demanded a ransom of 50 kilograms of gold for some Jewish prisoners, the Pope provided 15 kilograms from the Vatican reserves. There are many other examples.

When John XXIII, who was then the Papal nuncio in Istanbul, was credited with saving thousands of Jews by giving them false baptismal papers, he replied, "You should thank the Pope. Everything that I did, I did on his instructions."

34 posted on 05/05/2011 9:27:12 PM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: presidio9
But the Polish-born pontiff was the best pope the Jewish world ever had.

What about Alexander VI? Sure he threw orgies in the Vatican. But he also gave expelled Spanish Jews sanctuary in Rome and protected them -- a move that was both right and deeply unpopular.

35 posted on 05/05/2011 11:06:31 PM PDT by ChicagoHebrew (.)
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To: Cheburashka

The Chief Rabbinate of Israel pre-dates the State of Israel by centuries. Its origin lies in an Ottoman-appointed position, the “Rishon L’tzion,” (”First in Zion”) which was created in the mid-17th century.


36 posted on 05/05/2011 11:18:57 PM PDT by ChicagoHebrew (.)
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To: Campion
Meanwhile, the Pope saved 860,000 -- Lapide's number, not mine

That number is a ludicrous exaggeration. All of Italy had only 50,000 Jews at the time.

37 posted on 05/05/2011 11:22:37 PM PDT by ChicagoHebrew (.)
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To: ChicagoHebrew
That number is a ludicrous exaggeration. All of Italy had only 50,000 Jews at the time.

Who says that it only consisted of Jews in Italy? There were over nine million Jews in Europe before World War II started.

38 posted on 05/06/2011 1:41:27 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007 (To view the FR@Alabama ping list, click on my profile!)
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To: Campion
The convents and monasteries around Rome were full of Jews. The Pope's own summer house at Castel Gandolfo was the place of refuge of a number of Jews; some Jewish babies were even born there. When the Nazis demanded a ransom of 50 kilograms of gold for some Jewish prisoners, the Pope provided 15 kilograms from the Vatican reserves. There are many other examples.

When John XXIII, who was then the Papal nuncio in Istanbul, was credited with saving thousands of Jews by giving them false baptismal papers, he replied, "You should thank the Pope. Everything that I did, I did on his instructions."

A piece of history not very well known....

39 posted on 05/06/2011 2:38:12 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: ChicagoHebrew
Pius XII's delegates were saving Jews all over Europe . . . not just in Italy. They saved hundreds upon hundreds in Italy, though -- while Pius XII was under threat of arrest and execution. He made arrangements to resign in absentia if the Nazis got him, so that a new Pope could be elected without delay.

I have the greatest respect for my Jewish brethren, but there's a trend going on that I've seen among my friends here as well as on FR. Much of what the Jewish community "knows" about Catholics in general and Pope Pius XII in particular is not very well founded. When I talk to my friends, it's "I heard . . ." or "Somebody said . . . " that the pope did this or did that (or didn't do this or that).

The release of the East German and Russian espionage files revealed that STASI and the KGB waged a campaign to discredit Pius XII, because they saw him as an enemy of Communism as well as Fascism (which he was). This included funding the scurrilous play The Deputy (Der Stellvertreter), which (although completely fictional) is one of the main sources of the libels against the pope.

You have to carefully investigate what you hear rather than taking it at face value. It may well originate with people who have ulterior motives and are deliberately taking advantage of a certain cynicism in the Jewish community.

40 posted on 05/06/2011 7:17:08 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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