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The Nasty King's Speech
Arutz Sheva ^ | 15/5/11 | Ruth King

Posted on 05/15/2011 10:53:45 AM PDT by Eleutheria5

Colin Firth is a fine, versatile actor. He is undoubtedly the best Mr. Darcy in all the movies made of Jane Austen’s Pride and Prejudice and is now set to play Avraham Stern, the intellectual and poet who became leader of the Jewish underground Fighters for the Freedom of Israel (LEHI), called the Stern Gang by the British.

Michael Winterbottom, who produced the film (to be called “The Promise”) did much of the research at the Begin Center and has stated that it is based on the true story of two British police detectives, Thomas Wilkin and Geoffrey Morton, who caught and killed Stern.

Thomas James Wilkin was decorated several times by the Crown for his services in Palestine in tracking down members of the Jewish underground. He spoke fluent Hebrew, taught to him by his Jewish mistress Shoshana Borochov.

Wilkins was himself killed two years after killing a handcuffed Avraham Stern, and, Winterbottom states: “Weirdly, we have at the end of the film, we have an interview, which we’ve already done with one of the people who assassinated Wilkin, who is still alive, two of them in fact, so we have them talking about how they assassinated Wilkin already, so it’s a great story.”

(Excerpt) Read more at israelnationalnews.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Israel; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: colinfirth; georgevi; lehi; stern

1 posted on 05/15/2011 10:53:53 AM PDT by Eleutheria5
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To: Eleutheria5
Brings to mind Leon Uris' book Exodus and the film that was made from it circa 1960, in which the Jewish underground had a fictionalized name.
2 posted on 05/15/2011 10:59:04 AM PDT by Ciexyz
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To: Eleutheria5

This thread is worthless without Colin Firth as Mr. Darcy pics! I think Miss Austen would have heartily approved!

I’m not much into modern day chick flicks, but Jane Austen books translated to screen usually make me happy ;)


3 posted on 05/15/2011 11:01:17 AM PDT by Hoosier Catholic Momma (Change everything you are, everything you were, your number has been called.)
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To: Eleutheria5
As with anything, there are two sides to all stories. While the freedom of Israel is a giant positive for the Jewish experience, they have to come to terms with some of the “freedom fighters” that committed acts of terrorism that deserve NO praise.

A confident nation needs to acknowledge what was not right.

I say the same to the Irish. Irish independence is great but do not forget those Irishmen and women who crossed the line.

Same applies to South Africa and the end of Apartheid. Nelson Mandela may have turned pacifist but many in the ANC did wrong

“They did the same to us” is not an excuse. Never is. Killing innocent civilians even for the “Greater Good” is a slippery slope

As annoying as I find the “Sainthood” that is imposed on people like Gandhi, MLK and Mandela, the one thing I do find amazing about all three of them is that they never believed in an “eye for an eye”. Each of them wished no death on their oppressors.

I wish that all nations would look deeply inside and see how many of their “heroes” killed innocents.

Many of FR will doubtless attack this post and say that the
“Brits” had it coming etc etc. Fine, you may believe that. I believe that too when it comes to Army vs Army. But when civilians start getting killed in the name of “my freedom” that is where I draw the line.

As horrific and vile as the Nazi regime was, killing over 5 million Germans by the Red Armies at the end of the war was a gigantic war crime and yet it remains unmourned today as the “Germans deserved it”

Probably the greatest mass rape occurred in modern history when the Red Armies swept through Europe in general and Germany in particular.

Extremism in any camp is bad. Israel has much to be proud of like the wars of 1948, 67 and 73. It is brilliant nation. It should today be confident enough to look deep inside and see if some of these “heroes” of their Independence were truly heroes if they killed civilians.

4 posted on 05/15/2011 11:24:22 AM PDT by SoftwareEngineer
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To: SoftwareEngineer

With modern SMART weapons the United States has become the nation most averse to innocent casualties in warfare in the history of the world. But war we must as our enemies will certainly war with us.


5 posted on 05/15/2011 11:36:18 AM PDT by onedoug (If)
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To: onedoug
Onedoug,

As a proud American it pains me when we kill Civilians. It truly does.

We are in a vicious war against the “ROP”. Yet, we are getting drawn into a war, where we are making big mistakes.

The reason for this is that we refuse to acknowledge that this war started with the GOVERMENTS of Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan.

If we truly want to win this war, we need to fight those nations and destroy their active support of Islamic Terrorism.

With current technologies no war will be 100% Civilian Casualty Free. Just won't happen with the technology we have.

However, where I think my nation is different is that we the US are not TRYING to kill Civilians. NOTE the difference. We no longer are aiming at Civilians. That does not mean that we are perfect.

I am not some rabid nationalist that thinks America is perfect. But the fact remains that the USA deploys the most “Civilian friendly” war machine in the world. That sounds like an awful oxymoron and I certainly understand the irony.

However, the USA has made it its policy to not target civilians deliberately. One day, with the grace of God, we will have uber smart weapons that can kill ONLY the bad guys. But I do know this: the USA today does more than ANY other nation in the world bar none to limit civilian casualties.

Talk to any of the Marines that went into Fallujah. Ask them how much easier it would have been to just nuke that blasted town. Ask them about how hard they worked to limit civilian casualties.

As a nation, we the Americans, have realized that deliberately targeting Civilians is not the thing to do.

The obvious question to me is what I think about Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Here is my response. I think that was in the grand scheme of things a mistake. The result of those bombings was CORRECT. Japan surrendered. Possibly a million lives overall were saved on both sides. However, the ends do not justify the means.

If I had been President in 1945 (easy to say, hard to actually live with those decisions) I would have dropped the nukes on the commercial areas of Tokyo or the Emperor's Palace in Tokyo.I would have let them see the devastation but limited civilian casualties.

I would have then told them that the next ten would be on top of their most populated areas and let them make a decision.

As I said above, easier said than done. Who knows how history would have turned. All I know today is that we should work hard to limit Civilian losses.

War is war and when pushed against a wall, we have to fight. It is a matter of survival. However, what distinguishes us from savages is our ability to show mercy and kindness for Civilians.

One of the best things America ever did was show mercy to Germany after WWII and help re-build it. It is a lesson we have applied to Iraq and Afghanistan and it makes us a better nation today.

6 posted on 05/15/2011 11:51:53 AM PDT by SoftwareEngineer
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To: SoftwareEngineer

Thanks for an excellent post. You are likely to get considerable grief for it.


7 posted on 05/15/2011 11:52:11 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Ciexyz
"Brings to mind Leon Uris' book Exodus and the film that was made from it circa 1960, in which the Jewish underground had a fictionalized name. "

Many a child played the theme from Exodus as part of a piano recital back in the late 1960's or early 1970's.

8 posted on 05/15/2011 12:02:31 PM PDT by Think free or die
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To: Sherman Logan
“Sherman Logan to SoftwareEngineer
Thanks for an excellent post. You are likely to get considerable grief for it.”

I know, however, I had to say my piece.
I am very supportive of Israel and all other Freedom loving nations like the UK, France, India, Italy, Ireland, Canada etc.
However, it bothers me when one is asked here on FR to accept something a 100%. "Everything that Israel does is good!". Horsecrap! I am a proud American and I don't even think everything we do as a country is a 100% good.
Israel is a modern day success story with much to be proud of. They are a beacon of freedom in the awful Middle East. But like ANY other nation, they have made mistakes. The mark of a mature nation is to have the strength to acknowledge mistakes. One of the big reasons I do NOT respect Russia is that it still has not apologized for the great destruction they wreaked upon Eastern Europe. They basically destroyed those countries for eternity. Most of them are now in a demographic drain-hole of extinction with no hope of climbing out.
Let us be proud of a strong and free Israel but let us not turn into idol worshipers by blindly supporting everything. God gave us a brain. Let us use it.
Flame away!

9 posted on 05/15/2011 12:03:17 PM PDT by SoftwareEngineer
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To: Eleutheria5

I liked Matthew Macfadyen as Mr. Darcey while Firth as perfect in `The King’s Speech.’


10 posted on 05/15/2011 12:08:22 PM PDT by tumblindice
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To: Hoosier Catholic Momma
I AGREE!
11 posted on 05/15/2011 12:12:43 PM PDT by FrdmLvr (Death to tyrants)
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To: SoftwareEngineer
There's as much critical examination in Israel of its Founding as there is in the U.S. or any truly free nation.

You should read Menachem Begin's autobiography "The Revolt" to appreciate his argument that the Jewish underground took pains to avoid civilian casualties.
12 posted on 05/15/2011 12:16:04 PM PDT by kenavi ("Anything that can't stand up to ribbing isn't worth much to begin with." Eric Idle)
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To: kenavi

Please read my entire post. The independence of Israel (a fantastic thing!!!) was brought on by hundreds of thousands of very very good men and women who worked hard to give the Jews a homeland.

What bugs me is the tendency we have on the right to justify every part of the Independence struggle especially people like Stern.

In this respect the “Left” of Israel (Labor party etc) has been very fair in its introspection. However the “Right” of Israel (Likud etc) has been a very “black and white” party when it comes to people like Stern. The “Lehi Service Ribbon” in my opinion was ill considered.

The Lehi group requires some open minded thought processing. They are not pure Jewish heroes like the warriors at the Masada. Yes, they fought for Israeli independence but it is my considered opinion (and y’all may disagree) that the “ends do not justify the means”

Shalom!


13 posted on 05/15/2011 12:27:04 PM PDT by SoftwareEngineer
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To: FrdmLvr

Oh yes! Thanks for the eye candy.

My daughter and I are known to periodically revel in a day long feast of Collin Firth in Pride and Prejudice. It is like eating chocolate.


14 posted on 05/15/2011 12:44:44 PM PDT by marsh2
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To: SoftwareEngineer

Wilkin was neither innocent nor a civilian. To what, specifically, are you referring?


15 posted on 05/15/2011 1:08:27 PM PDT by Eleutheria5 (End the occupation. Annex today.)
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To: Ciexyz

But Uris is usually worthless as a historian.


16 posted on 05/15/2011 1:13:37 PM PDT by Eleutheria5 (End the occupation. Annex today.)
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To: Eleutheria5

I rarely go to the movies, but I did see The King’s Speech, which was wonderful. I remember King George and the Duke and Duchess of Windsor very well as a child, but i didn’t realize the King had such a debilitating speech problem. I thought his speech after they got into WWII was amazing at the time he gave it. God rest his soul.


17 posted on 05/15/2011 1:31:01 PM PDT by Paperdoll ( On the cutting edge)
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To: Eleutheria5
Dear Eleutheria,

I don't want to get into a propaganda war over here. One of the sad things about the Lehi group is how they are used by Arabs to demonize the ENTIRE Jewish nation.

As a result of the hyperbole and nonsense that comes out of the Arab Street about the Lehi group, any sensible critique of the Lehi group gets molded in with the anti semetic rantings of the Arab Street

To criticize the Lehi group today is guaranteed to attract an “anti Semitic” label to yourself.

As I said in my previous post, if one ignores the Arab Street, and thoughtfully thinks through the actions of the Lehi group, one can only wonder why:

1. They supported the Nazis all the way up to 1940. The excuse given is that the “Final Solution” had not begun yet, but so what? The Nazis were solidly anti Jewish, far more than Brits or anyone else

2. Flirtation with Fascism. Again, multiple members of the Lehi group flirted with Fascism

3. The incident at Deir Yessin. Yes, the Arabs lie about the rapes etc, but an independent ISRAELI commission found that unarmed civilians were killed. Again, this incident has been subject to so much propaganda by the Arab Street that now in Israel people wonder if it even happened. There lies ample evidence that some of those killed were Arab soldiers, but most observers believe that atleast some unarmed civilians were killed

4. The assassination of Folke Bernadotte. Whether the Lehi group agreed with him or not, he was a diplomat and not a soldier.

5. Killing of Jewish “collaborators”. Who defined who was a collaborator

6. Extortion from businesses to fund their campaign. Again, when does extortion become legitimate

7. Support of World Socialism. Many of the Lehi group were avowed “armed” socialists advocating an armed socialist takeover of the world

8. Censorship, most famously the death threats against Hugh Trevor-Roper

Please keep in mind, how difficult it is to dispassionately debate Israeli history. Due to crazy liberals and the Arab Street pouring out millions of gallons of anti Semitic venom per day, any legitimate criticism of various Jewish figures is seen as “Anti Semitic”.

Even here on FR, we consider Israel as Roman Catholics consider the Pope. “Every action of Israel is divinely inspired and it is INCAPABLE of any errors. No errors have ever been committed, can be committed or will be committed by Israel”

That is not healthy. That is not mature. For a mature country an internal introspection is necessary. Do not legitimize people who twisted civilization just because their end goals and yours are the same.

As an example, Hitler disliked communism So, did I. Yet, I dislike Nazism too. The “enemy of my enemy is my friend” is one of the worst life lessons in life. To the great regret of Eastern Europe the eternally evil FDR hooked up with Stalin and put 200 million people in slavery for 60 years, just because Stalin was in a fight with Hitler.

Just my 2 shekels over here. I know you will disagree. That is fine. I wish you peace. Shalom!

18 posted on 05/15/2011 1:32:13 PM PDT by SoftwareEngineer
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To: FrdmLvr

*sigh*

I LOVE LOVE LOVE this version of Pride and Prejudice!

And Colin Firth as Mr. Darcy....*swoon*


19 posted on 05/15/2011 1:39:22 PM PDT by Shelayne (Monthly donors wanted!)
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To: SoftwareEngineer

I ask a simple question, and you put words in my mouth.

1. “They supported the Nazis all the way up to 1940”. Let’s be dispassionate about this. What form did that support take?

2. “Flirtation with fascism”. Again, substantiate. The Betar corps was trained in fascist Italy, true. Some of the trainees liked what they saw there. But what did Lehi do that constituted “flirtation”?

3. Deir Yassin. “There lies ample evidence that some of those killed were Arab soldiers, but most observers believe that atleast some unarmed civilians were killed” some, some, some. Here are the actual numbers. 200 unarmed civilians safely transported to the Old City of Jerusalem in trucks supplied by the Irgun, who also sent a sound truck to announce that fighting was about to start and offering safe transport. 145 Iraqi irregulars killed, at least one after the battle was over, found disguised as a woman, hiding among women. He pulled out a pistol and fired, causing a general melee in which actual women were killed, unarmed, civilian and everything. 105 unarmed civilians were found killed, mixed among the Iraqi irregulars.

The hyperbole and nonsense that Arabs have spewed since Deir Yassin was largely and in part actively encouraged by Menahem Begin. He believed that it would cause a massive, panicked exodus from Israel, which is exactly what occurred. Neither he, nor anyone else, however, imagined that these war-time emigrants would be confined to refugee camps for three or more generations, or that they would remain so designated throughout post 1967 Israel due to the machinations of Resolution 242 and UNRWA. There is one refugee camp right in Jerusalem. Another, el Arub, is located along Highway 60 near Gush Etzion, and looks astonishingly prosperous.

As for the rest following that of Deir Yassin, I’m not going to accuse you of anti-Semitism, or even deny the allegations. They sound true enough. I carry no brief for Lehi, being more a fan of the Irgun. I will, however, say that your tone is somewhat pompous, and better suited for a lecture hall than an informal forum. Loosen up.


20 posted on 05/15/2011 2:09:37 PM PDT by Eleutheria5 (End the occupation. Annex today.)
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To: Think free or die

I’ve seen the movie quite a few times and read the book “Exodus.” I’m reasonably certain that the organizations to which they referred were “Hagganah,” and the “Palmach,” both very real outfits.


21 posted on 05/15/2011 2:35:49 PM PDT by Ax (Osama Bin Laden, the newest weed in the gardens of hell.)
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To: FrdmLvr

Nope—still prefer Olivier.


22 posted on 05/15/2011 5:01:29 PM PDT by Mach9
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To: Eleutheria5
Hi Eleuthria,

Sorry if I came across as “pompous”. However, you are on the money on the “lecture hall” comment. I have debated these topics with various leftists and I do try to keep a very dispassionate tone while discussing events.

That works well in a scholarly debate but in a lively forum like FR, it sounds boring.

There are many of us friends of Israel in Academia, Politics and Big Business that are there to make sure that anti Semites are exposed and held in check. We are proud of our support of Israel and make sure that we let everyone know of it.

However, we also let people know that we don't support Israel due to some blind loyalty. We make it clear that we support Israel due to its commitment to Freedom, respect of Religion and due Process.

Therefore, whenever we encounter an anomaly in the behavior of the Israeli government that goes counter to the normal behavior of Israel (rare..I agree) we do speak up. And while we are politically on the right, we don't hesitate to show our respect to people like Rabin. He was a good man. I was in tears when he was assassinated. I don't agree with everything that he did but I tell you what, that guy was a shining example of why Israel stands shoulders above the crazies in the Middle East.

23 posted on 05/15/2011 5:09:12 PM PDT by SoftwareEngineer
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; Lent; GregB; ..
Middle East and terrorism, occasional political and Jewish issues Ping List. High Volume

If you’d like to be on or off, please FR mail me.

..................

24 posted on 05/15/2011 6:48:34 PM PDT by SJackson (Normal people don't sit cross-legged on the floor and bang on drums, WI State Sen Glenn Grothman (R))
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To: SoftwareEngineer

So how do you feel about the American colonists attacking the Red Coats? Had they been pacifists, we’d all be singing God Save The Queen instead of God Bless America!


25 posted on 05/15/2011 7:35:26 PM PDT by Cincinna ( *** NOBAMA 2012 ***)
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To: Cincinna

Army vs Army? What is there to say? That is war. Sad but true.

When the Union Army fought the Confederate Army, that was war (as sad and unfortunate war is among brothers!)

When the Union army killed innocent civilians that was not so much fun.

Again, keep in mind, armies fight each other. That sad fact is a part of our lives. Till man gives up evil (when we all accept God) war will go on.

All I ask (pray, suggest) is that we keep war army to army. The evil enemy (taliban for example, al qaeda as another) chooses to take war to our civilian population. Let us not fall to their level.

Let us attack Taliban head on and take on the armies of Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, the three nations that have nurtured these terrorists.


26 posted on 05/15/2011 8:41:37 PM PDT by SoftwareEngineer
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To: Cincinna

By the way, I am not a pacifist in the classical sense of the word. You misunderstand my posts.

War is required today to fight evil like the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

War is like amputation surgery. Till a magic pill comes along, it is the ONLY way.

All I pray for is that our leaders don’t fall to the level of barbarians and savages like the Taliban and DELIBERATELY target civilians.

Unintentional civil casualties happen. That is sadly life. What makes me proud to be an American is that we deliberately do not target civilians.


27 posted on 05/15/2011 8:44:56 PM PDT by SoftwareEngineer
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To: Hoosier Catholic Momma

I’m with you! :-)


28 posted on 05/15/2011 8:51:49 PM PDT by Pining_4_TX
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To: FrdmLvr

Thank you!


29 posted on 05/15/2011 8:52:34 PM PDT by Pining_4_TX
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To: FrdmLvr

You rock! It’s super-sized even, LOL. What’s funny is up until 5 or so years ago, I had never even read an Austen novel—and I’m an absolute bookworm.

Many thanks for the fine picture!


30 posted on 05/15/2011 9:23:00 PM PDT by Hoosier Catholic Momma (Change everything you are, everything you were, your number has been called.)
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To: marsh2

I really need to get that on DVD. I’ve only borrowed it from the library up to this point. I was also very impressed with the young woman who played Lizzy; Elizabeth is one of my favorite girls’ names—it’s our 2nd daughter’s middle name (couldn’t get my husband to agree to as a first name, alas).


31 posted on 05/15/2011 9:27:02 PM PDT by Hoosier Catholic Momma (Change everything you are, everything you were, your number has been called.)
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To: Shelayne

I think we need a Colin Firth fan club on FR!


32 posted on 05/15/2011 9:27:51 PM PDT by Hoosier Catholic Momma (Change everything you are, everything you were, your number has been called.)
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To: SoftwareEngineer
In World War I, casualties were predominantly military, and civilian areas were avoided. The Germans were back for a rematch within 20 years.

In WW2, there were lots of civilian casualties. Women and children were killed indiscriminately in attacks on Berlin, Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. Both Germany and Japan completely lost interest in war since then.

As far as the Global Jihad is concerned, there is no real military. Osama was a civilian. The 9/11 hijackers were civilians. Do we differentiate between civilians who plant bombs, civilians who teach the bombers how to make bombs, civilian imams who exhort civilians to Jihad, and the civilians who finance Jihad?

33 posted on 05/16/2011 7:01:43 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 ("It is only when we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything" -- Fight Club)
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To: PapaBear3625

PapaBear,

Thank you for your post.

So, interesting point here. Let me reply two fold.

1. Any “civilian” waging war on us is fair game as he/she has crossed over into armed conflict. Firing a tomahawk at a “civilian” camp where bombs are being built is fair play. No one questions that. The sadness over there is that these idiots sometimes have their family members there. What the USA does NOT do is retaliate against 9-11 by firebombing Kabul (which back in the olden days would have been fair game)

2. As far as Global Jihad goes, it is NOT being nurtured in vacuum. Iran and Syria provide overt support to the Hezbollah with money, bases, training. So, the goverments of Iran and Syria are in effect in WAR with us. Regarding Pakistan, it has now become clear, that they are doing the same with Al Qaeda and Taliban. Saudi Arabia is an interesting case. While their military and goverment is not supporting Al Qaeda, they have the ENTIRE religious framework of their country (a framework that is STATE supported) actively supporting Al Qaeda. Those imams raise money, provide weapons and training and help recruit

So, the question is whether Saudi Arabia is to blame and should be attacked. My answer is yes. You cannot just say that the Saudi Army is anti Al Qaeda when the cancer is being promoted by the religious sector in that country

Now keep in mind, we will NEVER invade Saudi Arabia as long as we continue to import 60% of our oil. Saudi Arabia knows this and that is why they choose to not do anything about the Wahabbi extremists.


34 posted on 05/16/2011 8:35:43 AM PDT by SoftwareEngineer
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To: SoftwareEngineer
I always liked Begin's comment to those settling beyond the Green Line: "Your fathers fought and died to build this land without a shred of a messianic complex".

Sharon as PM repeated this comment (before he left Likud). So even leaders of the Right have exercised critical thinking, and did so when it counted.

Down with Pretenders, the Whole Truth is much more heroic!
35 posted on 05/16/2011 8:54:56 AM PDT by kenavi ("Anything that can't stand up to ribbing isn't worth much to begin with." Eric Idle)
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To: Eleutheria5

“He is undoubtedly the best Mr. Darcy in all the movies made of Jane Austen’s Pride and Prejudice”

Clearly this author has not seen the Laurence Olivier version.


36 posted on 05/16/2011 11:11:49 AM PDT by dervish (One person's Libyan al Qaeda terrorist is another person's Libyan freedom fighter)
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To: SoftwareEngineer; Eleutheria5

I could not disagree with you more.

Modern efforts to spare civilians in war means wars are never won. The populace of enemy countries are the enemy. We used to know that and as a result we won wars decisively.

As to Israel, I echo E5’s request —

name names and deeds. What exactly should Israel do a mea culpa about?


37 posted on 05/16/2011 11:31:17 AM PDT by dervish (One person's Libyan al Qaeda terrorist is another person's Libyan freedom fighter)
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To: SoftwareEngineer

Well, glad to have some academics who swim against the tide. I’m also glad that someone is producing a movie that speaks of the actual history of Israel, and the role that the underground plaid, rather than some sanitized Leon Uris thing like Exodus, or some twisted hateful revisionist blather. The underground had its unsavory side, I’m sure. But it was light years more humane and decent than the Palestinian sociopath-fest that passes for the PA and Hamastan governments.

I’m not blindly supportive of Israel. Having witnessed a twilight foundation pouring after a “settler” had his home bulldozed in the middle of the night by the IDF, I would have to join Shalom Achshav to support the present Israeli government. And yes, I do believe that the Palestinians are human beings with rights and feelings. It’s a pity they don’t feel the same about me and mine.


38 posted on 05/16/2011 1:31:16 PM PDT by Eleutheria5 (End the occupation. Annex today.)
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To: SoftwareEngineer

I’d say that Tokyo was way more populous than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined, and if they had bombed Tokyo, left with nobody to surrender on behalf of Japan, the US would have been fighting guerilos for decades afterward. As for the ends not justifying the means, that’s a problematic statement. War by its nature is hell. Its ends are often hard to even justify. Did keeping the Union together justify the sacking of Atlanta and the decimating of South Carolina and large parts of Virginia? The means must be in proportion to the ends desired, and at least plausibly related to bringing about the end’s consummation. But ending the war did justify Hiroshima and Nagasaki, because more people would have been killed on both sides by ending it with a US invasion.

The ends do not justify the means if they are 1. disproportionate, or 2. not plausibly related to bringing about the ends. Thus, “self-determination for the Palestinian people,” even if that were a desirable end, would not justify the slitting of a three-month-old infant’s throat while she lay in her bed. It might have justified legitimate warfare, such as attacking soldiers, or even firing missiles at a city, if it weren’t for the fact that the true end envisioned, the destruction of Israel and murder or eviction of all Jews living there, is despicable, the stated end is a fraud, and the “Palestinian People” have yet to even show themselves collectively interested in, or capable of responsible self determination.


39 posted on 05/16/2011 1:51:09 PM PDT by Eleutheria5 (End the occupation. Annex today.)
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To: dervish
Please read my posts. Israel has NO NEED to do a mea culpa. God knows that She is fighting for her life in the wretched Middle East

My comment did not have to do AT ALL with mea culpas. Quite the contrary, my comment had to do with making people “Pure Heroes”

It will do us no good as a country, nation, religion if we become a “black and white” society and lose our ability to rationally think and make judgments.

Israel does not have to apologize to ANYBODY for the Lehi group. However, that does not mean, Israel needs to glorify Lehi either. So, the difference here is knowing who we are as a nation and not being blindly patriotic but being intelligently patriotic

As an example I give you a very leftist American man. His name was MLK. He had many flaws. However, fundamentally he was able to achieve a miracle. He led African Americans on a civil rights movement that was by and large peaceful

Today, some blacks want to make MLK a “god” and say that he was perfect. That is nonsense. He was not. However, many others like me respect the man DESPITE his flaws as we respect his overall deeds. We don't exercise censorship and pretend MLK was perfect. We openly document his flaws (infidelity, socialism, plagiarism etc) and yet still manage to respect the man.

Hope that makes sense.

40 posted on 05/16/2011 2:39:30 PM PDT by SoftwareEngineer
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To: SoftwareEngineer

You make sense except you seem to have little idea what Israelis are like if you believe they are uncritical of anyone or anything.

However, when your actions, morality and legitimacy are under constant attack by most of the world, you tend to circle the wagons.


41 posted on 05/16/2011 5:27:00 PM PDT by dervish (One person's Libyan al Qaeda terrorist is another person's Libyan freedom fighter)
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To: Hoosier Catholic Momma

It’s not for everyone, but Firth was great in the Last Legion, too. Personally, I like sword movies, so I enjoyed it tremendously. :)


42 posted on 05/16/2011 5:37:56 PM PDT by Politicalmom
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To: dervish

My dear friend Dervish,

You are missing my point. You need to read all my posts. I know that they are all long and boring (:))

However, the point I am making is about the article in the Arutz Sheva. It is NOT about Israel. The columnist (Ruth King) SEEMS to talk positively about the Lehi group. I am not necessarily a huge fan of them.

In my posts I talk about the fact that the Israeli Left (Labor for example) may be very annoying when it comes to economics but they ROCK when it comes to critical thinking. The Israeli right OTOH rocks when it comes to economics and defense but can be very defensive when it comes to Israeli history.

My point is that Israel needs to be proud of who they are. No one incident or person in Israeli history can spoil the miracle that Israel is. Israelis do not need to defend every single freedom fighter as perfect

There is no guilt is allowing that the Lehi group may not have been all that and a bag of chips

Forget the stupid Islamists and Jew Haters. Those guys hate Israel and everything she stands for. There is no talking with them or reasoning with them. Why even bother

Focus instead on the friends of Israel, who are not Jewish but still respect and support Israel deeply due to the fact that she is the ONLY democracy in the Middle East and a beacon of freedom.

Don’t be afraid to lift the skirt with these friends and let things fall where they may.

Let me tell you something my friend. It is not ONLY the Israelis that goes to sleep saying “The Masada shall not fall again”

Shalom!


43 posted on 05/16/2011 6:59:21 PM PDT by SoftwareEngineer
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To: Eleutheria5

I guess the UK has gotten its comeuppance with the invasion of its isle by the ‘Slams.


44 posted on 05/17/2011 5:39:36 PM PDT by happygrl
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