Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

THE MISSISSIPPI FLOODGATES OPEN, Releasing 12 Million Gallons Per Second Onto Louisiana Farmland
Business Insider ^ | 05/16/2011 | Leah Goldman

Posted on 05/16/2011 1:12:42 PM PDT by SeekAndFind

The Army Corps. opened the Morganza spillway on the Mississippi River in Louisiana on Saturday forcing tons of water and covering more than 100 acres of dry land with a foot of water within 30 minutes.

The flood gates were opened to shift the flow of the swollen river away from the numerous oil refineries and chemical plants in Baton Rouge and New Orleans. While the flood waters will move away from the more densely populated area, the opening of the gates could affect 25,000 people, 11,000 structures, and acres of farmland.

This is the first time the Morganza spillway has been opened since 1973. Residents have been evacuated.

(Excerpt) Read more at businessinsider.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events; US: Louisiana; US: Mississippi
KEYWORDS: acoe; atchafalaya; flood; floodgate; flooding; floods; louisiana; mississippi; swamp; usacoe
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-65 next last

CLICK ABOVE LINK FOR THE VIDEO


1 posted on 05/16/2011 1:12:46 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

LA is now sacred. Protect at all costs.


2 posted on 05/16/2011 1:17:34 PM PDT by subterfuge (BUILD MORE NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS NOW!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

The headline implies that this is an agricultural center, which is misleading. There are some farming operations in the basin, and a few small towns (which are protected by ring levees.) That anyone is being flooded is tragic. But it is mostly swampland.


3 posted on 05/16/2011 1:18:17 PM PDT by balch3
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: subterfuge

1. Both these areas ARE in Louisiana, so I don’t know what point you’re trying to make.

2. Letting the area between Baton Rouge and New Orleans flood would be an economic catastrophe for the United States. Not doing anything would cost you, yes you, in more ways than you can imagine.

3. I don’t know why I even bother with these threads. People are going to believe what they want to believe, the facts be damned.


4 posted on 05/16/2011 1:21:25 PM PDT by balch3
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: subterfuge

Carville had better move all his family to higher ground. Here in Memphis we’re getting snakes all over places they normally are not.


5 posted on 05/16/2011 1:23:09 PM PDT by blackdog (The mystery of government is not how Washington works but how to make it stop)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

Why are small towns and farmers being sacrificed for new Orleans?

Is it because N.O. is Ray Nagin’s “Chocolate City” full of Holder’s people where the festering crime-ridden sore of the Ninth Ward must be preserved?

Naawwww....couldn’t be that, I’m sure....</sarc>


6 posted on 05/16/2011 1:24:05 PM PDT by Emperor Palpatine (One of these days, Alice....one of these days.....POW!! Right in the kisser!!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
Seems like I learned years ago, mid-50’s, that flooding from the Mississippi River was an important part of the fertility of the farmlands for hundreds of miles along both sides of the river. I know that was before there were so many cities there too, but it still seems some of the land will benefit from the flooding. Not enough to overcome the damage that will be done to homes, businesses, farms, etc.
7 posted on 05/16/2011 1:24:47 PM PDT by jwparkerjr (I would rather lose with Sarah than win with a RINO!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

100 acres?

That's less than 1/6th of a square mile. I would bet they mean over 100 square miles. It would be nice if these reporters would get their facts straight before publishing.

8 posted on 05/16/2011 1:27:12 PM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: balch3

Yep. Some posters would rather see all the refineries and petro chem plants along the Mississippi destroyed if it meant taking New Orleans with it.


9 posted on 05/16/2011 1:27:15 PM PDT by Rebelbase
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
The Atchafalaya Basin is a very primitive area, for the most part.

It took a while in the 1970's to complete Interstate 10 across this swamp.

Anyone who has ever driven the stretch from Lafayette to Baton Rouge knows they are going to be traveling about 30 miles on a continuous bridge over the swamp.

Now there is some natural gas and oil production in the basin.

And there is some farmland.

But it has been an area that is flooded when the Mississippi threatens to flood Baton Rouge and New Orleans.

The Atchafalaya River goes near Morgan City -- so this city is in danger of some flooding -- depending on how long and how much water is released.

Releasing sooner is better than later.

It is possible to stop some of the release and let the Atchafalaya Basin water start flowing to the Gulf, and then release some water.

What really needs to be done is set up some lakes along the Mississippi that water can be diverted into when there is a significant Spring thaw.

There are Western US Cities that would love the prospect of getting millions of acres of water.

The real cost of such an effort is the energy to pump the water -- in some cases to higher elevations to get them to Western Destinations.

Of course, when the Dimwit Democrats and Obama flushed a trillion dollars down the toilet on the stimulus, they realized this, and projected for the future.

Oh, I forget, they are a bunch DIMWITS

Thinking in not their pay grade.

10 posted on 05/16/2011 1:30:18 PM PDT by topher (Traditional values -- especially family values -- are the values that time has proven them to work)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

No levees have failed. They are performing up to specs. They are holding back floodwaters.

The governments solution? Open them up and destroy massive areas of towns and farmlands, in the name of “safety.”

And you wonder how the same government can pass Obamacare in the name of providing medical care?

Easy - they only have one solution for anything that works.

Kill it.


11 posted on 05/16/2011 1:31:07 PM PDT by Talisker (When you find a turtle on top of a fence post, you can be damn sure it didn't get there on its own.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: balch3


"Ten thousand river commissions, with the mines of the world at their back, cannot tame that lawless stream, cannot curb it or confine it, cannot say to it, 'Go here,' or 'Go there,' and make it obey. These West Point engineers cannot succeed in caging the beast. They imagine that they can fetter and handcuff that river and boss him. They might as well bully the comets in their courses and undertake to make them behave, as try to bully the Mississippi into right and reasonable conduct."

-Mark Twain

12 posted on 05/16/2011 1:34:27 PM PDT by Emperor Palpatine (One of these days, Alice....one of these days.....POW!! Right in the kisser!!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Vigilanteman

There’s nothing wrong with what the reporter said. He doesn’t mean that only 100 acres will be flooded. He is simply stating that within 30 minutes 100 acres was flooded with a foot of water. Just showing the speed with which the flooding is taking place.


13 posted on 05/16/2011 1:34:55 PM PDT by Graneros ("Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Emperor Palpatine
"Why are small towns and farmers being sacrificed for new Orleans?"

They aren't. The headline and the story are totally bogus. There are few to no real farms in the area that will be flooded. There is indeed "land that is farmed", but it is farmed as "rental land" by large farmers whose "home farms" are NOT in the floodway. All the "small towns" are surrounded by what are called "ring levees", and are safe. There "are" a few subdivisions that have been developed outside those levees, but anybody who bought or built there knew up front what the dangers were.

This is virtually nothing to do with the "Chocolate City". This has to do with the Port of New Orleans and hundreds of industrial plants in and between Baton Rouge and New Orleans, including a large portion of the country's oil refining capability. If THAT floods, we'll ALL be damned sorry.

Personal note. I'm from the area. The Morganza Floodway and Old River structures were built when I was in elementary school, and I watched them being built. When it was first used in 1973, I was in college, and drove over the Morganza control structure several times on my way home for weekends (and hundreds, if not thousands of times, when it was "not" open). The head engineer of the project was a friend of the family, and he retired there.

14 posted on 05/16/2011 1:36:18 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: blackdog
Here in Memphis we’re getting snakes all over places they normally are not.

I thought they were all on the city council...........

15 posted on 05/16/2011 1:36:30 PM PDT by Red Badger (Jesus said there is no marriage in Heaven. That's why they call it Heaven............)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind; subterfuge; balch3; blackdog; Emperor Palpatine; jwparkerjr; Vigilanteman; ...
The water is going into the Atchafalaya Basin

This swamp is so large that it takes a 18+ mile stretch of Interstate 10 bridge just to cross part of it.

It can hold quite a bit of water, but homes in the swamp will be flooded...

16 posted on 05/16/2011 1:38:35 PM PDT by topher (Traditional values -- especially family values -- are the values that time has proven them to work)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Emperor Palpatine

The mayor of New Orleans is now Mary Landrieu’s brother Mitch. All in the family. Mitch and Mary’s dad Moon was the mayor in the 1980’s and 1990’s.


17 posted on 05/16/2011 1:40:29 PM PDT by topher (Traditional values -- especially family values -- are the values that time has proven them to work)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

God bless and protect everyone concerned. I’ll leave this one up to the people who know what they are doing and why.


18 posted on 05/16/2011 1:40:29 PM PDT by pallis
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: balch3

Sorry I annoyed you. Wasn’t necessarily commenting on this particular action being taken. It just seems like the federal government (taxpayer) is going to forever be responsible for protecting a well populated area that just happens to be under sea-level.

I read another article today about the planned flooding where someone said ‘Bush did nothing about NOLA/Katrina’ and that “neither president did,” whatever that meant.

When the place you live floods, one moves, I would think.


19 posted on 05/16/2011 1:40:39 PM PDT by subterfuge (BUILD MORE NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS NOW!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Talisker
"No levees have failed. They are performing up to specs. They are holding back floodwaters."

If the floodways were NOT opened, the levees WOULD fail. Period. And as a result, we would have a Depression like you would NOT believe.

"The governments solution? Open them up and destroy massive areas of towns and farmlands, in the name of “safety.”"

See post 14, and don't believe everything the media reports.

20 posted on 05/16/2011 1:41:03 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: topher
The mayor of New Orleans is now Mary Landrieu’s brother Mitch. All in the family. Mitch and Mary’s dad Moon was the mayor in the 1980’s and 1990’s.

Louisiana - Half under water, the other half under indictment.

21 posted on 05/16/2011 1:43:15 PM PDT by dfwgator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Emperor Palpatine
Those "West Point Engineers" have a pretty good track record so far. And we can always hire some engineers from Holland if they aren't enough. Their track record is pretty good as well.

I had occasion to be in Holland on a business trip. My hotel was pretty much "right next door" to one of the North Sea Levees. I thought the levees on the Lower Mississippi were impressive, but those pale by comparison to the Dutch structures.

22 posted on 05/16/2011 1:46:35 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: balch3

Those ring-levee towns are about to get an epic snake, alligator, and rat infestation. The animals will flee to the nearest dry land.

IMO, sleeping on the second floor with a gun would be recommended.


23 posted on 05/16/2011 1:47:12 PM PDT by tcrlaf (You can only lead a lib to the Truth, you can't make it think...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

Nothing more annoying than clicking on the video and the first ad is for the Kenyan.


24 posted on 05/16/2011 1:47:25 PM PDT by quantim (Victory is not relative, it is absolute.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Vigilanteman

It said 100 acres under a foot of water within 30 minutes. That’s just the beginning.


25 posted on 05/16/2011 1:51:22 PM PDT by swain_forkbeard (Rationality may not be sufficient, but it is necessary.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

Sorry white farmers. Time to move on with your cracker @rses.


26 posted on 05/16/2011 1:51:33 PM PDT by ichabod1 (Hail Mary Full of Grace, The Lord Is With Thee...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: subterfuge

No it’s not sacred but the media is trying to make this another Katrina when it is nowhere near that. For starters the spillway was designed for this and the people being flooded out know that they can be flooded if there is a need. The other main issue is that Cajuns are not the dependent class moochers from NOLA.

Most of the area being flooded is water. The flooding is not all bad in that the wetlands will be replenished as nature intended. This will help with the coastal erosion problems. When the waters recede the fishing will be real good.


27 posted on 05/16/2011 1:52:41 PM PDT by CajunConservative
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf
"Those ring-levee towns are about to get an epic snake, alligator, and rat infestation. The animals will flee to the nearest dry land."

I was there when the floodways were opened in 1973. Didn't happen. Besides, there are alligators, snakes, and rats there all the time anyway. People know how to handle them. In 1973, the major incursion was from black bears, which wanted as little to do with people as possible.

28 posted on 05/16/2011 1:54:07 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Wonder Warthog
but anybody who bought or built there knew up front what the dangers were.

Today it seems no one that knew or should have known lets that stop them from screaming and yelling and trying to change the rules ex post facto.

29 posted on 05/16/2011 2:04:29 PM PDT by ichabod1 (Hail Mary Full of Grace, The Lord Is With Thee...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

I used to work for FEMA and saw the Bonne Carre spillway opened in 1983. I thought THAT was impressive, this has to be an incredible sight!


30 posted on 05/16/2011 2:05:11 PM PDT by ALASKA (CHANGE'n it back !!!!!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

I used to work for FEMA and saw the Bonne Carre spillway opened in 1983. I thought THAT was impressive, this has to be an incredible sight!


31 posted on 05/16/2011 2:05:11 PM PDT by ALASKA (CHANGE'n it back !!!!!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
Typical Media, FUD it up, scare the sheeple.

The Morganza Spillway, a 3,900-foot (1,200 m) controlled spillway using a set of flood gates to control the volume of water entering the Morganza Floodway from the Mississippi River, consists of a concrete weir, two sluice gates, seventeen scour indicators, and 125 gated openings which can allow up to 600,000 cubic feet per second (17,000 m3/s) of water to be diverted from the Mississippi River into the Atchafalaya Basin during major floods. The project was completed in 1954.

600,000 cu. ft./second = approx 4.5 million gallons and is the maximum flow rate.
32 posted on 05/16/2011 2:07:01 PM PDT by PeaceBeWithYou (De Oppresso Liber! (50 million and counting in Afghanistan and Iraq))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: PeaceBeWithYou
"The Morganza Spillway, a 3,900-foot (1,200 m) controlled spillway using a set of flood gates to control the volume of water entering the Morganza Floodway from the Mississippi River, consists of a concrete weir, two sluice gates, seventeen scour indicators, and 125 gated openings which can allow up to 600,000 cubic feet per second (17,000 m3/s) of water to be diverted from the Mississippi River into the Atchafalaya Basin during major floods. The project was completed in 1954."

That's the "east" floodway. It has a backup that is about the same capacity....the "west" floodway. The difference between "east" and "west" is that the "east" has a formal control structure with gates. The "west" has what is called a "fuse plug levee", which will be BLOWN UP to divert the excess Mississippi flow (just like the one up in Missouri).

The "design flood" that the total floodway is designed to handle is 2X the 1927 flood. This high water is just about the same magnitude as the '27 one. So the system has PLENTY of design capacity available.

33 posted on 05/16/2011 2:18:20 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
Don't forget this.

The Louisiana Department of Natural Resources Office of Conservation estimates that 2,264 wells lie in that area and would be inundated if the Corps of Engineers carries out its plans. Those wells produce the equivalent of 19,278 barrels of oil per day—about 10% of the state's onshore production, the state agency estimated.

There are some 140 operators in the basin, including BP PLC, ConocoPhillips, Exxon Mobil Corp., Apache Corp., Devon Energy Corp., according to state data.

WSJ article

34 posted on 05/16/2011 2:24:20 PM PDT by jrushing (Anti-American-ProTerrorist-Coward-Fascist-Communist-Socialist-Democratic Party)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Emperor Palpatine
Why are small towns and farmers being sacrificed for new Orleans?

Because they lie in land that's been a designated floodway for 80+ years. They knew the risks.

35 posted on 05/16/2011 2:26:36 PM PDT by Romulus (The Traditional Latin Mass is the real Youth Mass)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Romulus
They knew the risks.

I say, "Let them crash!"

36 posted on 05/16/2011 2:27:45 PM PDT by dfwgator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Emperor Palpatine
Naawwww....couldn’t be that, I’m sure....

It isn't. There is Baton Rouge, Louisiana (ever heard of it?), plus over a dozen oil refineries, including two half a million barrel per day operations, one of which, Exxon-Mobil Baton Rouge, LA is the largest oil refinery in the US, and is where the cat-cracking (catylic cracking) method of refining oil in to gasoline was invented, creating more gasoline from a barrel of oil. This country would be in a world of hurt, (you included) if these refineries were flooded. Finally, this was not an easy decision to make. Days went by while this was being discussed, unlike the sneak night decision to blow up the levee upriver.

37 posted on 05/16/2011 2:34:37 PM PDT by sportutegrl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: subterfuge

You really have no clue about the strategic value of the ports of New Orleans and Baton Rouge, have you? You really have no idea how much of America’s oil refining is performed along this stretch of the river. Do you even know what’s at stake here — possible loss of the Mississippi River to a new channel — or do you just like to run your mouth?


38 posted on 05/16/2011 2:34:37 PM PDT by Romulus (The Traditional Latin Mass is the real Youth Mass)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Talisker

They are not destroying the land, it will dry out.


39 posted on 05/16/2011 2:55:14 PM PDT by IMR 4350
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Romulus

“Mouth-running” happens at FR incredibly often these days— and on more topics than this one.


40 posted on 05/16/2011 2:56:15 PM PDT by Clara Lou
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Wonder Warthog
This is a 21% release, that means about 26-30 gates will be opened or 125,000 cu. ft./sec. or about 1 million gallons/sec. ahead of the crest. A far cry from the impossible 12 million/sec. in the posted article.

The reason for doing so is to maintain control by reducing the crest which could erode the embankments before and after the spillway - which would cause more devastating flooding all at once, or require them to blow the plug to the east, like happened in Misery.

41 posted on 05/16/2011 2:59:26 PM PDT by PeaceBeWithYou (De Oppresso Liber! (50 million and counting in Afghanistan and Iraq))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: CajunConservative; Wonder Warthog

All your facts are spoiling perfectly good rants.


42 posted on 05/16/2011 4:10:20 PM PDT by Graybeard58 (Eccl 10:19 A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Graneros

by my math that is only 1.086 million gal/min far less then the 12 million gallons/second in the headline:

((100 acres x 43560 sf/ac x 1 ft deep)x 7.48 gal/cu. ft.) / 30 minutes


43 posted on 05/16/2011 4:28:12 PM PDT by shotgun
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: dfwgator

“Louisiana - Half under water, the other half under indictment.”

Ba da bing


44 posted on 05/16/2011 4:33:42 PM PDT by combat_boots (The Lion of Judah cometh. Hallelujah. Gloria Patri, Filio et Spiritui Sancto.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Graybeard58
"All your facts are spoiling perfectly good rants."

I think the "X-files" quote is "the truth is out there".

45 posted on 05/16/2011 4:48:21 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: Romulus
possible loss of the Mississippi River to a new channel

What do you mean by this? How can we lose the Mississippi? I'm curious. Illustrations would be nice if you have them. I grew up not far from the river.

46 posted on 05/16/2011 4:56:43 PM PDT by virgil
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: virgil
"What do you mean by this? How can we lose the Mississippi? I'm curious. Illustrations would be nice if you have them. I grew up not far from the river."

The part that would be "lost" would be the segment from the "Old River Control Structure" to New Orleans.

The reason is that the Atchafalaya River is deeper and provides a MUCH shorter path to the Gulf of Mexico. The Mississippi has been "wanting" to cut a channel from its existing bed to the Atchafalaya for decades. The reason the "Old River Control Structure" was built was to prevent that.

In the high water of 1973, the Mississippi almost undercut the then-existing control structure, and to protect that structure was the reason the Morganza Floodway was opened that year.

Since that time, the original control structure has been re-inforced, and supplemented by the "Low Sill Structure"...a separate additional control structure to provide more bypass capacity.

If the Mississippi "does" manage to switch beds, salt water will intrude back up the now "slack flow" current channel, and communities (and industries) that take their fresh water supplies from the river would have to be drastically re-designed, or abandoned.

Search term: "Old River Control Structure" will take you to lots of info.

47 posted on 05/16/2011 5:10:16 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: Wonder Warthog

Thanks for the explanation. It’s fascinating stuff. I knew that the Army CoEs spent a lot of effort trying to control the flooding along the river, but I never knew the river is threatening to do this. Incredible!


48 posted on 05/16/2011 6:39:40 PM PDT by virgil
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: subterfuge

“When the place you live floods, one moves, I would think.”

Which is largely what has happened - and why BR now has a larger population than NO, which is nowhere CLOSE to where it was pre-Katrina pop.-wise.


49 posted on 05/16/2011 6:41:11 PM PDT by JLLH
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: sportutegrl

Thank you for your intelligent post. The number of posters here who seem to believe that LA is just NOLA is astonishing. Geography lesson, anyone?


50 posted on 05/16/2011 6:42:36 PM PDT by JLLH
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-65 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson