Skip to comments.The Jose Guerena Raid: A Demonstration of Tactical Incompetence
Posted on 05/29/2011 7:28:27 AM PDT by marktwain
Helmet camera footage of the SWAT team raid on the home of Jose Guerena has been released.
Bob Owen noticed the same thing I did. One of the team members fell in the doorway upon breaching and entering the home. The video speaks for itself, but by way of summary, lets observe the following.
First, Mr. Guerenas weapon, contrary to initial accounts by the SWAT team, was never taken off of safety. The team took no shots from him. Second, the team mills around for a while before breaching the home. Third, they dont form into a stack. Fourth, absurdly, they knock and allow only four seconds for a response. Fifth, one of the members falls in the doorway. Sixth, upon shots being fired (by the SWAT team), more than one team member begins backing away from the incident. Seventh, one of the team members who initially backed away moves forward to fire shots over the heads of other team members who are in the home (its a wonder that SWAT team members didnt get shot by their own team). All the while, several team members are standing aimlessly outside the home, doing nothing. Then to top it all off, even though medical responders arrived within minutes, they werent allowed into the home for one hour and fourteen minutes.
The Sheriff may as well have sent the Keystone Cops to raid the home. These clowns shouldnt be allowed anywhere near weapons.
UPDATE: Thanks to Glenn Reynolds for the LINK.
UPDATE #2: So I asked a certain former Marine I know (combat tour of Fallujah in 2007) what he thought about this particular raid. Here are his thoughts. This would be hilarious if a man hadnt died in the process. Tactically speaking, their raid was foolish, and they are guilty of murder. So this SWAT team wanted to get some? Great. Go join the Marine Corps and deploy to a foreign country and fight insurgents. Youre supposed to be peace officers, to prevent things like this from happening. As it was, Mr. Guerena thought his home was being invaded, and so what would you do in this circumstance? Well, you go get a weapon and post up. You send rounds down range to protect your family. Mr. Guerena even had the good discipline not to do that. This whole incident was evil.
UPDATE #3: Ive had a chance to talk with my son about this some more, and a good summary of what this raid was like is to say that It looks like the Iraqi Army raiding a house. I had known that the ISF wasnt present during much of his time in Fallujah (most of the security forces were Marines and IPs), so I asked him, Why do you say that? Have you seen the Iraqi Army raiding a house? He said yes, and I responded by asking him what it looked like? He said It looks like that. Just like that. People falling all over each other, emptying their weapons, shooting at everything, and shooting at nothing.
In any case, it is a very short period of time. Not enough time for a reasonable person to respond to the door and ascertain that the people there are legitimate police, and not home invaders dressed as police.
Ironically, the police say that is what they were investigating: a home invasion gang that disguised themselves as police.
When Jared Loughner killed 6 people and wounded Representative Giffords (and a bunch of others) Sheriff Dipnik tried to blame conservative talk radio.
"When the rhetoric about hatred, about mistrust of government, about paranoia of how government operates, and to try to inflame the public on a daily basis, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, it has impact on people especially who are unbalanced personalities."
It sounds like there are more than a few "unbalanced personalities" in Dipnik's own department. But we are supposed to "trust government". I don't think so.
Did they put some kind of breaching charge on the door?
The guy with the rifle slung across his back who is walking away when the door is breached and then suddenly runs up to the door when the shooting starts and fires his pistol into the house is some crazy stuff.
The siren at the beginning of the raid sounds more like a car alarm going off.
The Sheriffs Dept initially reported some absurd amount of time like 30 minutes... I can’t imagine any cop muchless a SWAT team pounding on a door for 30 minutes...
These criminals were caught redhanded in a full blown cover up of a murder.
A murder committed under color of law after they created the circumstances which led to the gunfire.
This Marine was awaken by his hysterical wife telling him armed men were outside, less than 45 seconds later he was dead...
The cops the true idiots they are, think that a man (any man) can go from sleep, to thinking a home invasion is taking place, to oh its the cops and surrender/submit or be killed in less than 45 seconds...
All of these cops should be indicted, tried for murder then executed.
Why would the police be at his door?
Because his own family, as found evidence indicates, were part of a home invading drug gang.
So if not for his own family, he would be alive today.
BTW, if you know of criminal activity like home invading and drug dealing you are lawfully supposed to report such crimes. Except if you are the spouse, then I think that person is shielded from the law.
A rather twisted way of blaming the victim.
We will see what happens in a criminal trial. The police have very strong incentives (now that they killed someone) to cover-up, obfuscate, and throw wild accusations all over the place.
Assuming, for arguments sake, that his family was involved in criminal activity, that does not deprive him of equal protection under the law.
As terrible as this is, everyone should know by now that these monsters will never be held accountable for their crimes. At least not by us mere mortals.
However nothing in these videos shows that the police acted in a wrongful way.
I understand people are emotional but that doesn't mean the police did anything wrong. Even when one guy tripped and another broke open the door.
What evidence did they find? Nothing I’ve seen so far has been proven to be stolen. What am I missing?
I think the comments here have showed a lot of stuff these police did wrong. They plugged a guy full of holes when the guy’s gun was still safety-locked. How is that right in any way, shape, or form? They gave him no time to even realize who they were or what they were there for, much less surrender. Before giving him any time to surrender they plugged him full of holes. How is that right?
How is it right for them to claim that they knocked on the door for 30 minutes when some who have looked at the video have said it was actually 4 seconds?
Name me one thing the cops did right.
Jose Guerena, 26, his older brother, Alejandro Guerena, and Jose Celaya - a relative by marriage - were listed as suspects in an investigation of drug trafficking and home invasions, records show.
During a briefing before the warrants were served, records show, detectives told SWAT team members the two Guerena brothers and Celaya were associated with a double homicide related to a home invasion.
You are full of sh**. His family was KILLED by home invaders, they were not part of a gang. This guy, and his family, are/were innocent of any wrong doing. Only a total frickin fool, yes that means you, would think this was anything but another swat team cluster f***. They killed an innocent man and for you to try to spread rumors about his family is beyond contemptible.
Five SWAT were stacked enough to shoot him over 20 times.
What are we doing now? Taking out our measuring sticks to see how many inches apart they were?
well maybe someone in the police force was getting kick back from gangs and was making a point. might be good to investigate the person who ordered the raid.
They have no evidence. You have to realize that Berlin_Freeper is a total cop apologist. He has been on these threads constantly taking the side of the swat team since this sh** happened. Now he is making up sh** about the guys family being part of a home invasion gang. The best way to deal with the idiot is to ignore him. Of course I don't follow my own advice in that respect, he just pi**es me off to much.
There are any number of ways they could have peacefully apprehended the guy for questioning. A traffic stop might be one of them. They are out of control.
I am not the one replying to others observation's even though i don't agree with them.
The police are supposed to arrest the man. They are not the District Attorney, the Judge, nor the Jury, but they were by God the executioner.
The problem is that they were scared to death and acted thusly are the first incident or noise.
Has that been proven to be true? I thought he had family members that were killed by home invaders, I missed any report that his family were home invaders. I thought in homes of his relatives a bag of drugs and cash were found, how does that prove evidence of home invading?
As another Freeper has responded memmbers of Guerena’s family were victims of a home invasion.
BS, show me that law...
Pretty clearly Strategic Incompetence too there, Sheriff D.
They were “suspects” before the raid, and it was said they were “associated” with a home invasion where two people were killed- reports I have read say the “association” is that he was related to two people that were killed in a home invasion. What evidence was found that showed they were in fact doing home invasions?
So no evidence, but the private claims of detectives. I guess that’s due process and valid reason to shoot a guy full of holes without even giving him a chance to surrender.
In whose America? Not the America of the Constitution, that’s for darn sure.
The warrant was a search warrant, not an arrest warrant, nor a termination warrant.
The voters of Pima county have voted for
this jackwad Demoncrat for 30 years.
What do they expect from this Sheriff
who will not enforce Arizona State Law
“So if not for his own family, he would be alive today”
I’m assuming from your screen name you don’t live in the USA. We do or we are supposed to do things a little differently here. First you have the right to be safe from unwarranted search and seizure especially in your own home. The cops are not supposed to break down your door while you are asleep, shoot you 60 times, then withold medical attention to make sure you die so you can’t tell your story and then assault your wife and let your 4 year old child walk around in your blood. Thats Russia.
It doesn’t really matter who your family are.
SWAT was designed for handling out of control hostage situations and homicidal maniacs not no knock warrantless raids on people for low level crimes.
What should have ocurred here is in broad daylight two cops should have showed up at the door, knocked and informed Mr. Guerna that they had a warrant for his arrest and a search warrant for his house. Then they would handcuff him and take him down to the police station. Thats how its supposed to go down. Most people go peaceably when served with an arrest warrant. Especially for low level crime.
The Patriot Act thanks to GW Bush (who I foolishly voted for twice) is what has started all this no knock, no warrant harrassment of average citizens. Now the Congress has just extended these provisions for another 4 years. Even the so called conservative reps have voted for it.
What you are seeing occur on a more and more common basis is the govt tightening control and usurping American freedoms. My belief it that all of this is dress rehearsal for martial law and door to door gun confiscation.
Under Arizona law, the police have to wait a reasonable time for people to respond when serving a warrant.
It is very clear to me that the police did not wait a reasonable time in this case. They acted as if this were a "no knock" raid, except that they had to observe some proforma rules to make it legal because they did not have a no-knock warrant.
I believe that a jury will see the same thing that I saw while watching the video: It is completely unreasonable to expect that a homeowner could have got to the door and determined that it was a legitimate police service of a warrant in the time that the police allowed between the knock and the breaking down of the door.
This is a particularly strong point given that the police themselves say that they were investigating a home invasion gang that disguised themselves as police.
Knowing that, it is even more unreasonable to believe that they should not have taken more precautions to insure that the occupants of the house understood that they were legitimate police before they broke down the door.
The did not take those precautions, and a man died as a result.
What is quite disturbing to most people, is that they can see themselves acting exactly as Jose Guerena did, quite reasonably, and getting killed by the police for exercising their Constitutional rights.
Every cop who fired a shot should be prosecuted. Lots of cops out there with itchy trigger fingers.
Because the donut munching fake special operator posers f'd up and stormed the wrong house AGAIN. cause these poodles wanted to show off and shoot on full auto like SEAL TEAM 6. But they weren't man enough or tough enough to sack up and go through BUDs or even ITR in the marines.
now they can do their steroids, hang out at the gym, go to the range and tell each other what badasses they are. Maybe even impress some little skanks to give it up cause they're so tough.
remember the most important thing they do is "come home safely". Hahahahaha. Just ask the poor little fellas. They need to go pad their overtime , apply for their work related back injury and collect their golden retirement income and quit killing people that pay taxes.
So, my cousin marries some guy who is a “suspect” in a home invasion and that gives the cops the right to knock down my door and start shooting.
They’re admitting they had no reason to believe people at this address were guilty of anything. They should have knocked on the door, gave someone time to open it, then ask if they knew where their “relative” was.
No, these cops acted like puppy killers. Way too many cops on power trips.
They NEVER give anyone enough time to answer a door. That is standard MO now and has been for years. I am sitting now not 9 feet from my unlocked front door and I couldn’t get up and open it in 4 seconds.
By your bizarre logic, women is short dresses who get raped are asking for it.
The lengths that some freepers go to cover up for thuggish UNION cops baffle me.
Your logic is faulty, nothing the police did wrong..other than murdering a man in his own home...yea, other than that...oh, and then lying about him firing his weapon...and then more cover ups...but nothing other than that...
It also says the word “suspects”. Are you saying we actually have moved to “Judge Dread” methods of dealing with “suspects”.
Suspects who have not been charged or tried of crimes?
Cowards. All of them. And the sad thing is there is now a child with out a father for their cowardice.
They will toast each other and pass out decorations for the great brave deeds to which they have aspired and wait for the next opportunity to display their “manhood.”
God help us all that this is the freedom so many honorable, brave men have fought and died for over the past 2 centuries.
And not reporting crimes makes it OK for a bunch of clowns to kill you? The fact is that they found nothing illegal in this guys house. What would be wrong with simply stopping the guy on his way to work if you need to arrest him? Why do we have to have a SWAT team fire 70+ rounds in 10 seconds, including the clown who ran up and fired blindly after the shooting started? The answer is that many cops do not want to be peace officers anymore, they want to be Rambo. All involved here should be charged and people should go to jail for this murder. It is just lucky there were no dogs running around or the round count would have probably topped 200.
"listed as suspects in an investigation of drug trafficking and home invasions"
Now is as good as time as any to bring the subject of SWAT team tactics up with your mayors and town councilors. Grab a friend, make an appointment and go do it.
As America slips into Third World poverty our SWATs teams resemble more and more every day like death squads in Third World countries.
With our country’s descent into tyrannical police state the response by this SWAT team to a law-abiding man defending his home against the thugs with badges results in only one outcome - his execution.
Per the Feds and Napolitano any armed civilian who is a former member of the military are enemies of the State (aka domestic terrorists) and are treated as such. While the cops are immune from murdering our own civilians, members of our military are prosecuted for protecting themselves from civilians who are members of Muslim terrorist cells like Iraq and Afghanistan who are trying to kill them.
The Feds have gotten away with Waco, Ruby Ridge, and an untold number of other incidences in which the Feds and State have murdered them and will continue to do so. Written history has shown that the government always, yes, always, turns on its own people sooner or later.
What we have seen for the past 40+ years is the process of our government turning rabid and treating the law abiding citizens more and more as the criminal and enemy.
Most Americas would rather not bite the hand that feeds them via government handouts, welfare (individual and corporate), and subsidies which reaches around 60% (maybe higher) of the population in greater or lesser amounts.
Because of how power hungry and corrupt the heads of our nation are if the nation rose up with their firearms to try and stop their madness the Feds would more than likely take Lenin’s advice and eliminate up to 90 percent of the population if need be in order to achieve their goals.
The only way to change it is for those who care deeply about this country is to become actively involved in government starting at the most basic municipal levels and work our way up. The government is only as good as the people who are hired to run it.
Looking at this in a longer term manner, make sure you have as many children as you can afford and teach them, by example and intellectually, right from wrong, etiquette, manners, history, responsibility, and sacrifice, honor, duty, other topics that will help them develop their character, their competence, and their ability to communicate their ideas to others in an effective manner. Then encourage some of them to get involved in government to undo the problems we are facing.
Cite for me the specific law that carries a criminal punishment if I chose to not report any crime...
Then he wins because that is the goal of a troll.
Failure to Report a Crime: Why We Should Punish Bystanders
Since news of the gang rape of a 15 year old Richmond High School girl broke, one of the biggest questions has been about the guilt of the bystanders. News outlets reported that more than twenty people came to watch as the California girl was beaten and raped repeatedly by several boys for two and a half hours. CNN says that [some] witnesses took photos. Others laughed. Some of those who came over joined in the assault. None of them made any attempt to stop the crime or report it to police. It was only later when some witnesses were discussing the event that they were overheard by a citizen who did call the police who found the girl unconscious under a bench where she had been left. She was flown to a hospital, listed under critical condition, and remained there for days.
Despite the outrage felt by many, there is little chance of any criminal action against the bystanders. Crimes that result from a failure to act are rare. The most common such offenses result from a special relationship between the defendant and the victim (child neglect, for instance) or when the defendant is the one who put the victim in danger in the first place. State legislatures are free, however, to enact statutory duties with criminal penalties for a failure to act. For instance, California has a law that makes it a misdemeanor for anyone not to report a witnessed crime against a child under 14 (that law was prompted by the story of David Cash, which sparked national outrage). The unfortunate victim in this recent case was 15.
Kitty Genovese was 28 when she was murdered in an alley and became a symbol of the bystander effect. There are several psychological reasons why bystanders do nothing when they witness a violent crime. They may fear for themselves if they attempt to intervene or they may fear retaliation if they report the crime to police. The more bystanders are involved, the more diffused the responsibility is among the crowd, reducing the pull on any single person.
Any law that required witnesses to act would need to be narrowly framed because these kinds of laws involve a lot of questions about possible undesirable situations. How serious would the crime have to be to demand action? Would the person be forced to intervene or just to report the crime to police? Would the person need to witness the crime personally or just become aware of it? Would this require friends and neighbors to report each other? Such fears about broad are understandable.
Misprision of felony is an old common law tradition that makes it illegal not to report a witnessed felony. For various reasons, including the above suspicions, it has disappeared from most jurisdictions. This recent incident may lead legislatures to reexamine this kind of legislation, though. The national outrage over this incident demonstrates a societal desire to punish bystanders who do nothing. There is clearly a societal interest in protecting victims of violent crimes, and that interest easily outweighs the privacy interest of bystanders who need only pick up their phones to call police (instead of using them to take pictures). Furthermore, criminal penalties may provide enough incentive to overcome the bystander effect (or Genovese syndrome).
I am not a lawmaker, but the legislation I drafted below might be narrowly tailored enough to meet the societal interest without leading to the frightening possibilities:
Failure to Report a Crime
Section 1. Any person who reasonably believes that he or she has witnessed a crime identified in Section 2 below and fails to report the crime to a law enforcement officer as soon as reasonably possible commits a class A misdemeanor.
Section 2. This act shall apply to the following crimes: murder, manslaughter, rape, and aggravated assault when such assault involves a firearm.
Section 3. This act shall not apply if the perpetrator of the crime is an immediate family member of the witness.
Section 4. Nothing in this act shall be construed as to impose a duty to intervene to stop the crime or to perform any action that puts the witness in immediate physical danger.
As you can see from this article I just posted the only law the author can find is the California law that makes it a misdemeanor for anyone not to report a witnessed crime against a child under 14...
He then advocates that we pass such laws that will punish bystanders for failure to report...
You and him are advocating a return to the days of Germany’s Night and Fog Decree...
Both of you are idiots asking for us to embrace nazi and Communist style laws for reasons that make no sense, but then again you make little sense and as you can see from the overwhelming response to your posts here you hold a very minority opinion.
Go pedal your Nazi/Gestapo we dream of law enforcement elsewhere...
So if it turns out he was not guilty of crimes that brought the police to his house, then his family - where there was evidence of criminal activity (stolen car, drugs in the oven and I believe illegal weapons) are the ones to blame for the police being there.
That still doesn't mean the police acted wrong, either way.
BTW, I am an American. Lived over thirty years in the USA and am currently living in Germany. I donate to this site. I vote Republican and I consider myself a Christian Conservative who has respect for our Armed Forces and law Enforcement. I included this because you brought it up.
Which seems to be happening more and more these days.
And good luck in a civil suit because you are going to need it since the standards of proof are lower.