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'Baby' Pilot at Controls of Doomed Air France Airbus
The Australian ^ | May 29, 2011 | Chris Ayres

Posted on 05/29/2011 12:42:16 PM PDT by lbryce

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To: spodefly

Agreed.


51 posted on 05/29/2011 3:40:50 PM PDT by bootless (Never Forget. Never Again. (PursuingLiberty.com))
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To: lbryce

Doesn’t this 200 million dollar airliner have a GPS that could have given them their speed? My $100 Tom Tom can do that.


52 posted on 05/29/2011 3:51:57 PM PDT by Hacklehead (Liberalism is the art of taking what works, breaking it, and then blaming conservatives.)
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To: Don Corleone
Maybe because they did not understand what was happening?

Keep in mind why the AP and AT disconnected; that was due to unreliable speed indications. Established procedures requires pitch / thrust config. Also, notice from the report that the plane entered a slight bank (which would entice an amount of sideslip). So counteracting the roll with additional pitch up would seem plausible.

Who knows what conclusion he (they) reached, but it apparently was not "we are stalling". It may have been - we need Pitch & power, followed by "we are not stalled, we are diving." I'm not about to second guess the pilots actions based on the little information we have now.

However, one should keep in mind that flight testing of the A330/A340 in a very controlled environment, and clean, they do not exhibit any undesirable characteristics. To those flying light aircraft it is very much like a clean stall on a Piper PA28. With the addition of flap, they do exhibit a dynamic Q break.

Military fighter craft when in full stall with alfa > 45° exhibit a sensation that is markedly different than what is encountered at stall onset in a typical traning situation (e.g., alfa around 15-20°) and leave it pretty immediately.

There is a pretty stable ride, the aircraft is loose in roll but there is less buffeting then when at stall onset, it can be pretty disorientating especially if it is dark. The sinkrate is extreme, one needs to be very consitent and persistent to get out of it.

One thing worthy of speculation: what kind of pitch authority would the A/C have if there was significant tailplane icing? If the pitots are implicated as having experienced some manner of icing, what implications does that have with regards to the tailplane specifically, and more generally with respect to airfoil generated lift?

My understanding that a stalled airfoil continues to generate significant lift; put your hand out the window - palm down - at 45o while traveling 80 MPH down the highway (what happens?). Problem is that drag beceomes scuh a significant that forward velocity is greatly eroded.

53 posted on 05/29/2011 4:26:30 PM PDT by raygun
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To: All

The new procedure is designed to cover all stall conditions. It recognises that recovering the angle of attack might instead require a reduction of thrust, to regain pitch-down authority, as well as a loss of altitude.
It removes the need to prioritise take-off/go-around thrust in favour of restoring lift to the wing by reducing angle of attack. The procedure also points out that thrust should be re-applied smoothly, particularly because aircraft with under-wing engines have a tendency to pitch up, increasing the angle of attack, when power is applied.


54 posted on 05/29/2011 4:42:00 PM PDT by Flavius (What hopes for victory, Gaius Crastinus? What grounds for encouragement ?)
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To: raygun

Not an expert but with at least 10 of the icing incidents known would not this situation found it’s way into flight simulators. ?


55 posted on 05/29/2011 5:05:58 PM PDT by UB355 (Slower traffic keep right)
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To: raygun

Not an expert but with at least 10 of the icing incidents known would not this situation found it’s way into flight simulators. ?


56 posted on 05/29/2011 5:06:19 PM PDT by UB355 (Slower traffic keep right)
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To: al baby
Odd ...just so odd...

too much simulator time, too much “always trust and fly your instruments” hammer in to this guy...for a pilot to hold his nose up to stall for 38,000 ft to his death because a ice over pitot tube giving a bad reading?....

head lock...

The sad thing is if the pilot just let go of the controls the aircraft would have probably done a better job on recovering then the pilot did

57 posted on 05/29/2011 6:54:11 PM PDT by tophat9000 (Global Warming, undeniable truth; Obama, infallible genius; Apple perfect, invented everything)
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To: Oldpuppymax
Look, I only flew little planes

Stopped reading right there.

58 posted on 05/29/2011 7:11:02 PM PDT by SeeSac
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To: bootless
As to what happened with this particular flight, that’s another thing altogether, but their representation of the co-pilot’s qualifications should have been left on the cutting room floor.

Obviously you have never flown with an ex-Military jet pilot.

59 posted on 05/29/2011 7:12:35 PM PDT by SeeSac
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To: WaterBoard
Tens of thousands of aircraft fly at this altitude daily and their pitot tubes don’t freeze. In fact, most commercial passenger aircraft have heated tubes to rule out single point failure including this one.

Please google and do some research on the freezing problems these pitot tubes had particularly under these type of conditions and then come back and act informed.

60 posted on 05/29/2011 7:15:41 PM PDT by SeeSac
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To: tophat9000
I believe that to be true in a general sense in that the tail plane generates by default pitch down moment. In general the tailplane should stall long after the wings do, so all things being equal the plane should ultimately pitch down if controls are neutral.

That notwithstanding, it does not explain the continual pitch up input. Neither by Second Officer (PF), nor by First Officer (PM) when he assumed control.

Which incidentally, disciplined CRM would require the FO requesting control, the SO annunciating relinquishment of control, and the FO acknowleging they have control.

I was in a situation where the captain would not take control until I informed him he had control. Prior to that he was screaming at me to let go of the controls (which I did). Then he repeatedly asked for control. When I said, "I let go. I don't have control." He stated, "You, must give me control." "you have control." "I have control."

61 posted on 05/29/2011 7:41:02 PM PDT by raygun
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To: SeeSac

Right, and tell me how 10,000 plus daily flights with millions of miles are not falling out of the sky with the same type of pitot tubes.

Its not a manufacturing problem but a pilot problem.


62 posted on 05/29/2011 8:19:47 PM PDT by WaterBoard
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To: SeeSac; WaterBoard
Say what? Did you not read post #36 on this thread? Who's misinformed?
63 posted on 05/29/2011 9:25:41 PM PDT by raygun
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To: SeeSac

:-) I understand what you’re saying. My late father was a long-time United captain. He told me all about the good, bad and the ugly.

I’m just saying that they all but characterized the co-pilot as a pre-solo student pilot.


64 posted on 05/29/2011 10:59:50 PM PDT by bootless (Never Forget. Never Again. (PursuingLiberty.com))
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To: expatpat

“If the pilot was getting high airspeed readings from the computers,”

I believe there are 3 air data computers on this aircraft and multiple pitot tubes and AOA vanes. If the ADCs don’t agree there would be a CAS message for ADC miscompare. I think there would be an overspeed warning. Did the auto throttle disengage with the over speed?

It is being presented as complete failure of the air data system. I have been in flight test for 30 years and have never heard of catastrophic failure of the air data system. something else is going on here.

regards

dozer


65 posted on 05/30/2011 1:14:22 AM PDT by dozer7 (Love many, trust few and always paddle your own canoe)
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To: raygun

In February 2009, at the request of Airbus, Thales carried out a comparative study of the behavior in icing conditions at high altitude of the two standards, C16195AA and C16195BA. This study concluded that the C16195BA standard performed better, without however it being possible to reproduce on the ground all the conditions that could be encountered in reality.

Preliminary results of additional wind tunnel testing conducted with the C16195BA probe during August 2009 are consistent with the qualification data of the probe and have not identified any safety issue regarding the probe behaviour within the icing envelope as defined in Appendix C of EASA Certification Specification (CS) 25.

Science can’t reproduce the problem.


66 posted on 05/30/2011 4:45:20 AM PDT by WaterBoard
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To: dozer7
It is being presented as complete failure of the air data system.

I do not agree. I think the report makes clear that the data was conflicting.

67 posted on 05/30/2011 5:16:53 AM PDT by Erik Latranyi (Too many conservatives urge retreat when the war of politics doesn't go their way.)
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To: dozer7

IIRC, there were multiple warnings of miscompare. The triple redundancy is OK if there is only one bad sensor or computer, and the FCS will vote out the bad result (assuming the voter is not the malfunction). However, two bad components and the triple redundancy is insufficient — you need quad redundancy.


68 posted on 05/30/2011 6:27:53 AM PDT by expatpat
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To: lbryce
May I ask a question: Why are we assuming that the French are telling the truth about what their investigators've found?

Just askin'.....

69 posted on 05/30/2011 6:30:19 AM PDT by mewzilla
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To: Erik Latranyi

The FCS is TMR and designed to deal successfully with a (emphasis on ‘a’) conflict. The fact that the end-result data produced by the air-data/computers was not dealt with successfully proves its failure. There may well have been 2 faults in the ADS, which the TMR used in the Airbus would choke on.


70 posted on 05/30/2011 6:37:55 AM PDT by expatpat
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To: expatpat
I recall seeing a diagram of the flight profile after the accident....

it shows that thee is only something like a 50mph area of stability at 35,000 ft...and the aircraft went up to 38,000 ft....so its into unstable flight conditions where there isn't enough air density to sustain correct lift.

71 posted on 05/30/2011 7:05:29 AM PDT by spokeshave (Obamas approval ratings are so low, Kenyans are accusing him of being born in the USA.)
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To: spokeshave

Yeah, that must be it given the AB330’s 41700’ service cieling.


72 posted on 05/30/2011 9:59:22 AM PDT by raygun
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To: WaterBoard

It would seem that its a supernatural problem then.

And either AB or AF developed procedures to address the problems encountered on various flights with respecting unreliable airspeed.

All three of the pilots went through the required certification training in sim post Dec 2008. The most recent sim training was performed by one of the AF447 pilots was Feb 2009. They were ready, willing, able, prepared and alert for all contingencies on that fateful day.


73 posted on 05/30/2011 10:30:27 AM PDT by raygun
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