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Not born this way: The facts, plus help available
Save California ^ | Various authors

Posted on 06/05/2011 7:48:09 AM PDT by scripter

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To: alice_in_bubbaland
They are also human beings and should not be harassed or mistreated.

And if they quietly live their lives they probably won't be. The "love that dare not speak its name" has become the love that won't shut the heck up.

A lip smacking invitation or a hand groping my crotch will get a response, just not the one they are hoping for.

51 posted on 06/05/2011 9:51:41 AM PDT by JimRed (Excising a cancer before it kills us waters the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS, NOW AND FOREVER!)
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To: scripter

I'm just as God made me, sir.

52 posted on 06/05/2011 9:55:26 AM PDT by Oratam
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To: blueunicorn6
If something going wrong in the uterus is causing homosexuality, would the homosexuals want it fixed?

No, they'd want it increased (more fresh meat!).

53 posted on 06/05/2011 9:56:31 AM PDT by JimRed (Excising a cancer before it kills us waters the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS, NOW AND FOREVER!)
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To: StolarStorm

“...Lots of kids are hitting puberty earlier now then they used to. Lots of factors involved with that I’m sure. But I agree something is wrong. Maybe lack of exercise, hormones in the water supply, sexual exposure at a younger age via the media, ... perhaps all of these factors. And yes, Autism and autism spectrum disorder have significantly increased. They’ve ruled out vaccines as a cause, but something is going on...”

My personal theory (with nothing to back it up, just a gut feeling) is the amount of hormones fed to cattle, chickens, etc. I have a hunch these are in our food chain, causing early onset puberty, among other effects.

Recently, an 8 y/o girl presented in our ER with asthma. Though only 8, she had nearly fully developed breasts. Our ER doctor (a woman) was stunned. The staff had an interesting discussion. Seems we are seeing more and more of these changes in our youth. Something is definitely happening to our kids.


54 posted on 06/05/2011 10:01:12 AM PDT by Islander7 (There is no septic system so vile, so filthy, the left won't drink from to further their agenda)
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To: swatbuznik

Joseph Nicolosi, a prominent psychologist, has studied the causes of homosexuality in depth for many years and believes it is caused primarily by the failure of the child to bond to its same-sex parent and thus, fully developed its psychological identity as a male. There are a number of other psychologists and psychiatrists who support this view and who also believe some homosexuals can overtime this gender identity problem, especially the sooner they enter therapy.


55 posted on 06/05/2011 10:53:43 AM PDT by WashingtonSource
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To: Islander7
The changes have been going on for a while yet no one will own up to them. Just like the controversial view that cell phones cause cancer. Studies in Europe have shown they do increase the chance of getting cancer, yet our corporate funded studies here in the states do not. An increase in brain cancers starting on the side of the head (and following a specific pattern) that people use their cell phones on is occurring.

It's just amazing that what many many people see first hand, is dismissed by our research institutions and health agencies. But then, smoking as a cause of cancer was debated for many years. And recently, it was discovered that fructose does indeed fuel cancer (the high fructose syrup controversy).

That's why I don't dismiss "anecdotal" evidence and common man views. People are cognizant of their bodies and what effects them, and should not be dismissed just because a study hasn't YET proven that they have a valid view. In the end I think it will be found that certain gene pools ARE effected by certain environmental pollutants while others are not. So, one size fits all studies do not show the whole truth.
56 posted on 06/05/2011 11:13:13 AM PDT by StolarStorm
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To: scripter

I’ve bookmarked it and later when I have time will pore over it.

Many thanks.


57 posted on 06/05/2011 11:56:10 AM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: StolarStorm; Yaelle

Well, I’m gay (though I appreciate the warning, Yaelle). I joined FR years ago because I though my perspective might add a valued perspective to discussions of this topic. I quickly learned that I was mistaken, and I no longer post here because any opinion I might express on this subject of obvious interest to me would result in a quick zot.

But since you asked, I (a man) can report that, though I appreciate the beauty of women, I have never been sexually attracted to them. I was aware — long before puberty — that I preferred the looks of a handsome man to those of an attractive woman. I am not, to my knowledge, recognizably effeminate. I have always enjoyed a good and close relationship to both my parents — neither distant nor overbearing. I have never been molested, nor was I ever “recrutited.” I have been happily (and legally) married to a man for many years. So there’s your anecdotal evidence, which you may take or leave.


58 posted on 06/05/2011 12:29:35 PM PDT by Fethiye
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To: StolarStorm
The only thing I don't care for with regard to gay people is the seeming need to throw it in people's faces (gay pride parades and so forth). Heteros don't seem to feel the need to hold parades and hetero days at Disney world. If they want equality they need to expect equality... meaning no special treatment and no need for excessive public displays.

I agree. And the gay agenda, pushing things into the faces of others, pushing school curricula, is all wrong. Bullying, for instance, should not be permitted no matter what the reason for the bullying.

I think kids who seem gender-different should be treated as fairly and neither they nor their parents should be seen to be "at fault" as kids and parents dealing with ANY disability. Autism is now known NOT to be the mom's fault. Neither is having a child who prefers toys and colors for the opposite sex. That's just an innocent child and should not be hit over the head morally because of what they like to do. (And I know some parents are freakin' nuts like the ones who won't tell anyone what gender their child is - stupid. But parents have to be free to parent as they wish unless it breaks laws -- we want to parent OUR way so liberal weenies should be allowed to parent their way too.)

59 posted on 06/05/2011 12:29:44 PM PDT by Yaelle
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy

Great post. The problem is so many don’t understand what it means and trying to make it more simple usually results in further misunderstandings. Many just can’t move past their bias.


60 posted on 06/05/2011 2:04:48 PM PDT by scripter ("You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." - C.S. Lewis)
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To: StolarStorm
This really is a complex subject that is replete with invalid and misrepresented data, very much like the entire global warming scam only more PC.

There is a very small percentage who choose their same-sex attraction and there is a website created for this group (http://queerbychoice.com.

From my own studies I'd say the rest are confused.

If you read everything I've read you'd know there isn't a single credible scientist who believes homosexuals are born with their same sex attraction, and those same credible scientists will tell you environment is a major factor in determining sexuality.

That's just the way it is. Many (even here at FR) will insist homosexuals are born that way but there is still no evidence to support that claim and a growing body of evidence, former homosexuals, that throw a wrench into the mix.

61 posted on 06/05/2011 4:41:26 PM PDT by scripter ("You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." - C.S. Lewis)
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To: Yaelle

Agree. My son shares some traits of those I knew as a kid that ended up gay so I do pay attention to this topic. He has not been raised in an atypical way. If he is, so what. My love for him would not change one iota... and really why should it? I don’t understand people who turn their backs on loved ones because of a difference. We all are different in some way.


62 posted on 06/05/2011 5:36:38 PM PDT by StolarStorm
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To: Fethiye
Thanks for your input. It pretty much fits with what I've heard from others. If it was a "choice" I would expect that at some early point in life attraction to women would exist.

Perhaps science hasn't determined a causative factor for the difference in preference, but science also hasn't proved the existence of a soul, how gravity really works (particles or waves), and other countless areas of interest.
63 posted on 06/05/2011 5:44:06 PM PDT by StolarStorm
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To: StolarStorm
What you should do is read credible source material.

Homosexuals have been saying for decades they are born that way and as I said above there is still no science to support this idea. What I didn't mention is that the same credible scientists, some of them homosexual, have said they don't believe any evidence will ever be found supporting the born that way theory. How can they make that claim? Well, they know environment plays a major factor in determining our sexuality and there is a growing former homosexual population.

Even adamant gay advocates who used to say homosexuals are born that way have looked at the evidence and changed their minds.

What's stopping everybody else from honestly looking at the evidence? The answer to that question will be slightly different for everybody, but it will help to shed more light on the subject.

64 posted on 06/05/2011 6:00:30 PM PDT by scripter ("You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." - C.S. Lewis)
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To: little jeremiah

There is definitely some good material in the article. What’s sad is no matter how much credible information you put before some people, they can’t see through their bias.


65 posted on 06/05/2011 6:03:27 PM PDT by scripter ("You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." - C.S. Lewis)
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To: WashingtonSource

I spoke with Nicolosi a couple of years ago to get his side of a story. He’s a good guy who is often misrepresented by the media.


66 posted on 06/05/2011 6:08:59 PM PDT by scripter ("You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." - C.S. Lewis)
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To: scripter
Unfortunately, bias goes both ways. For example, there is monumental, credible and ironclad scientific evidence that the earth is several billion years old, yet we still have people who insist it is several thousand years old.

And you may disagree with that as well.... so what one may consider as credible evidence, another may not.

But, like I said earlier, I'm not an expert in this area of science. But it doesn't matter all that much to me. If it turns out to be a choice versus being a born trait, it doesn't change the fact that people deserve to be treated with respect.

You seem to be looking at this in a reasonable and scientific way, so that isn't a comment on your views, but rather others who can't seem to understand that it is up to an individual to follow the path they walk. I'd rather worry about radical Muslim terrorists than some dude marrying another dude. At least they leave more women for the rest of us (joking).
67 posted on 06/05/2011 6:18:55 PM PDT by StolarStorm
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To: scripter; 185JHP; 230FMJ; AKA Elena; Albion Wilde; Aleighanne; Alexander Rubin; Amos the Prophet; ..
Moral Absolutes Ping!

Freepmail wagglebee to subscribe or unsubscribe from the moral absolutes ping list.

FreeRepublic moral absolutes keyword search
[ Add keyword moral absolutes to flag FR articles to this ping list ]

I'm pinging this out to the Moral Absolutes list even though it's a Homosexual Agenda topic because it is a mine of information on the topic. It should be bookmarked and read by anyone who wants to know more about the causes of homosexuality. The entire foundation of homosexuals being a protected class is the myth that they are "born that way and cannot change". But it is not true, no matter how many people are emotionally attached to the myth - even right here on this thread.

Another point is the other myth (or straw man) that homosexuality is either genetic or "chosen". Most homosexuals have not consciously chosen to be attracted to the same sex. Obviously any sex act is voluntary. But most do not choose to be attracted to the same sex.

The truth is that homosexuality has psychological causes, and the majority of homosexuals were molested (which can and does include seduction) at a young age by older homosexuals.

And if anyone thinks there is no problem with homosexuals and anyone opposed to the agenda is a mean hater - the problem is not individuals doing whatever they do behind closed doors. The real problem is that the homosexual agenda is busily destroying our freedoms of speech, association and religion, and indoctrinating children all over the US. The agenda is the problem, and this affects everyone.

68 posted on 06/05/2011 8:17:23 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: StolarStorm
Bias definitely goes both ways, no doubt about it.

Last Thursday I taught my last class on radioactivity, in which we discussed isotopes, unstable nuclei, decay along with assumptions in alpha, beta and gamma decay. Assumptions are okay in science as long as they're accurate. But to state monumental, credible and ironclad scientific evidence exists here tells me something.

I have no idea how old the earth is and won't tell you it's one age over another. Furthermore, I think anybody who pushes one age over another is pushing assumptions more than anything else.

it doesn't change the fact that people deserve to be treated with respect.

I don't think anybody would argue with you here. Just because people disagree on this issue in no way implies homosexuals are not treated with respect.

I'd rather worry about radical Muslim terrorists than some dude marrying another dude.

Back to the subject... multitasking is easy enough. I can lecture on AGW (Anthropogenic Global Warming), what the Quran says about infidels, Muslim terrorists, homosexuality, the serious health hazards of the homosexual life, AIDS and HIV with a myriad of data from the CDC, Calvinism vs. Armininism (and everything in between the two,) and more. Multitasking is easy enough.

Here we're talking about homosexuality and we can also discuss its effects on society. AIDS appears to be discriminatory. That is, AIDS is much more prevalent in a certain segment of society and that segment is MSM (Men who have Sex with Men). That should bother most people with a hint of compassion.

We have schools pushing homosexuality as normal and something congenital. In this context homosexuality refers to those who have same-sex attraction—I'm not referring to the behaviour (acting on that attraction).

Some schools hand out x-rated material to children and school events where a speaker discusses homosexuality in which parents are not allowed to opt their children out. Some of the material is very graphic. The same schools refuse to allow former homosexuals to talk with the children.

There is so much more. We have scientists, some of whom are homosexual, admitting environment is a major factor in determining our sexuality. Environment isn't a minor factor, it's a major factor. This needs to be discussed far and wide, not ignored, squelched, suppressed or labeled hate speech, yet that is exactly what is happening.

69 posted on 06/05/2011 8:50:51 PM PDT by scripter ("You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." - C.S. Lewis)
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To: scripter
Here's another gem that should get the attention of those who believe homosexual are born that way:

Historic Gay Advocate Now Believes Change is Possible

70 posted on 06/05/2011 9:02:28 PM PDT by scripter ("You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." - C.S. Lewis)
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To: scripter
How Might Homosexuality Develop? Putting the Pieces Together
71 posted on 06/05/2011 9:27:47 PM PDT by scripter ("You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." - C.S. Lewis)
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To: scripter
Schools to kids: You can be boys or girls or both
72 posted on 06/05/2011 9:57:24 PM PDT by scripter ("You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." - C.S. Lewis)
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To: StolarStorm

Yes, I agree. I know a few boys and one girl who act very much like the opposite sex. They play like the opposite sex, and the little girl even dresses and wears her hair short like a boy. They have good parents and were raised the same as their more gender typical siblings,


73 posted on 06/05/2011 10:56:31 PM PDT by Yaelle
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To: little jeremiah

My own two cents on homosexuality?

If one argues that homosexuality is OK simply because some people are tempted to engage in it, then there’s no reason to restrict any form of consenting sexual behavior. Gay marriage, for example, is as hypocritical as normal, heterosexual marriage, because the idea that marriage must be limited only to two people is an entirely arbitrary one. Even pedophiles claim they can’t help their attraction to minors. Does the fact that an attraction exists make it OK? I don’t think so.

Morality concerns aside, homosexuality is dysfunctional. That is not disputable. Even though it occurs in nature, it’s non-viable, unable to reproduce. It is dishonest and irrational to say homosexual marriage is on par with heterosexual marriage. It is scientifically, undeniably not equal.

As far as temptations go, I’m tempted by women who are not my wife. That doesn’t mean it’s healthy or morally wise to act on those temptations. I’m not an animal. I aspire to be more, and society at large is helped when I restrain my urges.

Why are my thoughts considered so hateful and wrong these days? I don’t know.


74 posted on 06/06/2011 6:08:03 AM PDT by CitizenUSA (Coming soon...DADT for Christians!)
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To: alice_in_bubbaland
I think so too. I venture that only 5% are “born that way” and the rest are either mentally ill or imprinted.

You are 95% correct. Homosexuality (in all cases) is a mental illness caused by environmental trauma (of some sort). Fortunately it is curable for the motivated patient. There are tens of thousands of ex homosexuals.

75 posted on 06/06/2011 8:50:08 AM PDT by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

I saw a really interesting episode of a news magazine show, can’t remember if it was was Dateline, 20/20, 48 Hours....at an rate it was about a this forensic psychiatrist that spent his life’s work studying the brains of serial killers, and he found that there was a physcial difference in the brains of these people. Cat scans compared to a normal human brain showed that the frontal lobe of this men had significantly reduced activity. Which makes sense, given that the frontal lobe is believed to regulate impulsiveness.

In all the years of his studying cat scans, he had never had one himself. One day on a lark, he decided to due a scan of his own brain...and found that his brain looked like the brains he had been studying all these years, he had significantly reduced neural activity in the frontal lobe. This guy was happily married, had kids, lots of friends and was described by all as being a loving father and husband who NEVER exhibited a temper.

His conclusion was that he was lucky that he had grown up in a stable home, with a loving mother and father. While he may have been physically more pre-disposed to violence and anger, his nurturing environment had directed him to become the successful man that he was. If, however, he had grown up in a physically, sexually, or emotionally abusive environment, he had to live with the conclusion that he would have been a very different person.

I believe that homosexuality may be like this. You might have certain physical attributes that might predispose someone to same sex attraction if they are introduced to the right cocktail of stresses or abuse. I have an aunt that is a lesbian, and her journey started with sexual abuse by an uncle, stays in the state mental hospital, a forced marriage to an abusive man....it goes on and on. She has led a difficult. I can’t help but think her life would have been drastically different has she not suffered as she did.


76 posted on 06/06/2011 8:57:46 AM PDT by Juana la Loca
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To: John O
I think so too. I venture that only 5% are “born that way” and the rest are either mentally ill or imprinted.

NONE are born that way. It is a behavior. With enough 110 volts shocks, any rat or human can be cured of this behavior. It is called aversion therapy. B.F Skinner wasn't all wrong.
77 posted on 06/06/2011 9:02:02 AM PDT by PeterPrinciple ( getting closer to the truth.................)
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To: PeterPrinciple

I don’t know if you’re kidding or not. Aversion therapy by electro-shock isn’t used, or certainly isn’t used by any reputable doctor or organization that helps homosexuals deal with their unwanted same-sex attraction.


78 posted on 06/06/2011 9:43:17 AM PDT by scripter ("You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." - C.S. Lewis)
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To: scripter

I didn’t say it was wise or moral but that you could. That is where BF got in trouble and all his research tossed aside. My point is that it is a behaviour. Behaviours are complex but they can be modified. Homosexuality by definition is a behaviour.


79 posted on 06/06/2011 9:50:53 AM PDT by PeterPrinciple ( getting closer to the truth.................)
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To: PeterPrinciple
Thanks for the clarification.

Just FYI: Sometimes I use the word homosexuality in reference to same-sex sex and sometimes to same-sex attraction, so I always try to make it clear to which I'm referring.

Engaging in same-sex sex is most definitely a behavior, and yes, behaviors are complex especially in reference to sexuality.

80 posted on 06/06/2011 10:26:45 AM PDT by scripter ("You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." - C.S. Lewis)
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To: StolarStorm
There have to be some gay freepers around.

There are also ex-gay freepers here.

81 posted on 06/06/2011 7:50:41 PM PDT by scripter ("You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." - C.S. Lewis)
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To: hellbender

I think most of us have seen those whom you describe. We’ve seen effeminate heterosexuals who outnumber effeminate homosexuals and quite a few groups. What we do see in study after study is that environment is always the largest factor in determining our sexuality.


82 posted on 06/06/2011 8:01:58 PM PDT by scripter ("You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." - C.S. Lewis)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
I've read about all I can find on the 1972 study you cited. Unfortunately nobody cites the text of the study. Even if the study supported the born that way theory, if that's all the evidence available, it's nearly worthless especially considering the twins studies and the other posts on this thread in regards to rats.
83 posted on 06/06/2011 8:17:20 PM PDT by scripter ("You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." - C.S. Lewis)
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To: scripter

http://oodegr.com/english/psyxotherap/crazy_john2.htm


84 posted on 06/09/2011 1:46:07 PM PDT by Honorary Serb (Kosovo is Serbia! Free Srpska! Abolish ICTY!)
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To: DJ MacWoW

Here it be! Resources for “not born that way”!


85 posted on 06/12/2011 4:12:01 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: little jeremiah

Thanks you!


86 posted on 06/12/2011 4:13:08 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are at your door! How will you answer the knock?)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
I completely agree. I have always believed that some were in fact “born gay”, and others who were affected by certain circumstances or their environment.
87 posted on 06/12/2011 4:18:36 PM PDT by kara37
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To: kara37

Beliefs are not necessarily fact. Did you read the artlce? The links?

It’s not even debatable any more.


88 posted on 06/28/2011 1:07:55 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: little jeremiah
Beliefs are not necessarily fact. Did you read the artlce? The links? It’s not even debatable any more.

*************************************************

Then, why are you trying to debate me?

89 posted on 06/28/2011 1:52:14 PM PDT by kara37
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To: kara37

I’m giving you the opportunity to learn something.

Encouraging you to read and learn.


90 posted on 06/28/2011 2:01:02 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: Yaelle

I believe most studies of homosexuality is carried out by homosexuals, since they are the only ones interested in why, so their research should be considered suspect.


91 posted on 07/01/2011 8:18:13 PM PDT by itsahoot (I Stand with Sarah Palin)
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To: itsahoot

Wanting to make it look as normal as apple pie would be only one reason for asking “why.” It used to also be of great interest among normal mental health professionals who got patients who were “gay” but unhappy with the situation and were looking for a way to kick the habit. (And in some sense it still is of interest, but no longer in the mental health mainstream.) “Why” is a combination of nature, nurture, and mysterious soul.


92 posted on 07/01/2011 8:27:37 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Hawk)
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To: scripter

Bump for a mine of information about the actual causes of homosexuality and the possibility of change.


93 posted on 08/13/2011 10:57:47 AM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: Oratam
I'm just as God made me, sir.

God formed Adam in His own image.

Adam of his own volition violated God's command, resulting in sin, scarring his thinking and separating himself from God spiritually and also scarring his physical composition.

Subsequent generations inherited the sin nature from Adam.

Humans are corrupt versions of what God made from birth, but God still loves us that He has provided a solution for us to return to Him by His protocols.

We don't get there through homosexuality.

94 posted on 08/13/2011 11:09:00 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: USS Alaska; MsLady

For your convenience -


95 posted on 08/20/2011 10:26:13 AM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: scripter

Yet another BTTT.


96 posted on 08/27/2011 7:52:40 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: little jeremiah

Yet another BTTT.


97 posted on 09/11/2011 5:44:03 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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Yet another BTTT.


98 posted on 12/08/2011 3:28:25 PM PST by little jeremiah (We will have to go through hell to get out of hell.)
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To: Islander7

I agree. IMO, it’s the hormones added and the OVER use of soy products.


99 posted on 12/12/2011 5:47:15 AM PST by gopheraj
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