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Defend the castle!
olegvolk.net ^ | 8 June, 2011 | Oleg Volk

Posted on 06/10/2011 6:28:26 AM PDT by marktwain

Recently, police have been involved in what looks like murder in the course of home invasion and murder with intimidation of witnesses and press. At this rate, I expect the distinction between the ordinary Ordnungspolizei and Einsatzgruppen to become insignificant.

As the experience with Minneapolis home invaders indicates, birdshot is not sufficient against armored opponents. At least two good hits were scored by the defender with minimal effect. The perpetrators were decorated by the police department even though they wrongdoing and settled the case at the cost to the taxpayers of over $600K. At least in this case the victims were not injured.

Jose Guerena’s example suggests also that holding fire is the wrong thing to do if attacked by either freelance or government thugs. A lawful person who has no cause to expect a police raid is more likely to face regular criminals impersonating police than uniformed criminals representing themselves. In any case, return fire at least spoils the aim of the invaders. Just kneeling before the intruders while they take aim or kill your pets is not the way to go.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: banglist; constitution; defense; home; jbts; rkba; swat
I think our best defense is to insist that the police follow their oaths of office... it is a long term strategy...
1 posted on 06/10/2011 6:28:30 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain

“I think our best defense is to insist that the police follow their oaths of office... it is a long term strategy...”

You mean like they did in 1936, Mr. Chamberlain? Are you Jewish by chance, sounds like the strategy the German, Russian, (fill in the blank) Jews have used to prevent the pogroms and other various holocausts that are visited upon them every 70 years or so.

Yep, if you have something that works why change?


2 posted on 06/10/2011 6:33:45 AM PDT by TxDas (This above all, to thine ownself be true.)
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To: marktwain

Before opening fire on the police, regardless of how much in the right you are, you should be aware that by doing so you are choosing one of two options:

A. (the more likely) death by police fire on the field of battle.

B. life in prison.

Is it right these are the only two options? Nope. But that doesn’t change the fact they are.

Is this hill worth dying on? I firmly believe there are such hills, but is this it?

Choose wisely.


3 posted on 06/10/2011 6:41:02 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: marktwain

It is good for the short-term strategy. The long term strategy is to find out the officers involved via FOIA and the department’s watch log then sue the sh&t out of those officers, watch commander, chief of police, mayor, and city council, for violation of your civil rights and criminal home invasion. I’m pretty sure there are some hungry lawyers out there.

If that does not work, vote the city council out of office, along with the mayor, then fire all officers including the chief for dereliction of duty and have their certifications pulled.

I am not for equal violence, but if the above do not work, I cannot say what should be done.


4 posted on 06/10/2011 6:47:15 AM PDT by DownInFlames
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To: marktwain

The best way to reform police wrongdoing is to make sure that their extrajudicial overreach - when it occurs - becomes extremely painful for them.


5 posted on 06/10/2011 7:02:34 AM PDT by agere_contra ("Debt is the foundation of destruction" : Sarah Palin.)
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To: marktwain

Those interested in the subject may also find the following from Massad Ayoob of interest:

[begin post]
READING EVIDENTIARY VIDEOS: Point #1 Posted: 05 Jun 2011 07:08 AM PDT

After a discussion that began here in late April when I mentioned that cops were not only training for terrorist attacks on the ground in the US, but citing positively armed citizens’ response in some such incidents, the matter morphed into a debate about whether the cops themselves were terrorists. Several who took that position cited YouTube videos, and I said that a tutorial on the topic of how to analyze such videos for the truth they contain might be in order. Several who commented here endorsed that idea, so here’s the first segment.

I was going to start with a non-police case, but since my last blog entry some have suggested that the recent fatal shooting of Jose Guerena in Pima County, Arizona would be a good place to begin. Fair enough. A good synopsis of this incident appears at Wikipedia, and should be read for background.

Prior to the recent release of a video of the incident from a camera mounted to the helmet of one of the SWAT cops, an aggregate of the myriad accusations against the police ran as follows.

Supposedly, the evil police (1) came silently like thieves (2) in the night, (3) wearing masks like burglars or home invaders, and (4) without identifying themselves, and opened fire on the homeowner (5) for no reason. It has also been alleged that they (6) shot him 60 to 71 times, (7) conspired to deprive him of emergency medical care until it was certain he was dead, (8) and made an illegal warrantless entry in any case, (9) should have known they weren’t in danger because the fully loaded rifle of the homeowner was recovered “on safe,” and (10) didn’t have grounds to make the raid to begin with. Oh, and they supposedly (11) “attacked” the wrong address, to boot.

Six of those eleven accusations, more than half of the allegations, are proven false on their face by the helmetcam video.

We see and hear that the SWAT team (1) announced their presence with a high-decibel siren wail that lasted for several seconds. (2) It all takes place in broad daylight, shortly after 9:30 AM. (3) Several have no gear obscuring their facial features, and all are in readily identifiable SWAT uniforms. (4) If you listen for it, you can hear the cops verbally identify themselves. (5) The body language and movement patterns of the officers are consistent with people in fear of their lives, and one officer is seen to fall, giving others the impression that he has been shot.

Other points are refuted by other documentation released from the investigation. (6) The autopsy lists 22 gunshot wounds, not 60 or 71. (7) It is common custom and practice for emergency medical personnel not to enter a shooting scene until it has been searched and secured for other armed perpetrators; if you don’t believe the cops, ask any paramedic or EMT you know. (8) Newsmen have independently investigated and confirmed that they indeed had a warrant. (9) Seen from the front (as when it is pointed at you) the AR15 rifle can’t be visually determined to be “on-safe” or “off-safe.” (10) The continuing investigation indicates that there were indeed grounds for the search warrant to be issued by the officers. Read it here (in detail, please, if you’re going to comment). And note from both film and warrant that (11) Mr. Guerena’s home was indeed the designated, judicially approved target site for the warrant service.

The lesson? Ask yourself if the evidence of your own eyes and ears confirms the allegations in question…and do the same with documented reports as soon as they are released.

Until the investigation is complete, Jose Guerena should be considered innocent until proven guilty insofar as the drug and home invasion allegations…and the police who shot him should be considered innocent until proven guilty of having done so wrongfully.

[end post]

References:

1/The Wikipedia article is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Guerena

2/ The Search Warrant request is here: http://www.kvoa.com/files/Scanned%20Document0582_000.pdf


6 posted on 06/10/2011 7:50:14 AM PDT by QBFimi (When gunpowder speaks, beasts listen.)
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To: Sherman Logan; harpseal; TexasCowboy; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; wku man; ...
"Choose wisely."

Yes. And seeing as option A is becoming more and more the case whether you return fire or not, one might do well to remember: "The first one will cost you your life -- all the rest are free."

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

7 posted on 06/10/2011 8:13:05 AM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: QBFimi

Thanks for the post.

Many of these accusations against the police were repeatedly posted and discussed on FR as being facts, not allegations.

I particularly like the one about the cops supposedly responding differently because the gun was on safe.

This is in utter violation of gun safety principles, in which one is required to assume every gun is loaded and off safe. Now, in a confrontation, cops are supposed to assume a gun in on safe unless they can determine otherwise?


8 posted on 06/10/2011 8:39:46 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Joe Brower

So essentially, Joe, you’re saying that once the UN Gun Control schemes are ratified by the Senate and massive law enforcement efforts to bring in gun owners are underway, my fate is sealed one way or another.

By that rationale, the ratification of any gun ban treaty or law by our government means the death sentence of millions of Americans, specifically those who will ardently refuse to lay down their arms, myself included.

...comforting. Molon labe!


9 posted on 06/10/2011 8:45:28 AM PDT by rarestia (It's time to water the Tree of Liberty.)
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To: rarestia
By that rationale, the ratification of any gun ban treaty or law by our government...

signals opening day of hunting season.

10 posted on 06/10/2011 8:57:54 AM PDT by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
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To: MileHi

As much as I want to agree with you, that same mentality was likely bandied about in 94 when the Clintoon AWB went into effect with little more than a whimper from gun owners.

I don’t want to believe that our government is in the business of stripping us of our rights, but they’ve certainly gotten more brazen about it as of late; and with little more affair than a blurb on the evening news, Americans are sitting fat and happy in their leather recliners watching their 60 inch DLP TVs in 1080p high def. We’ve become a nation of “go along to get along” types. I’m just as guilty.


11 posted on 06/10/2011 9:03:02 AM PDT by rarestia (It's time to water the Tree of Liberty.)
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To: DownInFlames

If that does not work, vote the city council out of office,
***One man has one vote. This position is ridiculous.


12 posted on 06/10/2011 9:10:48 AM PDT by Kevmo (Turning the Party over to the so-called moderates wouldn't make any sense at all. ~Ronald Reagan)
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To: Kevmo

Usually when this type of situation happens, the town/county remembers it at the election booth. Besides, it is not that difficult to get chief of police fired these days. The local pols want to keep their jobs.


13 posted on 06/10/2011 9:14:09 AM PDT by DownInFlames
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To: Sherman Logan
Is this hill worth dying on?

Real freedom or abject abasement before our Masters?

I know not what course others may take...

14 posted on 06/10/2011 9:37:17 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (explosive bolts, ten thousand volts at a million miles an hour)
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To: rarestia
"...when the Clintoon AWB went into effect with little more than a whimper from gun owners."

Huh? Are you suffering from memory loss? The GOA, the NRA, the state 2nd Amendment organizations in California where I was stationed at the time, talk radio listeners and hosts, and everyday gun owners across the nation fought that bill tooth and nail. The AWB was a huge reason (for many it was the major reason) the 'Rats were swept out of Congress in the '94 elections, giving the Pubbies their first majority in decades.

Maybe you (by your own admission) and the majority of the American Sheeple are sitting in Lazy-Boy recliners watching your 60-inch hi-def TVs, but remember, only about 5% of the American population actually fought in the American Revolution. I suspect those numbers will bear out if/when TSHTF again. So sit back and enjoy your 1080p...we patriots will do the heavy lifting for the rest of you.

Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!

15 posted on 06/10/2011 9:40:06 AM PDT by wku man (Who says conservatives don't rock? http://www.bigdawgmusicmafia.com)
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To: rarestia
I’m just as guilty.

Oh, me too. But I have a sick feeling in my stomach that the luxury of shrugging off yet one more outrage is about over. Working within the system is slowly turning us into tax slaves burdened with a bottomless pit of laws, rules and regulations. Freedom is an increasing illusion. 2012 looks like the last chance to change course, and I am no longer an optimist.

16 posted on 06/10/2011 9:50:31 AM PDT by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
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To: marktwain
I think our best defense is to insist that the police follow their oaths of office...

Sure! They are bound to comply ... they just forgot about their oaths in the first place, right?

17 posted on 06/10/2011 10:03:29 AM PDT by GingisK
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To: Sherman Logan; QBFimi
Actually, a lot of the bad info came from early reports and info given by the cops themselves.

4-5 seconds worth of a siren squawk that sounds EXACTLY like my car alarm instead of the half hour they initially claimed? Pounding on the door for 30 seconds when at best it's 8? Claiming they returned fire only after being fired upon?

Many of the accusations against the police are still very much valid. Including insufficient evidence for the warrant itself...

18 posted on 06/10/2011 10:12:38 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (explosive bolts, ten thousand volts at a million miles an hour)
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To: Dead Corpse

Fog of war.


19 posted on 06/10/2011 10:18:13 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

More like Jack of Boot...


20 posted on 06/10/2011 10:22:43 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (explosive bolts, ten thousand volts at a million miles an hour)
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To: Sherman Logan

>>Before opening fire on the police, regardless of how much in the right you are, you should be aware that by doing so you are choosing one of two options:

A. (the more likely) death by police fire on the field of battle.

B. life in prison.

Is it right these are the only two options? Nope. But that doesn’t change the fact they are.

Is this hill worth dying on? I firmly believe there are such hills, but is this it?

Choose wisely.<<

I have given this some deep thought and I have come to the conclusion that more than likely I will shoot through the door in an effort to bring the attackers advancement to a halt. Why do I feel this way? One reason and one reason only, neither my wife nor I take part in any criminal activities so I have no reason to expect a forced entry from the local police.

Anyone attempting to break into our home will be viewed as committing a criminal activity and should expect an appropriate response. If the police want to speak to me or search my home, knock on the door and wait until I can get to the door (I use a cane to walk) or call me on the phone and tell me there are officers at my door who want immediate access. My Caller ID had best be saying Sparks Police Dept.


21 posted on 06/10/2011 10:24:47 AM PDT by B4Ranch (Allowing Islam into America is akin to injecting yourself with AIDS to prove how tolerant you are...)
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To: B4Ranch

I applaud you for giving this some thought.

Not necessarily the decision I would make, but a perfectly defensible one, IMO.


22 posted on 06/10/2011 10:37:24 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: MileHi
signals opening day of hunting season.

Starting with those that send the SWAT teams first.

I have my list, do you have yours?

23 posted on 06/10/2011 10:41:25 AM PDT by DCBryan1 (FORGET the lawyers...first kill the "journalists". (Die Ritter der Kokosnuss))
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To: B4Ranch
If the police want to speak to me or search my home, knock on the door and wait until I can get to the door (I use a cane to walk) or call me on the phone and tell me there are officers at my door who want immediate access. My Caller ID had best be saying Sparks Police Dept.

When I have to submit to an ATF inspection for my 07/02 SOT, I always invite over my neighbors, one an LRPD officer, and a Pulaski County Sheriff. They trust ATF about as far as they can throw them.

I have made it known to my friends at both departments that a call and a knock, I will be more than accomodating, but I have a large inventory of firearms that KKK, Hells Angels, survivalists, etc. would kill my family and I for.

I told them both that I would take any no-knock entry (even legal) as an assault to kill my family and take my inventory by the above criminals. I don't have time to see if they are real LEO or local gangbangers using a ruse. Thankfully the PIO goes to church with us and I'm pretty certain that they don't want to proverbally "poke the angry dog with the stick" if a good petting will suffice.

24 posted on 06/10/2011 10:50:01 AM PDT by DCBryan1 (FORGET the lawyers...first kill the "journalists". (Die Ritter der Kokosnuss))
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To: DCBryan1

I do.


25 posted on 06/10/2011 11:28:16 AM PDT by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
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To: Sherman Logan

“A. (the more likely) death by police fire on the field of battle.”

Or, Option A-1. Kneel before your masters and be executed.


26 posted on 06/10/2011 11:35:04 AM PDT by saleman (!!!!)
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To: Sherman Logan
Before opening fire on the police, regardless of how much in the right you are

as the article stated, *IF* you are 'innocent' the odds are that you are facing imposters...

hesitation is not yer FRiend...

the *wrong door* unit of the local SEAL wannabes will very likely kill ya dead, but there have been several cases of homeowners living to tell about it...and cash the fat check...

being as though theyre wannabes, and NOT SEALs, they aint used to the target shootin back...

27 posted on 06/10/2011 11:43:36 AM PDT by Gilbo_3 (Gov is not reason; not eloquent; its force.Like fire,a dangerous servant & master. George Washington)
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To: Dead Corpse

***4-5 seconds worth of a siren squawk that sounds EXACTLY like my car alarm instead of the half hour they initially claimed?***

A few years ago we were vacationing in Carlsbad NM when we heard the siren of a police car. As we continued it got louder, and louder so we and SEVERAL OTHER cars pulled over.

Then a woman came out of her house, hit her key pad and shut the alarm off. It sounded exactly like a police siren.


28 posted on 06/10/2011 11:59:09 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Click my name. See my home page, if you dare!)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

I’m still looking for a set of locomotive air horns that I could mount on my truck. The one set I found were too big to fit my Dakota, not to mention steam powered, but I’m assuming some of the newer models are smaller.


29 posted on 06/10/2011 12:04:31 PM PDT by Dead Corpse (explosive bolts, ten thousand volts at a million miles an hour)
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To: wku man

WKU... I admitted nothing. Matter of fact, I was 14 and manning my algebra book when I that law was passed. I didn’t feel the effects from it until 7 years when I bought my 9mm Ruger and had a gimped 10 rd. magazine. Since then, I’ve been an ardent supporter of 2A.

I only said what I said having read anecdotal accounts of the time period in books such as “Unintended Consequences” and made corollaries based on historical facts: people have consistently rolled over for gun bans with little more than a whimper and a sigh. I hope the tide changes, but as a 31 year old well-armed Conservative, I hope history doesn’t repeat itself.


30 posted on 06/10/2011 12:54:39 PM PDT by rarestia (It's time to water the Tree of Liberty.)
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To: rarestia
"WKU... I admitted nothing."

You admitted nothing?

"Americans are sitting fat and happy in their leather recliners watching their 60 inch DLP TVs in 1080p high def. We’ve become a nation of “go along to get along” types. I’m just as guilty."

Does "I'm just as guilty" mean something different in your neck of the woods? 'Cause it sure sounds to me like you admitted to being a go along to get along guy, sitting fat and happy in his leather recliner, watching his big-screen hi-def TV, while the government runs roughshod over our rights. If that's not you, why did you say "I'm just as guilty"?

"...when the Clintoon AWB went into effect with little more than a whimper from gun owners."

"I was 14 and manning my algebra book when I that law was passed. I didn’t feel the effects from it until 7 years when I bought my 9mm Ruger and had a gimped 10 rd. magazine."

"I only said what I said having read anecdotal accounts of the time period in books such as “Unintended Consequences” and made corollaries based on historical facts:"

So in other words, you're talking out your a**.

If you're going to make a bold statement, such as accusing us gun owners who vigorously fought the AWB of letting it pass with "little more than a whimper", you'd better be ready to back it with more than anecdotal evidence, and what you consider to be "historical facts". Especially considering you weren't old enough to vote, or even understand the issue at the time. I was a 29-year old soldier stationed in California in 1994, and took considerable career risks speaking up and speaking out against the Coward-in-Chief and his party's infringement on the 2nd Amendment.

Had it not been for we PO'd gun owners voting the 'Rats out of office en masse in '94, you might not have been able to buy your Ruger seven years later. There were all kinds of plans in Congress to ban semi-auto pistols and shotguns, ban any ammo capable of penetrating body armor (IOW, any rifle ammo over .22 LR), ban any ammo that had ever been used for military purposes (IOW, even .22 LR), etc. Had we gun owners not put the Pubbies back in control of Congress, the 2nd Amendment would've been dead. There's a "historical fact" for you.

I'm glad you're exercising your RKBA, and that you consider yourself a conservative. I, too, hope history doesn't repeat itself, but if it (likely) does, are you going to get out of your leather recliner, turn off you big screen TV and do your patriotic duty? Here's an idea: why don't you turn off the TV now, give up your go-along-to-get-along ways, and help those of us who are (again) vigorously opposing attempts to ride roughshod over our (and your) rights? Maybe if you and others like you get out of your leather recliners and help us pull the wagon, history won't have to repeat!

Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!

31 posted on 06/10/2011 2:07:23 PM PDT by wku man (Who says conservatives don enough to vote, or even underst't rock? http://www.bigdawgmusicmafia.com)
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To: Joe Brower
We have seen this incrementalism before, again and again in history. I was born into an America that had no such thing as "SWAT Teams", "No Knock" raids, etc. Now, events are happening on a daily basis where innocent citizen's lives are put in danger or ended by these conditions.

It only gets worse from here, and that is something we all need to be aware enough to admit. Whatever happens to the economy, jobs, party in power, etc., doesn't change the trajectory, which is always toward more state power and control.

We have SWAT teams in every city now. They are the hammer in constant search of a nail.

The only question we need to answer is what do we do when we ARE the nail, either because of a wrong address, mistaken identity, association, previous resident at same address, etc.

“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? . . .” -Solzhenitzyn

32 posted on 06/10/2011 2:11:24 PM PDT by spodefly (This is my tag line. There are many like it, but this one is mine.)
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To: wku man

Thanks for saving me a bunch of keyboarding. I had hundreds of hours and big $$$ in trying to stop the AWB.


33 posted on 06/10/2011 2:34:01 PM PDT by mad_as_he$$
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To: B4Ranch

A four cops left at the Sparks PD are “currently busy”.


34 posted on 06/10/2011 2:37:47 PM PDT by mad_as_he$$
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To: mad_as_he$$
We fought the good fight, FRiend, and it paid off in November '94. We've got to keep fighting the good fight now, lest it turn into a real fight.

Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!

35 posted on 06/10/2011 3:43:32 PM PDT by wku man (Who says conservatives don enough to vote, or even underst't rock? http://www.bigdawgmusicmafia.com)
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To: Pete-R-Bilt; Dead Corpse

Pete, got a guy who wants horns that sound like yours. Air yours air horns?


36 posted on 06/10/2011 7:28:52 PM PDT by B4Ranch (Allowing Islam into America is akin to injecting yourself with AIDS to prove how tolerant you are...)
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To: Sherman Logan

>Many of these accusations against the police were repeatedly posted and discussed on FR as being facts, not allegations.

Some of them were more “matter of interpretation” the siren they had on for 8 sec or so according to what I saw on the helmet cam; there are CAR ALARMS that go off longer than that.
The time from “announce’ to bust in the door is frighteningly short and indicative that they would have shot if they had seen any ‘sharp movement’... you know, like the startling event of having your door busted-down.

>I particularly like the one about the cops supposedly responding differently because the gun was on safe.

I never saw someone here saying that the cops should have acted differently because it was on safe; I *DID* see a lot of people saying that the weapon being on safe affirmatively disproves the police’s claim (at least in some of the stories) that he fired first.


37 posted on 06/10/2011 8:07:21 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Sherman Logan; Dead Corpse

>Fog of war.

War against the Citizen.


38 posted on 06/10/2011 8:10:26 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: OneWingedShark
On breaking the line at Trafalgar, H.M.S. Victory fired her port carronade through the stern windows of the French flagship, the Bucentaure, and wrought great havoc,

Nelson's carronades were loaded with a round shot and a barel of musket balls. Claymores are illegal for citizens to own. However, replica black powser cannon are legal. The have to be muzzle loading*, but nothing says they can't be command detonated, and they can be scaled down from the 3000lb guns of Nelson's time to something more manageable that works just about like a claymore. Just sayin'

*Not like you're going to survive long enough to reload them anyway.

39 posted on 06/10/2011 8:50:30 PM PDT by from occupied ga (your own government is your most dangerous enemy)
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To: wku man

There’s quite a bit of acrimony in your rant there, WKU, but you’re still bashing me as if I’m part of the problem.

I only admitted to being a go-along-to-get-along type of person. I don’t own a TV and haven’t paid for cable since I bought my own home 5 years ago. I have several antique armchairs that I reinforced and reupholstered myself that I use to sit and read my Kindle every night while drinking tea. About the only modern convenience I afford myself is my extensive computer collection, but I’m a PC gamer and a computer engineer, so that sorta fits.

Now, all of that aside, I have become an outspoken Second Amendment advocate. I taught myself reloading and gunsmithing, built my own small forge in the backyard, and I regularly refurbish curios and relics. I’m well-known in my community, active in my Homeowner’s Association, at my church, and in local politics. I voted for Ron Paul in the Primaries in 08, and that was only because I could not throw my hat in the ring for a whiny RINO regardless of how much time he spent in a Vietnamese POW camp.

As far as the 94 AWB and other things, I’m not talking out of my ass. I’ve done my fair share of research on this stuff, but I’m simply making the point that I am subject to the viewpoints of history. No one book is going to be even-handed in their assessment of the situation on the ground, and I’ve not read much about the hue and cry from those of us who care about the 2A because the media seldom reports on it.

Meanwhile, I know damn well that people like yourself were instrumental on the ground to keeping the pressure on Congress to put an expiration date on this piece of legislation, and for that, I thank you. There was a lot of arm-twisting and bullshit politics that went into passing that AWB, and I’m certain there were some less-than-legal measures attempted, some successfully. In the end, it came and went, but without Patriots like yourself and an upwelling of support from the youth such as my generation and those younger than me (I’m 31), the 2A will go the way of the dodo along with the rest of our Rights.

My biggest fear is that good men do nothing. I admit to being one of those men if for no other reason than to not be thrown in the clink or murdered by overzealous cops. One person cannot make a difference, but a few thousand armed Patriots are the reason why this country came into existence. Let’s see if there are enough of us to man up and keep it alive.


40 posted on 06/11/2011 5:15:58 AM PDT by rarestia (It's time to water the Tree of Liberty.)
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To: wku man
I, too, hope history doesn't repeat itself, but if it (likely) does, are you going to get out of your leather recliner, turn off you big screen TV and do your patriotic duty? Here's an idea: why don't you turn off the TV now, give up your go-along-to-get-along ways, and help those of us who are (again) vigorously opposing attempts to ride roughshod over our (and your) rights? Maybe if you and others like you get out of your leather recliners and help us pull the wagon, history won't have to repeat!

Just as a secondary to this part of your post, in case it wasn't clear in my response; I would die for this country. I already pull a very heavy wagon in my community for this country and for the 2A, and I will continue to do so with little more than a grunt when it gets tough. I was raised to grin and bear it, and I'll continue to do so. My lament is that there aren't enough youth among my community who are willing to do the same, and while I enjoy a good book and some orange pekoe, I'd gladly lay down both and my life in service for the greatness of this country and the exceptionalism that America has always stood for.

We're heading into dark times, FRiend. Don't mistake my posts for sloth. I may not be a fighting man by training, but I'll protect my God, my family, and my country with every last fiber of my being.

41 posted on 06/11/2011 5:21:34 AM PDT by rarestia (It's time to water the Tree of Liberty.)
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To: Dead Corpse
I’m still looking for a set of locomotive air horns that I could mount on my truck. The one set I found were too big to fit my Dakota, not to mention steam powered, but I’m assuming some of the newer models are smaller.

Right here you go. You want a set of 5-chime [K5LA or M5] Nathans, which'll run you about a grand.

Yeah, they're on the largish size, after all, they're made for locomotives, not trucks. But they beat the heck out of those wimpy fire truck air horns.

42 posted on 06/11/2011 7:30:24 AM PDT by archy (I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!)
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To: from occupied ga
However, replica black powser cannon are legal. The have to be muzzle loading*, but nothing says they can't be command detonated, and they can be scaled down from the 3000lb guns of Nelson's time to something more manageable that works just about like a claymore.

Oh, you mean like one of the steel tee fencepost rams, with a 3/32 hole drilled in it for electrical lines or a cannon fuze touchhole?

They're about $20 at our local farm supply store, and with welded-on rails for handles very suitable for an added elevation adjustment mechanism.


43 posted on 06/11/2011 7:38:00 AM PDT by archy (I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!)
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To: archy
Oh, you mean like one of the steel tee fencepost rams

yes - maybe a little shorter so as to get a better spread of the "heavy shot" - but essentially yes.

44 posted on 06/11/2011 8:59:07 AM PDT by from occupied ga (your own government is your most dangerous enemy)
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To: rarestia
"As far as the 94 AWB and other things, I’m not talking out of my ass."

"...when the Clintoon AWB went into effect with little more than a whimper from gun owners."

Breaking news...yes you are. You weren't there; by your own admission you were 14 years old at the time. By your own admission, all you know about the AWB bill process came second hand, and it wasn't until seven years later you felt the effect of it. You're talking out your a**, and those of us who fought the good fight in '94...on the phone, in letters, through petitions, through the money we donated to 2nd Amendment groups and spent joining them, then at the polls in November...don't appreciate your accusations that we let the law pass "with little more than a whimper". You weren't there. We were. Stop talking out your a**.

"I only admitted to being a go-along-to-get-along type of person. I don’t own a TV and haven’t paid for cable since I bought my own home 5 years ago."

So? I don't care what kind of TV you have or don't have. You're an admitted go-along-to-get-along guy, who made an accusation based on secondhand information, that I and millions of other RKBA advocates sat around sniffing back tears over our chamomile tea while the AWB delivered a body blow to our rights. Had you not made this ignorant and infuriating accusation, my responses to you wouldn't be "acrimonious". I probably wouldn't have responded to you at all. But you did...you talked out your a**, and by doing so, you pi**ed me off. So until you man up and admit to being wrong about your baseless accusation, I have absolutely zero time for you.

Oh yeah, and a little thanks for saving what's left of your RKBA over the years would be nice, too. Not to me, but to all of us who fought the good fight while you fought pimples in junior high school.

Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!

45 posted on 06/11/2011 9:27:20 AM PDT by wku man (Who says conservatives don't rock? http://www.bigdawgmusicmafia.com)
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To: from occupied ga

“In difficult ground, press on; On hemmed-in ground, use subterfuge; In death ground, fight.” - Sun Tzu’s Art of War


46 posted on 06/11/2011 9:35:00 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: B4Ranch

My train horns?

yes they are

bout 140.00 if you use the electric solenoid included

better sound if you plum a mechanical valve to use...

they use alot of air but doable on any vehicle


47 posted on 06/11/2011 3:44:40 PM PDT by Pete-R-Bilt (If more is better, too much is just right!)
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To: Dead Corpse

Dead Corpse, freepmail Pete-r-bilt to locate your horns.


48 posted on 06/11/2011 4:28:51 PM PDT by B4Ranch (Allowing Islam into America is akin to injecting yourself with AIDS to prove how tolerant you are...)
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To: Pete-R-Bilt

>>better sound if you plum a mechanical valve to use...<<

and guaranteed to scare the p out of locomotive operators. LOL


49 posted on 06/11/2011 4:33:41 PM PDT by B4Ranch (Allowing Islam into America is akin to injecting yourself with AIDS to prove how tolerant you are...)
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To: wku man

Bravo WKU. You keep fighting that good fight. Keep wasting your energy on the people who are on your side.

I never understood the likes of people like you; type-A personality folks who want to fight for the sake of fighting.

I’m not in the business of lambasting friends, so I’ll leave this conversation where it is.

Good day, sir.


50 posted on 06/12/2011 4:45:03 AM PDT by rarestia (It's time to water the Tree of Liberty.)
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