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Pollard's Family Pleads to Allow Him to Attend Father's Funeral
Arutz Sheva ^ | 18/6/11 | INN Staff

Posted on 06/18/2011 10:29:06 PM PDT by Eleutheria5

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To: OldNewYork

Patriotism? Is that what YOU call patriotism? Creepy.

You follow the example of the British Admiralty who keep REAL captured America patriots in horrible, deadly, miserable conditions not again matched until the Nazi death camps. Look up Wallops Bay, if you are a REAL New Yorker.

The Admiralty refused to negotiate with General Washington for prisoner swaps. Washington was a great man and the First among true patriots. Had he captured a French officer or soldier spying on the Patriot cause for France or some partisan interest in France, he would have shipped him home after taking an oath never to come back.


151 posted on 06/20/2011 8:49:04 AM PDT by bvw
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To: Eleutheria5

I have no sympathy for him.


152 posted on 06/20/2011 8:49:55 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Eleutheria5

We all know that he would not return after the funeral. If the family is so concerned about the son attending the funeral, then hold the funeral in the prison courtyard.


153 posted on 06/20/2011 8:50:31 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 ("It is only when we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything" -- Fight Club)
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To: bvw

ROTFL.


154 posted on 06/20/2011 8:52:13 AM PDT by ansel12 (America has close to India population of 1950s, India has 1,200,000,000 people now. Quality of Life?)
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To: harmonium
The judge stated that Pollard was an ideologue and didn’t do it for the money.

All the more reason to send a message to other potential ideologue spies, who might think that passing secrets to an "ally" will just get them a wrist slap.

155 posted on 06/20/2011 8:54:36 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 ("It is only when we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything" -- Fight Club)
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To: PapaBear3625

This isn’t the first instance of a prisoner attending a funeral. Prison officials have experience with securing prisoners during family funerals. Consequently, we don’t know that. But the prison courtyard is a perfectly reasonable option, too, imho.


156 posted on 06/20/2011 8:57:25 AM PDT by Eleutheria5 (End the occupation. Annex today.)
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To: PapaBear3625

The troll ‘harmonium’ is no longer accepted here.


157 posted on 06/20/2011 8:57:32 AM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: Eleutheria5

Send his dead body.


158 posted on 06/20/2011 9:01:10 AM PDT by bmwcyle (It is Satan's fault)
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To: ansel12

All the energy spent against fuming against “Bolshevik-Jewish” and Soviet agents in government and establishment, going back to Wilson and the Red-Scares, and then the McCarthy-era prosecutions and we still ended up with an Obama. Do you realize “they” won?

Frothing “hyper-patriotic” idiots always fought the wrong battles in the wrong places. You don’t know or care about Liberty, that’s what I think.


159 posted on 06/20/2011 9:01:59 AM PDT by bvw
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To: bvw

God save us from, spies traitors and their fellow travelers.


160 posted on 06/20/2011 9:04:03 AM PDT by ansel12 (America has close to India population of 1950s, India has 1,200,000,000 people now. Quality of Life?)
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To: Eleutheria5
This isn’t the first instance of a prisoner attending a funeral. Prison officials have experience with securing prisoners during family funerals.

For some reason I was thinking that the funeral was going to be in Israel, rather than in South Bend, Indiana. Yes, you are correct that the prison people could ensure he returned from a funeral in Indiana.

161 posted on 06/20/2011 9:04:28 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 ("It is only when we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything" -- Fight Club)
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To: Lmo56

These are the “comps”—the comparables Harmonium posted.

Jonathan Pollard - Israel - ife imprisonment
Michael Schwartz - Saudi Arabi - Discharged from Navy-No time served.
Peter Lee - China† - 1 year in halfway house-No jail time.
Ronald Montaperto-China- 3 months
Xiaodong Sheldon Meng- China - 2 years
Samuel Morison- Great Britain 2 years 3 months
Phillip Selde -El Salvador 2 years
Sharon Scranage - Ghana- 8 months
Steven Baba - South Africa -5 months
Jean Baynes - Phillipines-1 year and 3 months
Geneva Jones - Liberia-3 years and 1 month
Frederick Hamilton -Ecuador- 3 years and 1 month
J. Reece Roth China and Iran 4 years
Abdul Kader Helmy Egypt 4 years 2 years
Joseph Brown Phillipines 6 years
Michael Ray Aquino Phillipines 6 years and 4 months
Michael Allen Phillipines 8 years
Robert Kim South Korea 9 years 7 years
Leandro Aragoncillo Phillipines 10 years
Thomas Dolce South Africa 10 years 5.2 years
Steven Lalas Greece 14 years

What is your answer to them?


162 posted on 06/20/2011 9:05:02 AM PDT by bvw
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To: ansel12

God obviously did NOT save us. Obama’s the proof of that.


163 posted on 06/20/2011 9:06:31 AM PDT by bvw
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To: OldNewYork
By "Wallops Bay" I meant "Wallabout Bay". One book summarizes the conditions:
Between 1775 and 1783, some 200,000 Americans took up arms against the British Crown. Just over 6,800 of those men died in battle. About 25,000 became prisoners of war, most of them confined in New York City under conditions so atrocious that they perished by the thousands. Evidence suggests that at least 17,500 Americans may have died in these prisons—more than twice the number to die on the battlefield. It was in New York, not Boston or Philadelphia, where most Americans gave their lives for the cause of independence.

New York City became the jailhouse of the American Revolution because it was the principal base of the Crown’s military operations. Beginning with the bumper crop of American captives taken during the 1776 invasion of New York, captured Americans were stuffed into a hastily assembled collection of public buildings, sugar houses, and prison ships. The prisoners were shockingly overcrowded and chronically underfed—those who escaped alive told of comrades so hungry they ate their own clothes and shoes.

See http://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Patriots-American-Prisoners-Revolutionary/dp/0465008356

Those aboard ships had it the worst, for them there was no hope. The Admiralty refused prisoner trades.
164 posted on 06/20/2011 9:42:40 AM PDT by bvw
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To: harmonium

I’m okay with him going to funeral as long as he wears an ankle ring with a tracer.


165 posted on 06/20/2011 10:00:10 AM PDT by Little Ray (Best Conservative in the Primary; AGAINST Obama in the General.)
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now

You might have an argument as to disparity of sentencing. However, your characterization of this abysmal low life as heroic and a savior of the West from Iranian nuclear attacks sounds more like something that would come from the mouth of his defense attorney than an objective observer.I also think his wife should have served more time and not been released as early as she was.


166 posted on 06/20/2011 10:24:17 AM PDT by chuckee
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To: bvw

YOu are a fool there bvw,
Pollard admitted to and was convicted of giving and selling American secrets to a foreign country,
This marxist punk we have as a president has YET to be charged or convicted.
Get a grip


167 posted on 06/20/2011 10:54:27 AM PDT by Joe Boucher ((FUBO))
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To: Eleutheria5
If Jonathan Pollard had been an Israeli citizen, working as an Israeli intelligence analyst, and had given up the SAME information to [Al Queda, Egypt, Hamas, Jordan, Syria, etc.] - the "Jonathan Pollard Apologizers" in this thread would be screaming BLOODY MURDER ...

AND, Israel would likely have executed him ...

168 posted on 06/20/2011 12:09:25 PM PDT by Lmo56 (If ya wanna run with the big dawgs - ya gotta learn to piss in the tall grass ...)
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To: bvw

So there were not communist spies during and prior to the McCarthy era? Because you did not like McCarthy’s tactics does not mean the people that were accused were not spies and communist sympathizers. Because a murderer does not receive his Miranda warning does not mean factually he was not a murderer.


169 posted on 06/20/2011 12:26:17 PM PDT by chuckee
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To: chuckee

There were spies. They spied for allies.

The Soviet Union was an official ally during the war.


170 posted on 06/20/2011 12:29:25 PM PDT by bvw
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To: bvw

The USSR was an ally in the vein of being allied with a natural enemy as the lesser of 2 evils to defeat the Nazis. No one can seriously equate them with our British allies. The spies that were supplying info to the USSR were doing it not for altruistic reasons to advance democracy but for purposes of aiding a communist philosophy they believed in and wanted exported to the US.They continued to do so after the war, Can you argue that supplying the USSR with the Atom bomb technology after the war was over was for purposes of “aiding an ally”?


171 posted on 06/20/2011 12:42:01 PM PDT by chuckee
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To: Lmo56

Not an “apologist,” myself. But your analogy is way off. He told the Russians how the US was following its nuclear subs. What would Al Qaeda or Hamas even do with something like that? He told Israel about Syria’s poison gas program. He told Israel about Iraq’s nuclear program. Both were intelligence that the US had already agreed to share with Israel, but which his superiors ordered him not to pass along. Because he passed them along, both the United States and Israel were saved a lot of grief, which is the basis of any inclination I have towards leniency in his case.

He did not, to my knowledge, out any US agents working under cover overseas. He did not to my knowledge cause any physical harm to anyone, or compromise any intelligence operations, other than with the submarines. Forgive my ignorance if I’m wrong. I don’t really know all the facts, and would happily say a mea culpa if you can bring an instance to my attention in which he did any of that.

But what specifically do you mean by “the SAME information (to Al Qaeda, Egypt, Hamas, , Jordan, Syria, etc.)” What sort of information would you regard as “the same”? If you mean the bomb that Israel allegedly made at Dimona, that was outed in the media by an intelligence agent, who is now walking around free, having served his sentence.

Now here’s why I’m not an apologist for him. From what I have learned over the years, it seems he was a coke head, and he was selling secrets to support his habit. He was no hero. I’d be content to let him rot, but for the fact that we are now looking at a democratic, free Iraq thanks to the fact that Saddam didn’t get the bomb, thanks to Pollard. If he did that with the worst motives in the world, the world still benefits from this act. On the other hand, he also tried to sell secrets to Pakistan and Red China. I might be willing to overlook the Soviet Union, which no longer exists, since his leaks to Israel did cause Saddam to remain nukeless. But Red China is a sworn enemy of the US, and Pakistan is only sometimes a little better. So right now I’m leaning towards keeping him in, but letting him pay his last respects in some way to his dad.


172 posted on 06/20/2011 12:46:27 PM PDT by Eleutheria5 (End the occupation. Annex today.)
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To: Lmo56

“AND, Israel would likely have executed him ..”

Oh, and Israel doesn’t have the death penalty except for Nazi war criminals and their collaborators.


173 posted on 06/20/2011 12:49:21 PM PDT by Eleutheria5 (End the occupation. Annex today.)
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To: chuckee

The USSR was not an official enemy. They still had the status of a ally.

From June 1941 to September 1945 the US supplied the USSR billions in military aid and armaments. The US offered to include the USSR in the post-war support of the Marshall Program in 1947. The Soviets rejected any of that aid.

The Rosenbergs did spy, they did pass nuclear secrets to the Soviets. Their spying occurred during WWII, starting in 1943.

The term “Cold War” was first known to have been used in July 1947. Stalin ordered the blockade of West Berlin on 24 June 1948. The Rosenberg’s last microfilm was passed to an agent on 30 June 1948.

The Soviets say that the information the Rosenbergs passed them was not helpful in their development of a nuclear bomb.

The Rosenbergs were arrested in 1950, tried in 1951, and executed 58 years ago yesterday, 19 June 1953. Pope Pius XII was among many who appealed for them not to be executed.


174 posted on 06/20/2011 1:36:52 PM PDT by bvw
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To: Eleutheria5
On the other hand, he also tried to sell secrets to Pakistan and Red China.

A crime that wasn't done isn't a crime.

Red China is a sworn enemy of the US

Red China enjoys Most Favored Nation trade status and buys a whole lot of our bonds. Not exactly a "sworn enemy". Not at least, since Nixon and ping-pong.

Clearly Red China is a problem and dangerous. So too are Saudi Arabia and Egypt. It wasn't Chinese that attacked our embassies, ships and interests around the world, not was it Chinese attackers on 9/11. Bin Laden was found in the heart of Pakistan though!

175 posted on 06/20/2011 1:45:41 PM PDT by bvw
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To: Eleutheria5
Oh, and Israel doesn’t have the death penalty except for Nazi war criminals and their collaborators.

THE DEFINITION OF TREASON ACCORDING TO ISRAELI LAW:

In article B. of the penal code, entitled: “Treason”, clause 97 is entitled:

“Harming the sovereignty of the country or its wholeness”.

From clause 97:

(a) Any person who committed an act with the intention of harming the sovereignty of the country, an act which may cause harm to the sovereignty of the country, shall be sentenced to death or life in prison.

(b) Any person who intentionally allowed any part of land to be removed from the sovereignty of the country or added to the sovereignty of another country, an act which will bring to that, shall be sentenced to death or life in prison.

176 posted on 06/20/2011 2:06:03 PM PDT by Lmo56 (If ya wanna run with the big dawgs - ya gotta learn to piss in the tall grass ...)
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To: Eleutheria5
So right now I’m leaning towards keeping him in, but letting him pay his last respects in some way to his dad.

One of my earlier posts stated the same thing - an appropriate memorial service within the confines of the prison.

BTW: he is going to be released in 4 years [probably] as a policy that was in effect at the time he was sentenced allows for it ...

177 posted on 06/20/2011 2:11:10 PM PDT by Lmo56 (If ya wanna run with the big dawgs - ya gotta learn to piss in the tall grass ...)
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To: Lmo56

But there is no sentencing law that allows the sentence of death to be implemented, except in the case of Nazi collaborators. “Death or Life Imprisonment” is to allow a sentence of death if the sentencing statute allows, and it doesn’t. Paranthetically, every PM from Begin to the present has violated this law. What do you call giving away the Sinai, Aza, pieces of Judah and Samaria, if not “intentionally allowed any part of land to be removed from the sovereignty of the country or added to the sovereignty of another country, an act which will bring to that...” Weizman and Ben Gurion might have violated it by allowing the partition in 1921 and agreeing to the further partitioning in 1948. It’s a lousily drafted piece of legislation, because paragraph a is too vague. Anyway, it was not enforced with reference to the Dimona leaker, the closest thing we have here to the Pollard case. He served a sentence and then went free.


178 posted on 06/20/2011 2:30:30 PM PDT by Eleutheria5 (End the occupation. Annex today.)
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To: bvw

I have heard those arguments before. After years of denying any culpability, the Rosenberg apologists had to concede they were spies after the release of the Verona papers wherein Soviet documentation did confirm their status as spies. They moved to a new tack that they were innocents aiding an American ally and as a backup the information was not really that important.

1. The Rosenbergs and their cabal went into business before 1941 when the Soviets had a pact with the Nazis. They were communist Soviet partisans and the fact that the Soviets later became a US “ally” during the war was only coincidental to their mission as Stalinist supporters who wanted to advance the Stalinist cause even to the detriment of their country
2.The US offered Marshall aid assistance to Stalin. We aid Palestineans and we also supplied aid to Iraq during the Iraq Iran war. Does that mean anyone supplying nuclear secrets to Hamas or Saddam during the Iran Iraq war should not be treated harshly?
3.The Soviets whenever they mention that the Rosenbergs did not supply them info that led to their development of the bomb are disingenuous. The Rosenbergs supplied them with the corroborative drawings to corroborate info they already had from and Hall and Fuchs who were part of the cabal of spies. That is if we are to believe the Soviets at all.
4.Pope Pius advocated vs their being put to death. Irrelevant. The Church has opposed the death penalty for decades. Popes are always sending entreaties to death penalty state governors to commute death penalty sentences.We should pay them no heed.


179 posted on 06/20/2011 3:18:48 PM PDT by chuckee
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To: chuckee

Spies for allies do time and/or expatriation. They never get executed. The Rosenbergs were executed.

A pact with the Nazis in 1941 did NOT make the US an enemy of the USSR, we didn’t go to war with the Nazis ourselves until after the USSR did.

When did Popes start objecting to the death penalty? That really started only recently, with the papacy of Pope John Paul II in 1978. Before then, historically, the Catholic Church supported the death penalty in appropriate cases.


180 posted on 06/20/2011 3:30:38 PM PDT by bvw
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To: Eleutheria5
My point is that the sentence that Pollard received was relatively no different than what he was eligible to receive in Israel.

Those that whine about the unfairness of Pollard's sentence should get over it and deal with it ...

He's gonna get out in 2015 after serving about 30 years - which is fair ...

181 posted on 06/20/2011 3:35:18 PM PDT by Lmo56 (If ya wanna run with the big dawgs - ya gotta learn to piss in the tall grass ...)
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To: Eleutheria5
You waste a lot of blather to mischaracterize my statements with reference to Pollard. At most I’ve been ambivalent, certainly not an “apologist” or “mocking” anyone who disagrees. I do make a point of reasoning through the issues, and while you may disagree with my reasoning, I won’t respect a dissent that isn’t expressed in a coherent argument. It’s not a major issue for me, and I’ve expressed my opinion on that and a great number of issues here over the past decade or so, and will continue to do so. I’m boots on the ground here in Judah and Samaria, where the news doesn’t happen on TV, and on any topic at all, I can disagree with other posters here. Should the moderator of this forum wants to zot me or any other regular long-standing poster for failing to incant the prescribed shibolet on cue on Pollard or anything else, it will be Freep’s loss, not mine. Stick around, Old New York. You have a lot to learn and you really oughtn’t to presume to police your seniors here.

There's that New York sense of humor I thought I recognized. Well done - a mocking denial that you had mocked, proving my point to those that are paying close attention. Claiming that you're ambivalent isn't really a defense of your apologetics. There's no need to be wishy-washy when a little reading around this subject would clarify things for you - many people have posted information that could have helped you make up your mind. If you want to know for sure, the information is there - start with Admiral Shapiro's statements (either the one I quoted above, or one about hiring Pollard in the first place) and work backward and forward from there. If you're actually looking for answers, I hope you find them.

We all have a lot to learn, clearly.

182 posted on 06/20/2011 3:51:00 PM PDT by OldNewYork
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To: bvw

1. As to Pope Pius,we are a secular nation. Popes. Imams or Rabbis do not have any special credibility when it comes to a jury determining whether someone should be put to death.As a Catholic, I do resent when Popes think they can substitute their judgement for a jury or legislature.
2. If someone were caught selling nuke secrets to our “ally” in the terror war, Pakistan, whom we supply with 3 billion a year in aid, they need to be treated harshly.
3. The Rosenbergs may have started their little cabal party when the Soviet was not viewed as a threat but they were supplying secrets as late as 1948 when the Soviets were indeed a threat although nominally we did not call them an enemy.They had already taken over Eastern Europe and just as with our “ally” Pakistan, I would expect them to be dealt with more harshly than if they spied for a real ally like Britain. Also, there is no evidence that they would have stopped spying even if we formally entered the cold war which was in its incipient stages.


183 posted on 06/20/2011 3:52:57 PM PDT by chuckee
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To: bvw

Could you please re-phrase what you wrote? I’m not sure if you’re asking a question or just making a statement, and though I saw your correction following this post, I’m not sure the connection you’re making to the Pollard case. Please also let me know if you actually want a response from me.


184 posted on 06/20/2011 3:54:43 PM PDT by OldNewYork
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To: bvw

You are being obtuse and as stupid as FDR in your quacking about the USSR being our allies and therefore giving them the secret to nukes was not worthy of execution.


185 posted on 06/20/2011 3:56:50 PM PDT by Scotsman will be Free (11C - Indirect fire, infantry - High angle hell - We will bring you, FIRE)
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To: bvw

“A crime that wasn’t done isn’t a crime.”
Wrong! Look up conspiracy and attempted crimes.


186 posted on 06/20/2011 3:59:58 PM PDT by Scotsman will be Free (11C - Indirect fire, infantry - High angle hell - We will bring you, FIRE)
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To: OldNewYork

Not really, your response would certainly prove most unsatisfactory in any case old chum.


187 posted on 06/20/2011 4:35:42 PM PDT by bvw
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To: bvw

I thought you might have felt that way. Maybe, when you recover from other people on this thread’s responses to you, you can reconsider.


188 posted on 06/20/2011 4:38:55 PM PDT by OldNewYork
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To: OldNewYork

Recovery? Quite the word, isn’t it?

None needed for myself, old sport.


189 posted on 06/20/2011 4:40:26 PM PDT by bvw
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To: bvw

There, there, brave lad. Keep your chin up.


190 posted on 06/20/2011 4:45:27 PM PDT by OldNewYork
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To: OldNewYork; harmonium

Very well stated!

I’m happy to see the bigoted traitor supporting troll has been zotted. One of them anyway. Sometimes it seems that no matter how many trolls get zotted, there’s always another one ready to step up to the plate and continue the mission.


191 posted on 06/20/2011 7:39:43 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ Þ)
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To: OldNewYork

Look. Life is too short for this. You think I mocked you. Show me what I said. Maybe I did. Who cares? Maybe anyone who you think mocked you should be zotted. Run along. There. Now I mocked you. Tell the moderators.

Re Pollard. I’m no longer ambivalent. Keep him locked up. Reading up on it might be a good idea, but as I said, life is too short. It’s not up to me or you. We’re just football fans trying to decide which team to cheer. Since life is so short, go get one. Mocked you again. Moderators! Eleutheria’s making fun of me! ‘bye.


192 posted on 06/20/2011 9:24:38 PM PDT by Eleutheria5 (End the occupation. Annex today.)
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To: Eleutheria5

You make a good clown, I have to concede that.

I didn’t think you mocked me when I posted to the moderator requesting a decision be made about you and the now-banned other poster. Please, though you say nothing is really this important or worth the time (though that has tended to coincide with things others say that you disagree with), read it again dispassionately, because this is about more than just you or me, and it is actually important if you care about America, even if you’ve left. It is also important to Israel, as I see it, but I don’t have your familiarity with it or qualifications to speak to that. We have had no interaction before this that I can remember. I’m more than fine with us having no interaction after this. Enjoy the life you’re making for yourself. I know I’ll do likewise.


193 posted on 06/20/2011 9:36:03 PM PDT by OldNewYork
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To: OldNewYork

Who got zotted - Harmonium?


194 posted on 06/20/2011 9:51:44 PM PDT by Lmo56 (If ya wanna run with the big dawgs - ya gotta learn to piss in the tall grass ...)
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To: Lmo56

Yes, that’s right.


195 posted on 06/20/2011 9:55:56 PM PDT by OldNewYork
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To: OldNewYork

“read it again...”

I’ve already made up my mind, no thanks to you, now that his presence in the news has become unavoidable. He deserves to stay in jail. There. Now I’ll mock you again. Nyaaa nyaa nyaa nyaa nyaa nyaaa.


196 posted on 06/20/2011 10:02:29 PM PDT by Eleutheria5 (End the occupation. Annex today.)
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To: Eleutheria5

It wasn’t a recommendation about finally making up your mind about Pollard - that’s really your business and you’re right about my not being the policeman of orthodoxy here; it was about not taking this as personally as you seem to have, and giving you the opportunity again now to think about the effect some of what you’ve said, mostly on the other thread, has had on people here who care about this country, America, almost all of whom I’d expect at least hope for the best for Israel.

I’ve been recommended for zotting before at the time of the Madison, Wisconsin leftist-fest, but got to explain myself. I expected if you were required to (and you’ve been here over ten times as long as I have), you would. I listed my concerns openly; most of them were specific to the other poster and addressed as such, but also referred to your earlier Pollard thread, where you posted more. The decision to ban wasn’t mine.


197 posted on 06/20/2011 10:28:30 PM PDT by OldNewYork
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