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Pollard's Family Pleads to Allow Him to Attend Father's Funeral
Arutz Sheva ^ | 18/6/11 | INN Staff

Posted on 06/18/2011 10:29:06 PM PDT by Eleutheria5

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To: harmonium

I don’t give a CRAP what other people got - BOO HOO !!!

If you roll the dice with espionage - you take your chances.

Just because OTHER people got lucky with THEIR punishment DOESN’T mean that Pollard IS ENTITLED to the same consideration ...

OR are you one of THOSE people who FEEL they ARE entitled ... Like getting your mortgage paid by Obama AND free gas for your car.

Actions have CONSEQUENCES - Pollard KNEW that [EVERYONE who gets a clearance is informed of the penalties], KNEW what COULD happen if caught, and NOW is reaping his reward ...


51 posted on 06/19/2011 12:56:00 AM PDT by Lmo56 (If ya wanna run with the big dawgs - ya gotta learn to piss in the tall grass ...)
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To: harmonium
He has done the time

Life inprisonment. If he is still alive, he has NOT done the time.

52 posted on 06/19/2011 12:56:09 AM PDT by fhayek
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To: Lmo56

So you’re saying Pollard put our worldwide eavesdropping operations in jeopardy?

Are you intentionally being sourceless and ironic too?


53 posted on 06/19/2011 12:59:49 AM PDT by harmonium
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To: harmonium

“unsourced anecdotal accusations”

*****

So much for “unsourced allegations” - lets see yours OTHER than the “Jonathan Pollard Cheerleaders” web site ...

Olive, Ronald J. (2006). Capturing Jonathan Pollard: How One of the Most Notorious Spies in American History Was Brought to Justice. Annapolis, Maryland: Naval Institute Press. ISBN 9781591146520.
Blitzer, Wolf (1989). Territory of Lies. New York: Harper & Row. ISBN 0-06-015972-3.
Goldenberg, Elliot (2000). The Hunting Horse. New York: Prometheus Books. ISBN 1-57392-854-2.
Shaw, Mark (2001), Miscarriage of Justice: The Jonathan Pollard Case, Paragon House Publishers. ISBN #1-55778-803-0
[edit] Notes and references1.^ a b “Israel admits it spied on US”. news.bbc.co.uk. 12 May 1998. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/91260.stm. Retrieved 2008-09-06.
2.^ http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3394552,00.html
3.^ http://www.netanyahu.org/forpmnetvisp.html
4.^ a b “Netanyahu And Foe Tangle Over Pollard”. Daily News (New York). January 19, 1999. http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/1999/01/19/1999-01-19_netanyahu_and_foe_tangle_ove.html.
5.^ Johnson, Carrie (December 31, 2008). “Retiree Charged With Passing U.S. Documents to Israel in the 1980s Pleads Guilty”. The Washington Post. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/30/AR2008123003099.html?hpid=sec-nation. Retrieved April 3, 2010.
6.^ http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=asajyAPxODYE
7.^ a b c d e Hersh, Seymour. “Why Pollard Should Never Be Released”. The New Yorker Magazine. January 18, 1999, pp. 26-33
8.^ a b c d Sobran, Joseph. Territory of Lies, book review. National Review, June 16, 1989
9.^ a b c d e f g Olive, Ronald. Capturing Jonathan Pollard. 2006, page 8-11
10.^ a b Bernstein, Adam (November 16, 2006). “Sumner Shapiro, Long-Serving Director of Naval Intelligence”. washingtonpost.com. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/16/AR2006111600153.html. Retrieved 2008-09-06.
11.^ a b c d Olive, Ronald. Capturing Jonathan Pollard. 2006, page 20-2
12.^ Olive, Ronald. Capturing Jonathan Pollard. 2006, page 28
13.^ “Secerets, Lies and Atomic Spies, Jonathan Jay Pollard”. NOVA. January 2002. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/venona/dece_pollard.html. Retrieved 2008-09-18.
14.^ Olive 2006, p.12.
15.^ Olive 2006, p.77-78.
16.^ Olive 2006, p.223.
17.^ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/venona/dece_pollard.html
18.^ Blitzer 1989, p.102-4; 247-8
19.^ Olive 2006, p.44-45.
20.^ a b c Olive, p.44-45
21.^ Blitzer 1989, p.224.
22.^ a b c d Black, Edwin (29 June 2002). “Why Jonathan Pollard is Still in Prison?”. Forward. Archived from the original on 2006-01-07. http://web.archive.org/web/20060107223010/http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.06.28/news.pollard.html. Retrieved 2007-02-24.
23.^ Why Pollard Should Never Be Released, Seymour Hersh, (January 18, 1999) “The Case Against Johnathon Pollard” The New Yorker Magazine (pp. 26-33)
24.^ a b www.trutv.com
25.^ a b c d e f g Olive. pp198-201
26.^ U.S. Jurors Indict An Israeli Officer On Spying Counts. Werner, Leslie Maitland (March 4, 1987) New York Times
27.^ Olive 2006, p.212.
28.^ § 794. Gathering or delivering defense information to aid foreign government, United States Code|18|794(c)) Cornell Law School, Legal Information Institute, U.S. Code Collection
29.^ Pollard: Not A Bumbler, But Israel’s Master Spy
30.^ Goulden, Joseph C. (December 24, 2006). “How a spy was caught and why he still stands to profit”. Archived from the original on 2007-01-02. http://web.archive.org/web/20070102011305/http://www.washingtontimes.com/books/20061223-100359-3556r_page2.htm. Retrieved 2008-09-06.
31.^ a b Olive, Ronald J. Capturing Jonathan Pollard. 2006, page 223
32.^ Olive, Ronald J. Capturing Jonathan Pollard. 2006, page 225
33.^ a b Olive, Ronald J. Capturing Jonathan Pollard. 2006, page 227
34.^ a b c Best, Jr., Richard A.; Clyde Mark (31 January 2001). “Jonathan Pollard: Background and Considerations for Presidential Clemency” (PDF (archived)). Congressional Research Service Report for Congress. The Library of Congress. http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RS20001.pdf. Retrieved 2007-03-07.
35.^ Olive 2006, p. 259.
36.^ “Jonathan Jay Pollard.” Federal Bureau of Prisons. Retrieved on May 5, 2010.
37.^ 747 F. Supp. 797
38.^ United States of America v. Jonathan Jay Pollard, appellant No. 90-3276
39.^ . http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=NewsLibrary&p_multi=DSNB&d_place=DSNB&p_theme=newslibrary2&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0F37F1E2A9E8B589&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM.
40.^ http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1167467689352
41.^ Izenberg, Dan, “State Comptroller: Every Gov’t Since ’96 Tried To Free Pollard, But US Wouldn’t Yield”, Jerusalem Post, Sep 4, 2009, p. 2.
42.^ Lawyer lambasts Pollard report, The Jerusalem Post - Sep 3, 2009
43.^ Document prepared in the Knesset surveying the efforts to release Pollard
44.^ a b c “Pollard’s life sentence doesn’t fit the crime”. Jerusalem Post. 1 November 2010. http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=193473.
45.^ Finer, Jonathan (January 15, 2008). “Bush Trip Revives Israeli Push for Pardon of Spy”. washingtonpost.com. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/14/AR2008011402725.html. Retrieved 2008-09-06.
46.^ Jailed For 23 Years, An Old Spy Asks For a Fresh Start
47.^ Kershner, Isabel (September 21, 2010). “Israelis Float Settlement Deal Involving Spy”. The New York Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/21/world/middleeast/21israel.html?_r=1&ref=world. Retrieved 2010-09-21.
48.^ Four Dems urge Pollard clemency JTA, Sept. 23, 2010
49.^ http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/140740
50.^ Sobelman, Batsheva. “ISRAEL: Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to seek Jonathan Pollard’s release”. LATimes. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2010/12/israel-prime-minister-netanyahu-to-ask-us-to-release-jonathan-pollard.html. Retrieved 22 December 2010.
51.^ http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=205369
52.^ . http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/07/AR2011030702491.html. [dead link]
53.^ The Facts of the Pollard Case, JonathanPollard.org, retrieved 19 October 2008.
54.^ Why Jonathan Pollard got life. David Zwiebel (June 1997) Middle East Quarterly 4:2
55.^ Spy case still makes waves in Israel, Martin Patience (January 15, 2008, BBC News
56.^ Israel And Freedom For Jonathan Pollard, Caroline Glick (April 28, 2005) Jerusalem Post
57.^ Olive, Ronald. Capturing Jonathan Pollard. 2006, page 210
58.^ Tsur, Batsheva (January 21, 1999). “Netanyahu-Barak tiff over Pollard continues”. Jerusalem Post. http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/jpost/access/38257069.html?dids=38257069:38257069&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Jan+21%2C+1999&author=BATSHEVA+TSUR&pub=Jerusalem+Post&desc=Netanyahu-Barak+tiff+over+Pollard+continues&pqatl=google.
59.^ . http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb6672/is_200201/ai_n26142382/. [dead link]
60.^ “MIDEAST ACCORD: THE SPY; As Deal Came Together, a Snag Over Release of an American Spy”. The New York Times. October 24, 1998. http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/24/world/mideast-accord-spy-deal-came-together-snag-over-release-american-spy.html. Retrieved April 3, 2010.
61.^ a b Clinton, Bill. My Life. 2005, page 468
62.^ a b Dershowitz, Alan M. Chutzpah!. 1992, page 291
63.^ Goodenough, Stan (January 8, 2008). “Messaging Bush, Jerusalem renames city square for Pollard”. Jerusalem Newswire. http://www.jnewswire.com/article/2299. Retrieved 2008-09-06.
64.^ Blitzer 1989, p.166-171.
65.^ Fendel, Hillel (4 April 2011). “Meretz Youth to Peres: Bring Pollard Home!”. Israel National News. Arutz Sheva. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/143335. Retrieved 5 April 2011.
66.^ Gil Hoffman. “Mukasey: Commute Pollard’s sentence to time served.” Jerusalem Post. http://www.jpost.com/home/article.aspx?id=200576
67.^ a b c Miskin, Maayana (10 March 2011). “Senator McCain Calls to Release Pollard”. Israel National News. Arutz Sheva. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/142826. Retrieved 11 March 2011.
68.^ Fendel, Hillel (31 March 2011). “GOP Congressman Asks for Pollard Clemency”. Israel National News. Arutz Sheva. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/143260. Retrieved 31 March 2011.
69.^ Olive 2006, p.248.
70.^ See Olive 2006, p.248.
71.^ Margolis, Eric (January 14, 1999). “Jonathan Pollard Was No Jewish Patriot”. The Toronto Sun. Archived from the original on 2008-05-06. http://web.archive.org/web/20080506195607/http://www.aci.net/kalliste/pollard_em.htm. Retrieved 2008-09-06.
72.^ R. T. Naylor (2001). Economic warfare: sanctions, embargo busting, and their human cost. UPNE. p. 168. ISBN 9781555534998. http://books.google.com/books?id=fkcGKb8jLXMC&dq=Embargo+busting&lr=&as_brr=3. Retrieved 2009-11-20.
73.^ “US intelligence expert: Pollard wrongly blamed”. 28 November 2010. http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=196999.
74.^ Olive, Ron (November 20, 2006). “I busted Pollard”. jpost.com. http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1162378442998&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull. Retrieved 2008-09-06.
75.^ Peretz, Martin (2010-12-25) Mr. President: Do Not Free Jonathan Pollard, The New Republic
76.^ Bowman, M.E. “Spike” “The Drumbeats for Clemency for Jonathan Jay Pollard Reverberate Again, ‘Intelligencer: Journal Of U.S. Intelligence Studies’, Winter/Spring, 2011.
77.^ http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-2670110.html
78.^ “Torontonian at centre of espionage tale Is Esther Pollard really the wife of convicted U.S. spy?”. December 8, 1996. http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/thestar/access/18884868.html?dids=18884868:18884868&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Dec+08%2C+1996&author=by+Martin+Regg+Cohn+TORONTO+STAR&pub=Toronto+Star&desc=Torontonian+at+centre+of+espionage+tale+Is+Esther+Pollard+really+the+wife+of+convicted+U.S.+spy%3F&pqatl=google.
[edit] External linksKey US v Jonathan J. Pollard trial documents obtained from the District Court of the District of Columbia
Jonathan Pollard’s Website
American Security Perspective [1]
Israel acknowledges spying on US. BBC News, 12 May 1998
All about Jonathan Pollard
Why Jonathan Pollard is Still in Prison by Edwin Black, published in The Forward and archived in the Internet Archive. A shorter version of this article was published here in the The Jewish Journal of Greater Los Angeles.
CRS Report for Congress RS20001 Jonathan Pollard: Background and Considerations for Presidential Clemency - Federation of American Scientists
Time for a fresh start. Jerusalem Post Nov 22 2009 Jpost.com.


54 posted on 06/19/2011 1:00:48 AM PDT by Lmo56 (If ya wanna run with the big dawgs - ya gotta learn to piss in the tall grass ...)
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To: Lmo56; fhayek

You think he deserves a disproportionate sentencing...why exactly?

Someone mentioned the Rosenbergs as a precedence for such a sentencing...hmmm... noticing a pattern here.


55 posted on 06/19/2011 1:02:04 AM PDT by harmonium
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To: Lmo56

Wikipedia.

A cut and paste from Wikipedia...and you couldn’t even source THAT.


56 posted on 06/19/2011 1:03:29 AM PDT by harmonium
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To: harmonium

I keep repeating that he wasn’t trying to save the world from us evil Americans because you keep pretending that he was. The truth is he was selling our secrets. He is a traitor. I’m going to keep repeating that little factoid too.

You may as well stop trying to deflect by suggesting that various public figures should get the death penalty for breaches of protocol. If Obama was seen shaking the hand of Satan himself it wouldn’t change what the traitor Pollard did one iota.


57 posted on 06/19/2011 1:11:05 AM PDT by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ Þ)
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To: harmonium
A cut and paste from Wikipedia...and you couldn’t even source THAT.

Yup. From Wikipedia - I ONLY do that when someone like you AIN'T worth the time and effort.

You, OTOH, don't have anything but invective cuz you got nothing to back you up - beginning to think I'm in Trollville ...

58 posted on 06/19/2011 1:13:40 AM PDT by Lmo56 (If ya wanna run with the big dawgs - ya gotta learn to piss in the tall grass ...)
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To: harmonium
So you’re saying Pollard put our worldwide eavesdropping operations in jeopardy?

Thats what Cap Weinberger wrote to the judge ...

59 posted on 06/19/2011 1:16:00 AM PDT by Lmo56 (If ya wanna run with the big dawgs - ya gotta learn to piss in the tall grass ...)
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To: BykrBayb

“he wasn’t trying to save the world from us evil Americans because you keep pretending that he was.”

I haven’t argued anything of the sort. If that’s your best defense for why you want the guy dead, you’re very confused.

I’ve clearly said the evil threat was coming from the Arab states it revealed the US armed. It’s an uncomfortable fact. Unless maybe you think Pollard deserves to die for the Osiraq bombing. Well do you?


60 posted on 06/19/2011 1:17:24 AM PDT by harmonium
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To: harmonium
You think he deserves a disproportionate sentencing...why exactly?

There are a RANGE of penalties provided for the unauthorized disclosure of classified information. Pollard basically got the maximum, but he KNEW that it was a possibility when he CHOSE to do it and before he got caught ...

Tell him to write out a "TS" Slip and take it to the Chaplain ...

61 posted on 06/19/2011 1:28:14 AM PDT by Lmo56 (If ya wanna run with the big dawgs - ya gotta learn to piss in the tall grass ...)
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To: harmonium; Jim Robinson

You’re continuing to argue exactly that. You’re accusing the US of being the villains, and the convicted traitor of being a hero, trying to save the world from the evil Americans in league with the Arabs. You continue to make excuses for him selling military secrets to foreign powers, as you paint the US as villains to justify his treason. And what were you trying to hint at regarding the Rosenbergs, as if it wasn’t extremely obvious?


62 posted on 06/19/2011 1:28:31 AM PDT by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ Þ)
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To: Lmo56

“Thats what Cap Weinberger wrote to the judge ... “

No, that’s not what your Wikipedia source from Edwin Black via The Forward says...

Not that you even read the source... which was a 3rd hand anecdotal account from an unnamed source in the court room.

Here’s what Weinberger’s assistant says: “Free Pollard”.
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/oct/28/opinion/la-oe-korb-pollard-20101028


63 posted on 06/19/2011 1:29:18 AM PDT by harmonium
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To: BykrBayb

“trying to save the world from the evil Americans in league with the Arabs. “

How can you deny the US partnered with Saddam and provided chemicals?


64 posted on 06/19/2011 1:32:04 AM PDT by harmonium
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To: harmonium

How can you justify treason against the United States by painting us as the villain?


65 posted on 06/19/2011 1:34:43 AM PDT by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ Þ)
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To: Lmo56

So why do Israeli spies like Pollard get punished absolutely disproportionally when compared to others, even those who’ve done lots and lots of harm?

Nobody is saying to let him off for the crime, but he wasn’t an enemy agent. He didn’t kill any US agents (like some famous spies that got far lesser punishment than Pollard.)


66 posted on 06/19/2011 1:37:48 AM PDT by harmonium
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To: harmonium
Back now - deer in the yard ...

No, that’s not what your Wikipedia source from Edwin Black via The Forward says...

Not that you even read the source... which was a 3rd hand anecdotal account from an unnamed source in the court room.

Knew I would trip you up - from Washington Post 12/8/2010 [NOTE what the judge said]:

Now another key official at the time of Pollard’s arrest, former FBI and Navy lawyer M.E. “Spike” Bowman, is weighing in -- against his release -- in a forthcoming article.

“Since I was the only person who actually touched all aspects of the case I thought it was incumbent on me to lay out the facts,” Bowman, the top legal adviser to Navy intelligence at the time, and who later worked as senior counsel at the FBI and as deputy director of the National Counterintelligence Executive, told SpyTalk.

In a piece written for a forthcoming journal of the Association of Former Intelligence Officers, founded years ago to support the CIA, Bowman notes that there have been “few rebuttals of this escalation of calls for Pollard’s release…mainly because so few were cognizant of the scope of Pollard’s disclosures, or the misuses of those disclosures, and the damage they did to our own operations and sources."

The true extent of the spy’s damage remains locked in government vaults, Bowman writes, “because when a plea agreement was reached, it was no longer necessary to litigate issues that could have exposed the scope of Pollard’s treachery -- and the exposure of classified systems.”

But the retired Navy captain singles out three of Pollard’s leaks, the first being “the daily report from the Navy’s Sixth Fleet Ocean Surveillance Information Facility (FOSIF) in Rota, Spain, a top-secret document filed every morning reporting all that had occurred in the Middle East during the previous twenty-four hours, as recorded by the NSA’s most sophisticated monitoring devices.”

“Probably the most serious disclosure (of those of which we are aware) was the TOP SECRET NSA RAISIN manual, which lists the physical parameters of every known signal [or electronic communication], notes how we collect signals around the world, and lists all the known communications links then used by the Soviet Union,” Bowman writes.

“It is certainly the thing that stood out in the mind of the sentencing judge; particularly when Pollard alleged at sentencing that there really was no harm done. The judge interrupted and brought him up short, pointing specifically to disclosure of the RAISIN manual.”

Bowman also writes that “Pollard disclosed information to the Israelis that could prevent the U.S. from monitoring Israeli activities in the Middle East -- clearly a foreign policy nightmare.”

67 posted on 06/19/2011 1:45:32 AM PDT by Lmo56 (If ya wanna run with the big dawgs - ya gotta learn to piss in the tall grass ...)
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To: BykrBayb

“How can you justify treason against the United States by painting us as the villain?”

I’m sorry if the facts are inconvenient for you.

Pollard HAS done 26+ years of time.

It’s really hard for a patriotic American to look back at mistakes the US made, and depict the revelation of Iraq’s nuclear plans, and operative relations with Osama Bin Laden as deserving of a death sentence.

The only reason you keep playing in absolutes and denying such inconvenient facts speaks to some other deep hatred of some sort or other.


68 posted on 06/19/2011 1:45:50 AM PDT by harmonium
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To: harmonium

He wasn’t an Israeli. He was an American, albeit a traitorous one. The fact that Israel was among the recipients of our secrets does not exonerate him or mitigate the damage he inflicted.


69 posted on 06/19/2011 1:48:28 AM PDT by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ Þ)
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To: Lmo56

“Knew I would trip you up - from Washington Post 12/8/2010 [NOTE what the judge said]:”

Link? Earlier you said the source was Weinberg, now you’re claiming you tripped me up and the source was the Judge?

...and the foreign policy nightmare cited by the judge is that Pollard provided info that “could” prevent the US from spying on Israel. Well, that explains your hypocrisy and blood thirst. Oh, no it doesn’t.


70 posted on 06/19/2011 1:50:08 AM PDT by harmonium
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To: harmonium
So why do Israeli spies like Pollard get punished absolutely disproportionally when compared to others

Again, from the Washington Post:

Hard copies of the documents Pollard stole in 18 months could “fill a room that is six feet by six feet by ten,” Ronald Olive, the top Navy investigator in the Pollard case, told SpyTalk.

"No other spy in the history of the United States stole so many secrets, so highly classified, in such a short period of time," he maintains.

Bowman also takes aim at Korb’s contention that Pollard has been unduly punished, arguing in his open letter to Obama that "the average sentence for Pollard's offence” -- stealing secrets for “friendly” countries -- “is two to four years, and under current guidelines the maximum sentence is 10 years.”

But Bowman, as well as a counterintelligence officer involved in Pollard’s case who insisted on anonymity, says Korb’s math is skewed.

“The supporters who claim that the sentence of Pollard was disproportionate to the crime cite three to four cases where Americans sold or gave documents to non-adversary countries like Saudi Arabia, Ecuador and El Salvador,” the CIA officer said. “These were a handful of secrets, and those who committed the crime were sentenced proportionately. What Pollard's crew has done is to take these handfuls of cases and then extrapolated the sentences saying that Pollard has served far longer than the ‘average’ spy who spied for 'friendly services.' "

In fact, the average sentence for those caught spying for the Russians, not counting the 365-year term given to Jerry A. Whitworth, part of the infamous John Walker family spy ring, was over 36 years. Three spies other than Pollard, including Russian mole Aldrich Ames, were given life sentences.

Of course, Pollard didn’t just spy for Israel, although that was far and away his main benefactor.

“Intelligence officials have unofficially detailed instances of additional disclosures to other nations,” Bowman writes. “These officials said that Pollard had given classified documents to Pakistan, South Africa and two other countries they declined to identify.”

Some the documents Pollard gave Israel ended up in Moscow, according to various reports, but as one investigator in the case told SpyTalk, “there are only two countries that know the facts …Russia and Israel. Which leads me to believe we will never know the truth.”

71 posted on 06/19/2011 1:52:30 AM PDT by Lmo56 (If ya wanna run with the big dawgs - ya gotta learn to piss in the tall grass ...)
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To: BykrBayb

“The fact that Israel was among the recipients of our secrets does not exonerate him or mitigate the damage he inflicted.”

Who said it exonerates him?
It DOES mitigate the damage.

Unless you view Israel as a danger like Cuba, USSR, China, etc. Do you?


72 posted on 06/19/2011 1:53:08 AM PDT by harmonium
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To: harmonium

No - it WAS NOT a third-hand comment, like you said. It was a statement from the trial judge [who interrupted Pollard’s “I didn’t really harm anything” rationalization] who cited Weinberger’s memorandum.

The statement from the judge is part of the sentencing record ...


73 posted on 06/19/2011 1:57:29 AM PDT by Lmo56 (If ya wanna run with the big dawgs - ya gotta learn to piss in the tall grass ...)
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To: Lmo56

Okay, let me teach you what a link to your source should look like.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2010/12/former_top_intelligence_offici.html

There.

See how helpful that is?

Actually, it’s not helpful because the source behind ALL the accusations you keep repeating is Ron Olive, who headed up the team that made the file on Pollard. Meanwhile the main evidence against Pollard was his own confession. That’s it.


74 posted on 06/19/2011 2:01:04 AM PDT by harmonium
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To: harmonium; Jim Robinson

Excuse me? It wasn’t enough for you to paint the US as the villain, now you have to come right out and say that’s a fact? And we deserved the treason committed by Pollard because we gave Iraq nuclear weapons, and we allied ourselves with Osama bin Laden?

And you need to quit accusing FReepers of being Jew haters. You are the only one here who gives a crap about the fact that some of Pollard’s treason for hire benefited Israel.


75 posted on 06/19/2011 2:03:35 AM PDT by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ Þ)
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To: Lmo56

“The statement from the judge is part of the sentencing record ...”

You mean like this one from the dissenting judge, Judge Stephen F. Williams, who stated that “because the government’s breach of the plea agreement was a fundamental miscarriage of justice requiring relief under 28 U.S.C. § 2255, I dissent.” ????? Like that?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:AkOOaUtkjnkJ:ftp.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F2/959/959.F2d.1011.90-3276.html+because+the+government’s+breach+of+the+plea+agreement+was+a+fundamental+miscarriage+of+justice+requiring+relief+under+28+U.S.C.+§+2255,+I+dissent.%22+pollard&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari&source=www.google.com


76 posted on 06/19/2011 2:06:54 AM PDT by harmonium
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To: harmonium

No, it does not mitigate the damage. There is no justification for treason. Whatever your pet cause is, treason is still deserving of the death penalty. Your hero got off easy, so quit whining about him not getting extra privileges.


77 posted on 06/19/2011 2:13:54 AM PDT by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ Þ)
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To: BykrBayb

“And we deserved the treason committed by Pollard because we gave Iraq nuclear weapons, and we allied ourselves with Osama bin Laden?”

See, it’s an inconvenient FACT.

It doesn’t justify Pollard.

I continue to point out he served 26 years for a crime he confessed to. It does however give context, that debunks your attempts to demonize him with such curious blood thirst.

I wish he had acted as a whistleblower instead, because yes, these are dark episodes in our nations history. Spying exists. The US engages in intelligence gathering every day. We have satellites pointed at Israel for that very purpose right now. If you persist on framing this as an evil versus good discussion (that’s you doing that), then I suggest you figure out who made the right choice. Gaining the intelligence and bombing Osiraq was the right thing to do.


78 posted on 06/19/2011 2:15:21 AM PDT by harmonium
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To: BykrBayb

“Whatever your pet cause is, treason is still deserving of the death penalty. “

Name the other spies you want the death penalty for.

See. You’re focused on this particular one for a reason. It’s creepy.

Also creepy...your moral equivalency to equate Pollard with Spies of enemy states whose actions resulted in deaths.


79 posted on 06/19/2011 2:18:20 AM PDT by harmonium
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To: harmonium; Jim Robinson; wagglebee; little jeremiah; DJ MacWoW; metmom
“And we deserved the treason committed by Pollard because we gave Iraq nuclear weapons, and we allied ourselves with Osama bin Laden?”
See, it’s an inconvenient FACT.

Listen troll, the United States does not deserve your brand of justice. You are promoting treason in the wrong place. That crap is welcome at a number of anti-American sites, but not here.

80 posted on 06/19/2011 2:21:17 AM PDT by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ Þ)
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To: BykrBayb

You sound desperate if you’re pretending I’m promoting treason.

Will you explain your moral equivalency to equate Pollard with Spies of enemy states whose actions resulted in deaths.


81 posted on 06/19/2011 2:29:48 AM PDT by harmonium
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To: harmonium
You’re focused on this particular one for a reason.

Because this is the one the thread is about. Some people don't read past the title, but you didn't even read that far. Are you really too lazy to read the title.

It’s creepy.

What's creepy is your defense of an admitted/convicted traitor, and your attempt to deflect to other unrelated topics, and then blame the US for deserving this.

82 posted on 06/19/2011 2:30:51 AM PDT by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ Þ)
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To: harmonium

BS. You have promoted treason throughout this thread. You don’t even bother trying to sugar coat it or conceal it. You’re openly proud of your anti-American sentiments. You said the US deserved it because according to you we sided with the enemies of Israel, so we deserved to have our secrets sold to other nations. There is no defense for your position.


83 posted on 06/19/2011 2:35:03 AM PDT by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ Þ)
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To: BykrBayb; Jim Robinson; wagglebee; little jeremiah; DJ MacWoW; metmom

“Listen troll....”

Look it’s bad enough you can’t defend your disproportionate blood thirst for Pollard (who served time, as he should have) by trying to twist it to call me anti-American, and yadda yadda, all while thinly disguising your own prejudice.... but it’s another to then go ping people uninvolved in this discussion.

Again - Will you explain your moral equivalency to equate Pollard with Spies of enemy states whose actions resulted in deaths?


84 posted on 06/19/2011 2:36:56 AM PDT by harmonium
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To: BykrBayb

“You said the US deserved it because according to you we sided with the enemies of Israel, so we deserved to have our secrets sold to other nations”

So you’re a morally bankrupt liar. Okay. No wonder you can’t fathom how the fact that it turned out this is one case where it was a good thing our secrets got exposed. It benefited the United States as much as anyone.

Oh, and last I heard, Iraq wasn’t just an enemy of Israel....but you’re about a step away from saying what you really want to say finally, aren’t you?


85 posted on 06/19/2011 2:39:54 AM PDT by harmonium
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To: harmonium
Pollard was never indicted for treason. He was never accused of formal damage to the US. He acknowledged guilt, and was indicted for 1 count of passing classified info to an alley - which they were entitled to, according to a Memorandum of Understanding.

We will never know the whole background or how it was prosecuted. I would keep an open mind that it is possible he made a deal and agreed to lesser charges that did not include the death penalty. The fact that he plead guilty and went quietly speaks volumes.

86 posted on 06/19/2011 2:42:26 AM PDT by trebb ("If a man will not work, he should not eat" From 2 Thes 3)
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To: harmonium; Jim Robinson; wagglebee; little jeremiah; DJ MacWoW; metmom

What prejudice? What are you accusing me of? Say it, you coward. You’ve been suggesting it about everyone who defends the US. So come on coward. Say it, you cowardly lying POS.


87 posted on 06/19/2011 2:42:44 AM PDT by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ Þ)
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To: trebb

“The fact that he plead guilty and went quietly speaks volumes.”

He went quietly? Hardly.

Look, I do agree we’ll never entirely know, and yes he did make a deal which one dissenting appeals judge say was breached.

Either way, he deserved to do some time, but the only ones with life sentences gave secrets to enemy states...treating him in their league is an injustice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_spies


88 posted on 06/19/2011 2:48:59 AM PDT by harmonium
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To: BykrBayb

In your distorted world, is it patriotic to wish Pollard kept his mouth shut so Iraq and Syria had achieved their nuclear goals or think he should be treated like a Communist spy?


89 posted on 06/19/2011 2:55:33 AM PDT by harmonium
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To: Eleutheria5

Bury him with his father. Both positions solved.


90 posted on 06/19/2011 4:17:20 AM PDT by hal ogen (1st amendment or reeducation camp?)
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To: Eleutheria5

Pollard huh?
Get a rope/


91 posted on 06/19/2011 4:33:34 AM PDT by Joe Boucher ((FUBO))
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To: harmonium; BykrBayb
If I may jump in....


BykrBayb >>“Listen troll....”

I don't believe you are merely trolling, harmonium. I believe you are honestly trying to convince people to support this traitor.


harmonium>Will you explain your moral equivalency to equate Pollard with Spies of enemy states whose actions resulted in deaths?

Your use of "moral equivalency" is a clear indication that you are distracting from the main points. Fact after fact that gets pointed out to you, you sidestep.

He did not merely "warn Israel"--he was giving classified information to others (fortunately, one of our other allies warned us).

He was not merely acting out of altruism, but admitted he was trying to make money from his thefts. There are allegations he gave material directly to enemies of the US, but it doesn't even have to be true--he had no way of knowing who was getting the information he was giving out to various parties, in any case.

Anyone dealing with espionage knows that his initial payment of $20,000+ plus $40,000/year (let's use today's dollars) was more than peanuts, and got him "on the hook" for future work.

And he gave away far more than "warning Israel to get gas masks"...he gave away secrets on our own espionage networks.

BykrBayb is right. He was paid for his treason.

...and he hasn't paid back that debt.

92 posted on 06/19/2011 5:09:04 AM PDT by Gondring (Paul Revere would have been flamed as a naysayer troll and told to go back to Boston.)
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To: harmonium

When you take a plea deal, it’s not because you weren’t guilty of a more serious crime; it’s because you are hoping for a lighter sentence-—and the alternative if you go to trial on the more serious crime could be much worse.

Apparently he didn’t want to face a jury on the more serious charges he could have been charged with.

Pollard rolled the dice and the judge saw it as more serious than the five year sentence he was hoping for—but it was his choice.

The questions you keep bringing up have to do with his trial and sentencing as though that mattered now. That ship has sailed.

What should be discussed is whether he’d return to prison after a short compassionate parole. If he thinks he was treated unfairly in his trial—and has supporters in Israel’s government—then he probably is a flight risk.

Are you ready to see a fight with Israel over him if he refuses to return and hides out there? Want to put Israel on the spot with the proclivity for anti-Israeli behavior in this administration?

Israel hasn’t started a war over that poor soldier that was captured by the Palestinians and has been illegally held for years. Why? Because one man’s life sometimes has to take a back seat to the considerations of national interest and politics.


93 posted on 06/19/2011 5:43:46 AM PDT by wildbill (You're just jealous because the Voices talk only to me.)
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Yeah, lets let an American traitor/spy who gave vital intelligence to China and Israel for cash during the Cold War that ended up in Russia a chance to leave prison for a funeral.

I am pretty sure he will happily return to jail once the service is over and not flee.


94 posted on 06/19/2011 5:44:35 AM PDT by WaterBoard
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To: harmonium
Really?

March 3, 1987 - Declassified Statement on Jonathan Pollard by Secretary of Defense Caspar W. Weinberger:

"The defendant took it upon himself unilaterally to reverse those policies. In so doing, he both damaged and destroyed policies and national assets which have taken many years, great effort and enormous national resources to secure. Moreover, in light of the defendant’s continued disclosures of sensitive information for publication by the press, there is ample cause to believe that Pollard will continue to divulge classified national defense information without restraint.

I respectfully submit that any U.S. citizen, and in particular a trusted government official, who sells U.S. secrets to any foreign nation should not be punished merely as a common criminal. Rather, the punishment imposed should reflect the perfidy of the individual’s actions, the magnitude of the treason committed, and the needs of national security. Here, although the defendant had executed an oath to protect and safeguard classified information, he betrayed the public trust and the security of the United States in exchange for money. I believe these facts should be weighed heavily in fashioning the sentence to be imposed in order to protect the public confidence in our law, and restore the public’s confidence in our ability and commitment to protect U.S. security."
95 posted on 06/19/2011 5:49:45 AM PDT by WaterBoard
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To: harmonium

Yes, our true colors are the Red, White and Blue. Pollard is a traitor and deserved a traitor’s death. He was shown mercy. No more is warranted nor should it be forthcoming.


96 posted on 06/19/2011 5:51:20 AM PDT by Scotsman will be Free (11C - Indirect fire, infantry - High angle hell - We will bring you, FIRE)
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To: harmonium

HAHAHA! So he accepted a plea bargain and this makes him a hero? I suppose OJ is a saint to you as well.


97 posted on 06/19/2011 5:54:15 AM PDT by Scotsman will be Free (11C - Indirect fire, infantry - High angle hell - We will bring you, FIRE)
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To: Scotsman will be Free

Most folks don’t realize Pollard is eligible for parole in a few years.

“At the time of Pollard’s sentencing there was a rule that mandated parole at thirty years for prisoners like him if they had maintained a clean record in prison. That parole date would be November 21, 2015. Also, Pollard was eligible to apply for parole after eight years and six months, though he has never done so.[35]”

I wonder if the defense of Pollard’s treason would be so spirited if he was a different religion. You don’t see the same support for the Walker Spy ring participants who spied for Russia.


98 posted on 06/19/2011 5:57:12 AM PDT by WaterBoard
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To: Never A Dull Moment

Typical. If someone doesn’t agree with you they are evil, nazis, need to put on an SS uniform, etc ad infinitum, ad nauseum. You have no credibility with that liberal tripe.


99 posted on 06/19/2011 5:58:37 AM PDT by Scotsman will be Free (11C - Indirect fire, infantry - High angle hell - We will bring you, FIRE)
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To: Lancey Howard

The information the U.S. ignored and didn’t share with its allies included Syrian, Iraqi, Libyan and Iranian nuclear, chemical, and biological warfare capabilities. It also included information on ballistic missile development by these countries and information on planned terrorist attacks. Pollard is the only person ever charged with giving information to U.S. allies! Those who gave information to our enemies were given far shorter sentences. The plea bargain promise of the U.S. government was breached in this case. He was to receive a sentence of a few years in proportion to the crime. There has been a lot of anti-Israel falsehoods about Pollard and his case perpetuated. History will call Pollard a hero who placed human safety first, even at the risk of going to jail for his choice to shared information that could save millions of people.


100 posted on 06/19/2011 6:06:13 AM PDT by Seeing More Clearly Now (From 1963 Congressional Record http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm)
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