Skip to comments.Power-grid experiment could confuse electric clocks
Posted on 06/24/2011 11:36:30 PM PDT by John W
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Perhaps there are some devices on the grid that are not up to specs, and by varying the frequency they will be able to locate them?
***Im thinking their idea is that they want to boost the line voltage to compensate for I2R loses caused by peak demand. The only way they can do that without changing the infrastucture is to run their alternators at a higher speed, which ups the line frequency.***
Can’t do it on a generator. They are designed to run at only 60 hz. To boost voltage you increase the magnetism in the generator rotor and the Hz never varies.
In summer you have lots of VARs (volt amp reactive) due to the increase of induction motors on the line. To reduce the VAR load the dispacher can add capacitors to the line load reducing the VAR load. When he runs out of capacitors then the VAR load will increase no matter what you do, even to the point of possibly melting down the 3 phase power lines.
I think it would depend on how fast the frequency could fluctuate and how far. The physics of a large ensemble of generators feeding the grid place considerable physical constraints on these two quantities.
If the claimed limit of 14 seconds per day is a reliable indication, that works out to 162 parts per million. Unless your motor-driven industrial system is doing audio or video work, that amount of deviation is probably trivial.
This brings to mind the time in 1967 I was watching a TV network show originating, on film, from New York City. Suddenly, the image went dim, slowed down noticeably as was evident from the sound track, and then went dark. A few seconds later the local station put up a network trouble slide. This was the great 1967 northeast blackout. The projector was equipped, as most are, with a synchronous motor, so I was actually seeing, for a second or two, the frequency of the entire northeast grid sagging well below 60 Hz before going away completely.
This is about as poorly-written an article as could be expected. Obviously, the journalist doesn’t have a grasp of the situation or the proposal at all.
The standards for operating frequency remain the same - normal operations are within 0.05 HZ of 60 HZ, and typically run from 59.98 to 60.02. It fluctuates during the course of the day as customers bring on loads and generators adjust output to compensate. If the generation output is higher than the load, the frequency will tend to rise as generators speed up. If the load requirement is higher than the generation, the frequency will tend to fall as generators slow down.
The requirements to operate within the same bandwidth remain the same. Automatic load shed requirements at very low frequencies still exist. Automatic Generation Control response characteristics remain the same. Reporting requirements for wide frequency excursions or sustained operation outside of normal limits (typically +/- 0.05 HZ) remain the same.
What is changing is the mandatory requirement to correct accumulated frequency error. When time error accumulates + or - 10 seconds, a time error correction is called. In time correction, the standard frequency is raised 0.02 Hz if the time is negative (slow) or lowered 0.02 Hz if the time error is positive (fast). This allows older synchronous clocks to remain at the correct time.
Fact is, there are very few older synchronous clocks around any more. And odds are, nobody would notice the 10 or 20 second error that had accumulated over time even if there were.
Thats an interesting story about 1967.
So, is there any effect on 60 HZ equipment from this? Corrected or not?
Yep - in my mind, that's a symptom that FR is still sluggish and somewhat broken. Currently the FR clock is running 13 minutes ahead of real time. I'm hitting the post button at 8:33 am.
You nailed it Joe!
Laminations in electric motors and transformers are sized and designed for 60 cycle.
This will probably be a big boost to the power correction industry. Gonna cost a lot of money to “clean up” the power coming into your plant, office, etc.
Headed for another disaster no doubt. After the last one the clock was ok for a very short time upon the fix. Maybe someone understands the connection between the site being “clocked” and the seemingly inevitable collapse-if there is any?
Probably the simple fact that 60 cycle power happens to occur when the AC generator runs at 3600 RPM (1800 RPM for a 2-pole setup, and I've seen some really weird operating RPM ranges for some old hydro generators with many poles). I think that 60 was chosen simply due to the capabilities of rotating machinery at the time that it became "standard".
BTW, operating a generator under load much above 60 cycles will most likely damage the turbine. They're built to run at 60, and much deviation could result in internal resonances that will cause turbine vanes to literally break. There's a lot of engineering that goes into these things, much more than I understand.
Almost the entire load base will increase its power consumption if the line voltage increases. The only exceptions are (1) those loads with automatic voltage regulators based on magnetic principles, and (2) those loads powered by switching power supplies. Interestingly, in these two classes of loads, the current consumption goes down with increasing voltage, holding the power consumption nearly constant. The power companies would love it if all their loads were this way, but that will never be.
The vast majority of the load base would respond to increased line voltage with increased power draw and decreased life.
The only way they can do that without changing the infrastucture is to run their alternators at a higher speed, which ups the line frequency. This doesnt affect most electronic devices because they use various DC power supplies, along with internal timebases.
Upping the line frequency does not have any direct effect on either the line voltage or the power consumption of the loads on that line, as long as it is kept within limits, say (for North America) 57 to 63 Hz.
It is true that with the advent of computerized everything, fewer and fewer line-powered devices depend on an exact frequency or voltage these days. Electronic appliances (or their power supplies) often work from 100 to 240 VAC and from 47 to 63 Hz, so if they have any need for a time base, they get off an internal crystal oscillator, or a WWV or GPS receiver.
But I should emphasize that TVs, computers, and smartphones are still a small fraction of the entire demand. Think motors and furnaces in steel mills, and HVAC loads everywhere.
Doubtful, since the only thing changing is the requirement to correct the accumulated time error. Experience tells me that typically, there will be 3-5 time error corrections a month. More often than not, they are to correct a slow time error ( - seconds). The requirements to maintain frequency still remain the same. They just aren't going to require the small accumulated errors that occur over time.
Semiconductor wafer fab lines may be the worst case. A power outage there can break equipment and spoil almost all wafers in process. That could be hundreds of millions of dollars lost from a single outage.
Scarce wonder that a wafer fab will spend, say, 20 million on a complete factory UPS--that is, about 1 percent of the entire plant investment.
Since you said MHz there, it brought to mind the fact that the FedGov has already done something like this with the forced transition from analog to digital TV. (Not actually Obama's fault, for once.)
BTW, the reason for 400 Hz in aircraft was to reduce the size of the (heavy) power transformers. The ones designed for 400 Hz can be a lot smaller, although you pay for this in that they also run hotter, due to hysteresis losses in the cores.
Those 400 MHz generators are called radios. :=) I'm sure that an extra "M" slipped in there.
Yes, 400 Hz power is common in areas where there's a benefit to using the higher frequency which allows for smaller motors, transformers, and the like.
Thousands of pump jacks, pulling oil from the depths, are powered by electric motors. Those motors aren't cheap.
The oil industry remains, despite the open and numerous attacks by the Obama Administration, the bright and shining economic engine driving relative prosperity in those few areas independent of government jobs which have not been dragged into the swirling vortex of the Obama economy.
You’re welcome. I can’t say the information was a complete surprise but it’s presentation got my attention.
I’m glad it provided you too with some additional insight into the UNrelenting forces arayed against US.
SatinDoll, methinks that even if/when we get grid free, the technocrats/globalists/whatever will still be looking for complete control over US.
I think it might be in their genes. <;^(
Devastating EMP effects without having to set anything off.
They are doing everything possible to create chaos and despair in the name of the “common good”.
It amazes me how few people it takes to cause so much misery.
It’s not paranoia if they’re really out to get you.
You haven’t changed your clock to match Freeper Standard Time. FST
I’m such a dummy early in the morning, duh! Yeah I meant hertz.
What do you make of the above article, do you think they are related?
That needs to be done, especially in light of all the subsidized alternative energy projects out there which just aren't reliable to maintain continued output over time (wind, solar, etc.)
If those are going to be integrated into the grid, the grid is going to need to be modified to carry not only that power, but any compensatory power to fill in the gaps when those systems underperform.
What the Times article describes is more the equivalent of 'wargaming' scenarios in order to be able to plan future development.
Yes, more malevolent things could be written in, but this may well be benign.
It seems it would harm our appliances.
Well, Red China will be happy because we’ll have to buy more.
Thx SJ, this subject is definitely over my head. So, I appreciate your help and information.
Thanks. I know a little. I am sure there are others here more knowledgeable than I am. That’s the beauty of this site, though, misconceptions get cleared up by people who work with things every day.
So, assuming the Hz, MHz thing is a mistake, WTF are you talking about?
Military aircraft use 400HZ, not 400MHZ.
But what's magic about those RPMs when the dynamos were being driven by steam engines? They didn't seem to have any trouble running at, say, 200 or 400 RPM to make 16.6666 cps. If anything, it would reduce bearing friction loss and operating life. Maybe that's actually the reason why they used (and in certain places like electric railroads still use) the lower frequencies.
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