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Conservative revolt casts doubt on House GOP plan
Yahoo ^ | 7/26/11 | Jim Kuhnhenn and Andrew Taylor - AP

Posted on 07/26/2011 10:30:19 AM PDT by NormsRevenge

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Conservative Republicans on Tuesday balked at House leaders' pleas to stop whining and back their plan to slash spending and increase the nation's borrowing ability, throwing into doubt the GOP's proposal to rescue the nation from an unprecedented government default.

...

Flanked by conservative colleagues, Rep. Jim Jordan, R-Ohio, told reporters he could not back the Boehner proposal and said it doesn't have the votes to pass. In a two-step plan, Boehner is pressing for a vote on Wednesday and a second vote Thursday on a balanced-budget amendment to the Constitution.

"We think there are real problems with this plan," said Jordan, who heads the Republican Study Group. ..

"If I had to vote right now, my vote would be no," said Rep. Steve Southerland, R-Fla.

(Excerpt) Read more at finance.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Extended News; Government; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: boehner; cantor; conservative; doubt; housegop; republican; revolt
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 07/26/2011 10:30:21 AM PDT by NormsRevenge
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To: NormsRevenge

If this fails due to lack of GOP support, the GOP owns it. As it stood w/CCB, Obama would own it.

Boehener, who has been doing well overall, should have expected this. On the other hand, while there are some legit issues with this proposal, it would have been better if they could have privately spoken with Boehner instead of coming out publicly against it.


2 posted on 07/26/2011 10:32:47 AM PDT by RockinRight (If we're "teabaggers" then they're "d-baggers.")
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To: NormsRevenge

I’ve always found accusing someone that I’m trying to persuade of whining to be a very effective approach to winning them over.


3 posted on 07/26/2011 10:35:32 AM PDT by Arm_Bears (I'll have what the gentleman on the floor is drinking.)
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To: NormsRevenge
"...and back their plan to slash spending..."

The problem is it does not slash spending. It only cuts 6 billion and only talks about further cuts, which, given the history going back to Reagan, is meaningless .

They should have called Reid's "dead on arrival" bluff with CCB.
4 posted on 07/26/2011 10:38:39 AM PDT by verklaring (Pyrite is not gold))
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add this to the mix..

Cantor to GOP: Quit ‘whining’ and vote...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2754106/posts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2754103/posts


5 posted on 07/26/2011 10:39:59 AM PDT by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi ... Godspeed .. Monthly Donor Onboard .. Obama: Epic Fail or Bust!!!)
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To: RockinRight
If this fails due to lack of GOP support, the GOP owns it. As it stood w/CCB, Obama would own it.

EXACTLY!

Bonehead should demand that the Senate vote on and discuss the CCB plan! Re-pass the CCB (with deeper cuts if possible) and send that over to the Senate! Every time they fail to discuss or work on the plan, then re-pass with deeper cuts and then re-submit the plan!

WASH/RINSE/REPEAT! WASH/RINSE/REPEAT!
6 posted on 07/26/2011 10:40:54 AM PDT by ExTxMarine (PRAYER: It's the only HOPE for real CHANGE in America!)
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To: RockinRight

“it would have been better if they could have privately spoken with Boehner instead of coming out publicly against it”

Shouldn’t Boehner have spoke with the conservatives first before publicly offering a plan that cuts spending 6B (cuts beyond FY12 will never happen) and raises the debt limit 1000B?

“some legit issues with this proposal”

I’d say there are major, major, issues with the proposal.


7 posted on 07/26/2011 10:41:08 AM PDT by teg_76
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To: RockinRight

This deal, if the conservative freshmen vote for it, will be the vehicle in which the DC Hacks get rid of the principled freshmen class. Bonehead and the DC Hacks know this well. As Trent Lott said not too long ago: “We don’t need anymore Demint’s”( Which means DC does not want more conservatives.

Instead of taking out RINO’s, this deal is a trap for conservatives.
And Bonehead and the DC Elites know this.


8 posted on 07/26/2011 10:41:12 AM PDT by tennmountainman
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To: Arm_Bears

Yep - for some reason, talks w/ the missus always break down if I throw in that description...


9 posted on 07/26/2011 10:41:50 AM PDT by jonno (Having an opinion is not the same as having the answer...)
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To: RockinRight
You said it..and that's what's confusing me...

I differ with you on the Boehner plan..but that's not the key point..you think they could have got a head count BEFORE unrolling it..

Remember, there are FOUR possible outcomes:

1. It passes the House, with at least218 GOP votes
2. It passes the House, but with a majority of the GOP caucus, and only because of Dem votes
3. It passes the House, but with LESS than a majority of the GOP caucus, and only because of Dem votes
4. It fails to pass the House, because GOP votes overwhelmingly against it..and there aren't enough Dem votes to get it passed.

Three of the Four options really suck..

10 posted on 07/26/2011 10:43:01 AM PDT by ken5050 (Save the earth..it's the ONLY planet with CHOCOLATE!!!)
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To: RockinRight
The RATS own the debt and deficit. The business of prioritizing payments to avoid default rests with the Treasury...an Executive Branch dept under Obama. If Treasury allows a default, Obama owns it. The only acceptable fix is massive spending cuts. No increase in taxes. No increase of the credit limit. If we don't cut enough, a downgrade is inevitable.
11 posted on 07/26/2011 10:43:01 AM PDT by Myrddin
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To: NormsRevenge
Conservative Republicans on Tuesday balked at House leaders' pleas to stop whining and back their plan to slash spending...

Slash spending? 6B cut is still a HUGE increase in debt.

and increase the nation's borrowing ability, throwing into doubt the GOP's proposal to rescue the nation from an unprecedented government default.

It is not going to be a default. Just damn.

12 posted on 07/26/2011 10:43:45 AM PDT by Principled
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To: tennmountainman

Let it default. From what I’ve heard, the government takes in over $280 Billion a month and is committed to pay out about $250 Billion a month. They have plenty of money coming in so a default won’t happen. If this is true and the President orders the Treasury not to pay SS, military pay and veterans benefits, impeach him.


13 posted on 07/26/2011 10:45:19 AM PDT by RC2
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To: NormsRevenge

I just listened to Boehener on the radio tell Rush Limbaugh that meaningful cuts won’t be possible because of all the baby boomers retiring, and that the cuts for 2012 are 7 Billion, instead of 6 Billion (Like that makes it OK), and that Obama gets his Trillion Dollar spending spree money now and we will wait years if not forever for any cuts, because that’s the way it’s done in Washington.

That does it for me. I want Boehener fired with the rest of them, and I want the government to undergo a limited shutdown for the duration of Obamas remaining term. They should be cutting a Trillion a year and de-funding agency after agency. Instead we are being offered chump change that will never materialize and not a single significant cut to ANY agency whatsoever.

It’s enough to make me want to vote for Ron Paul! (Expletive deleted)

Stop the madness!


14 posted on 07/26/2011 10:50:16 AM PDT by EasySt (2012... Sometimes you have to flush twice.)
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To: NormsRevenge

Once again, the MSM tries to divide our side. I listen to nothing they say!!! Let us see what develops. IMHO, this whole “drop dead” Obama charade is bogus!!! My position would be no debt increase whatsoever. Shucks, I could go to Washington and in one week get the USA living on the current tax revenues. How?, Flat Tax, USPS goes private, Dept. of Education eliminated, waste, corruption misuse of Federal funds, etc. etc. Just bring an ordinary housewife to DC, and she will have the ship running with a surplus without whacking Social Security & Medicare. Medicaid needs a severe slashing, and, every working American rich or poor will be made to pay the Flat Tax. Matter of fact, we might go with a national sales tax, which would even be better!!! On and on and on!!!


15 posted on 07/26/2011 10:51:31 AM PDT by JLAGRAYFOX
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To: tennmountainman

Oh so TRUE!

“Instead of taking out RINO’s, this deal is a trap for conservatives.
And Bonehead and the DC Elites know this.”

Some understand whats going on and some do not. Now is the time to start a real regaining in of the federal government, Let her shut down or cut by 50% to start with!


16 posted on 07/26/2011 10:52:34 AM PDT by jafojeffsurf (Return to the Constitution)
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To: NormsRevenge
Conservative Republicans on Tuesday balked at House leaders' pleas to stop whining

Wow, it only took them 12 words to start editorializing their article. Why use the word whining? The MSM is so transparent.

17 posted on 07/26/2011 10:53:46 AM PDT by SampleMan (If all of the people currently oppressed shared a common geography, bullets would already be flying.)
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To: NormsRevenge
Conservative Republicans on Tuesday balked at House leaders' pleas to stop whining

Wow, it only took them 12 words to start editorializing their article. Why use the word whining? The MSM is so transparent.

18 posted on 07/26/2011 10:53:59 AM PDT by SampleMan (If all of the people currently oppressed shared a common geography, bullets would already be flying.)
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To: EasySt

They are rearranging deck chairs on the titanic. They are not going to help you. The ship is going down.

I highly recommend finding a hammer and some nails, grabbing a few of those deck chairs, and making your own life raft, because there also are not enough of those.

This time, we are all gonna be on our own and responsible for our own situation. Do not look to the past as a clue to our future. They are two worlds as different as 1938 Poland was different from 1940 Poland.

Prepare to live under different economic rules as though they were already in force.


19 posted on 07/26/2011 10:55:03 AM PDT by RobRoy (The US today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: SampleMan

My mistake, he did call them whiners.


20 posted on 07/26/2011 11:02:02 AM PDT by SampleMan (If all of the people currently oppressed shared a common geography, bullets would already be flying.)
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To: ExTxMarine

Every time they fail to discuss or work on the plan, then re-pass with deeper cuts and then re-submit the plan!

My thoughts exactly! This is *We the People* time. I hope and pray our Tea Party freshman understand the mandate and position of power they possess. We'll reinforce them in 2012, but they need to hold the line today. No caving. No concessions to the anti-Americans. And if RINO's favor establishment crony'ism, the Tea Party targets them in the next election cycle. We are cleaning out our closet.


21 posted on 07/26/2011 11:02:09 AM PDT by so_real ( "The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.")
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To: EasySt

“I just listened to Boehener on the radio tell Rush Limbaugh that meaningful cuts won’t be possible because of all the baby boomers retiring”

I heard it too. If this is how the DC Elites think, a collapse of the U.S. is coming for sure.


22 posted on 07/26/2011 11:04:48 AM PDT by tennmountainman
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To: verklaring

Bingo!
The republicans are playing the baseline budgeting game like they did in the 90s. The party will not survive this time.
My prediction: The GOP candidate loses in 2012, the GOP candidate finishes 3rd in 2016 (behind the dems and whatever will replace the repubs) and the GOP will not exist as a national party in 2020.

REPUBLICANS: ITS TIME TO FIGHT!


23 posted on 07/26/2011 11:06:18 AM PDT by axxmann (If McCain is conservative then I'm a freakin' anarchist.)
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To: EasySt

Putting it as plainly as I can... Boehner’s plan sucks - big time! I just listened to him explain it on Rush’s show. Unfortunately, it sounds like that brief spine he’s grown recently in standing up to Obama is now beginning to melt away. I’m sorry, but cuts 10 years out = NO CUTS! They’ll never happen! This is NOT acceptable! No way - no how!


24 posted on 07/26/2011 11:07:25 AM PDT by navydad
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To: EasySt

Boner needs to go, if thats the best he can do.


25 posted on 07/26/2011 11:15:26 AM PDT by edge10 (Obama lied, babies died!)
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To: NormsRevenge
I can't really feel much confidence in what is "reported" in the "article" at the link. Besides the "information" on conservatives, Republicans and Boehner, there is a picture of zero and an ad encouraging people to sign up for zero's 2012 campaign! Ha ha ha! Talk about propaganda!

And, people, do not fall for the Dems and the "media"'s attempt to spin any failure of increasing the debt ceiling on Repubs('cuz that's really all the Dems want, so they can spend more money).

26 posted on 07/26/2011 11:18:26 AM PDT by jeffc (Prayer. It's freedom of speech.)
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To: EasySt

I also heard Boehner on the Limbaugh Show. All of the good things he said last night have been dashed by the B.S. he served up an hour ago. A pitiful $6 billion in cuts in 2012?!? Hey, Speaker Boehner, you’ll be spending $1,500 billion more than you’ll be taking in in 2012, you imbecile! That’s all the cuts you can come up with?!?

I’ve had it with Speaker Boehner. No confidence. He is surrendering when he has the high ground, an enemy in retreat and his people on the verge of victory. Simply pathetic.


27 posted on 07/26/2011 11:19:43 AM PDT by BrewingFrog (I brew, therefore I am!)
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To: NormsRevenge

From what I understood from Boner, Obama gets his spending now...we get our spending cuts at some point in the future.

No deal, Boner.

A promise from you to me doesn’t mean sh!t, pal.


28 posted on 07/26/2011 11:20:44 AM PDT by chris37 (representative)
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To: NormsRevenge

There’s a fine line between being a RINO, and just accepting reality as to what will pass.

Too many conservatives, and I admit I am sometimes guilty of this, want all or nothing, right now. I challenge some of the people around FR to go to Congress and try to get a real spending cut passed - or any bill - it’s not easy.

Instead, get what we can now, and do it in a way that WEAKENS Obama so he’s not re-elected. If we fail miserably and/or hand him a victory next fall, not much is going to matter, nor will it if we lose the House and/or fail to capture the Senate.

This didn’t happen overnight and won’t be fixed overnight, either. We do need to minimize any increase in the debt ceiling, and I also think we are perilously close to the edge, but trying too hard and failing could cause us to fall off the cliff without another chance to try to fix things.


29 posted on 07/26/2011 11:21:36 AM PDT by RockinRight (If we're "teabaggers" then they're "d-baggers.")
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To: RockinRight

I’m perfectly fine with going over the cliff.

Bring it on, we’ve earned it, to say the least.

One way or another, this country and its voters need to learn the consequences of our ignorant voting.


30 posted on 07/26/2011 11:24:25 AM PDT by chris37 (representative)
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To: EasySt

31 posted on 07/26/2011 11:26:10 AM PDT by Bobalu (He who is compassionate to the cruel will ultimately become cruel to the compassionate)
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To: verklaring

It doesn’t really cut that. It cuts from the proposed increased base line. Not one proposal being voted on really cuts anything. They ALL increase spending by TRILLIONS of dollars.

We are being screwed!


32 posted on 07/26/2011 11:26:35 AM PDT by SUSSA
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To: chris37

“I’m perfectly fine with going over the cliff.

Bring it on, we’ve earned it, to say the least.

One way or another, this country and its voters need to learn the consequences of our ignorant voting.”

Amen, We get what we deserve as a nation. Its time to take our medicine and right this ship. Without drastic changes back to the founding principles we loss everything not just some of our rights and liberties. We are selling our futures now!


33 posted on 07/26/2011 11:29:28 AM PDT by jafojeffsurf (Return to the Constitution)
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To: chris37

So let the ignorant ones live the crash, why should we? We didn’t cause this...


34 posted on 07/26/2011 11:31:01 AM PDT by RockinRight (If we're "teabaggers" then they're "d-baggers.")
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To: tennmountainman
As Trent Lott said not too long ago: “We don’t need anymore Demint’s”( Which means DC does not want more conservatives.

Trent Lott also said of this last batch of Republican conservatives that as soon as they got to Washington the establishment would convert them. Lott is the typical inside the beltway career politician turned lobbyist. When Henry Hyde and the house impeached Slick Willie and sent the process to the Senate for disposal, Lott told them they were not going to "Drop this in my lap!", meaning he was not going to take the heat. He also, when the House was split 50-50 but the Republicans had the Pres.-VP spots also, meaning it was technically 51-50 Republicans, Lott, the Senate leader, said in order to be fair he would split the committee chairmanships equally among Dems and Reps. Lott is what is wrong with Washington.

35 posted on 07/26/2011 11:32:26 AM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot (I retain the right to be inconsistent, contradictory and even flat-out wrong!)
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To: tennmountainman

Spot on.

This is about the one party system against the Tea Party rebels.


36 posted on 07/26/2011 11:33:53 AM PDT by Hostage (The revolution needs a spark. The Constitution is dead.)
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To: Bobalu

That cartoon really sums it up brilliantly!


37 posted on 07/26/2011 11:34:13 AM PDT by navydad
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To: Mind-numbed Robot

I am old enough to remember that well. What a loser Lott was.


38 posted on 07/26/2011 11:35:12 AM PDT by tennmountainman
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To: RobRoy; All
They are rearranging deck chairs on the titanic. They are not going to help you. The ship is going down.

I have to say that I can't argue with your statements, not one bit. I know that there are plenty around here that will endeavor to keep everyone optimistic, and I can understand why. Heck, before the 2008 election I was pretty much a brimming optimist for 50 years. And no, I'm not fool enough to think that it all went down hill since then. But I was basically "clueless" as to what had been going on for decades, I was simply ignorant of the facts and reality. So as a combination of spending the past few years reading and studying (with a great deal of the sources and materials being found here on FR) so that I have a better picture of what has really been going on for longer than I have been alive, and seeing how intensely the destruction has been ramped up by this evil administration in the past few years, I really don't see any reason to remain optimistic. (I suppose I can say that I am somewhat optimistic that enough patriots and our children can survive to re-start the republic after the crash, but that is about it.)

I simply don't see how this country and national economy can survive much longer. The amount of Debt is staggering at this point, and none of these discussions even begin to address the real story (which includes tens of Trillions more in "unfunded liabilities"). And this is just the fedgov picture, add in the rest of the real debt at state and local levels and you can quickly see an unsolvable problem.

We have allowed fedgov to grow into a mammoth, totally unsupportable, level. The current level of annual deficit spending (approx $1.65 T) that is projected to continue into the future does nothing but make the overall problem worse and worse. And here we sit, both sides essentially agreeing to increase the "debt limit" and bickering over the size of (drop in the ocean) "cuts" that are basically lessening the rate of increase in spending for all intents and purposes.

For this national economy to survive in its current (or more properly its intended) state, MASSIVE CUTS at all levels of government are required. And I'm sorry, I just don't see the will in place in our body politic to ever take even one tiny step in that direction. And, truth be told, I don't think that these steps could be undertaken quickly enough to have any real effect, without the entire society and culture dissolving into chaos and destruction (such is the sad, but real, condition of a society that has grown increasingly dependent on the government teat over several generations). government has been allowed to morph and grow into an unrecognizable behemoth that could barely be traced to its Constitutional roots at this point in time. In my opinion, I would venture to say that 99 out of 100 functions performed by fedgov at the present are un-Constitutional and un-necessary. (In the "best" cases there are merely wasteful, in most cases they are pathogenically harmful.)

So, I am sorry but I don't see any possible outcome other that a total crash and re-set. The only question is the timing and nature of it. Personally I would rather deal with it NOW, in a hard and furious manner; let's get it over with so that our children will have (at least a chance of) an opportunity to get started on rebuilding. Seeing this body politic just continue to kick it down the road a bit more each time is becoming insufferable; how much longer do any of us want to keep "surviving" in an ever worsening environment? Especially when we KNOW what the ultimate outcome must be?

39 posted on 07/26/2011 11:36:23 AM PDT by zzeeman ("We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality.")
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To: NormsRevenge
A $6 billion cut for fiscal 2012 out of a budget of more than $3 trillion?

...and this proposal comes from OUR side?

Politics in America is hopeless.

America is going down the tubes.

Get yourself ready because nobody is gonna answer 911 when this dying monster sinks like a rock.

40 posted on 07/26/2011 11:38:38 AM PDT by NoControllingLegalAuthority (What this country needs is an enema.)
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To: chris37
We are definitely going over the falls AND NOT INSIDE A BARREL.

Ecclesiastes 3

(KJV)

1To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

4A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

5A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

6A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

41 posted on 07/26/2011 11:47:13 AM PDT by NoControllingLegalAuthority (What this country needs is an enema.)
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To: zzeeman

Amen!

One of the messages I have been trying to give our Tea Party Group. We need to do the right things Cut, Cut, Cut, but no matter what things are way out of hand and major problems are on their way. We should tackle them now because they only grow exponentially with time as we try to fend it off with more fake money and lies to ourselves.


42 posted on 07/26/2011 11:57:41 AM PDT by jafojeffsurf (Return to the Constitution)
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To: zzeeman
So, I am sorry but I don't see any possible outcome other that a total crash and re-set. The only question is the timing and nature of it. Personally I would rather deal with it NOW, in a hard and furious manner; let's get it over with so that our children will have (at least a chance of) an opportunity to get started on rebuilding. Seeing this body politic just continue to kick it down the road a bit more each time is becoming insufferable; how much longer do any of us want to keep "surviving" in an ever worsening environment? Especially when we KNOW what the ultimate outcome must be?

Nice post. I agree with what you said, but I think you are too optimistic.

You left out a key part of what happens if the debt ceiling is NOT raised:

TREASURY is responsible for prioritizing what does and does not get paid if the debt ceiling is not raised. That is part of the executive branch.

In other words, OBAMA gets to decide what does and does not get paid. That will give him far more control over the federal government than any President has ever had, and far more control than we have ever imagined in our worst nightmares.

Thus far Obama's "negotiations" have been a joke. Either he knows nothing whatsoever about how to negotiate (which is possible), or he believes not raising the debt ceiling will be a win for him.

Perhaps the incredible power he will suddenly gain is why.

43 posted on 07/26/2011 12:01:00 PM PDT by EternalHope (You can't make a deal with the Devil, or reach across the aisle to Obama.)
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To: zzeeman

Even Dagney Taggart eventually came around (Atlas Shrugged spoiler).

But I will add a couple of things complicating this whole thing and why I believe there is no “human” solution:

First, Greece is trying to do the right thing, though not nearly enough, and yet look at the rioting, etc. It is fear of “the people” that is keeping the government from doing the right thing. We have a HUGE entitlement class in this country. If we really cut back on services they would feel empowered like never before to take “what’s theirs” through Watts style riots all over the country.

Second, if the government drastically cuts spending, what will be eliminated is the jobs that spending is going to. IOW, the government is “too big to shrink”. It is the country’s biggest employer and if it does severe layoffs it would explode the unemployment figures to unheard-of proportions.

Everything must happen gradually for it to be relatively painless. That is why it is best for a car to GRADUALLY come to a complete stop from 70 mph over hundreds of feet. When it does it in 30 feet, someone is gonna get a bloody nose. We only have 30 feet. A “gradual” braking is not gonna help us here.

This is gonna leave a mark.


44 posted on 07/26/2011 12:01:08 PM PDT by RobRoy (The US today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: NoControllingLegalAuthority

>>...and this proposal comes from OUR side?<<

It officially stopped being “my” side when McCain became the Republican candidate. The two parties now are the equivalent of a parent giving a child two choices for bedtime: 7:00 and 7:05.

I wanna stay up until ten, and the constitution grants me that right.

I am so done with BOTH parties.


45 posted on 07/26/2011 12:03:52 PM PDT by RobRoy (The US today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: RockinRight

As I mentioned in a previous post, a “gradual” solution will not work now. It’s too late for that. We are like a person who is 60 and just now deciding to start saving for retirement. A hundred bucks a month ain’t gonna cut it. Something drastic (and pretty much impossible) is gonna be required - or else.


46 posted on 07/26/2011 12:06:33 PM PDT by RobRoy (The US today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: RockinRight

>>So let the ignorant ones live the crash, why should we? We didn’t cause this...<<

Something a Jew in Poland (or Germany) might have said in 1941.

Life is not fair. We seem to be the first generation ever to exist that does not fully understand the ramifications of that simple reality.


47 posted on 07/26/2011 12:08:19 PM PDT by RobRoy (The US today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: teg_76

You seem to think a cut of 0.17% isn’t all that big...

< / sarcasm >

The truth is that NOBODY in DC is serious about cutting anything!


48 posted on 07/26/2011 12:09:56 PM PDT by Mr Rogers
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To: NormsRevenge

Just shut the overly large intrusive all encompassing federal gub down.
For a day,
a week,
a year.
And see if anyone notices.
See if anyone really gives a damn.
Cept of course those who derive their livelyhood off the dole.


49 posted on 07/26/2011 12:10:52 PM PDT by Joe Boucher ((FUBO))
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To: chris37

"....I say, 'Let 'em crash'!"

50 posted on 07/26/2011 12:10:55 PM PDT by dfwgator
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