Posted on 07/27/2011 6:08:35 PM PDT by dragnet2
The perception is real. If your old enough, ask yourself when in the early 1950s, 1960s or 1970s law enforcement routinely stormed homes, with heavily armed, paramilitary police, wearing armor, using armored vehicles, dressed in paramilitary uniforms, routinely shooting the family pets, homeowners, and sending rounds into neighbors homes, etc etc.
A few decades ago, it just didn't happen.
I don't mind LE using force against murderers, kidnappers, or extremely violent, armed individuals, but what were seeing today, such as this story on this thread, is very different.
Not to mention the fact that attorneys representing the City of Fullerton have *already* approached the Dad and offered him, $900,000.00 civil settlement to quickly make him go away.
Being reported a black Fullerton cop nicknamed the Terminator is one of the Fullerton police officers.
So it could turn out that one policeman was using too much force.
So, you're now suggesting it could only be one officer?
Question #1. Tell me, how is that possible, when multiple witnness statements say it was 6 officers beating one unarmed mentally ill individual?
Question#2. Tell me Berlin Freeper, are you suggesting it's reasonable for 5 officers to just stand and watch one officer beat and unarmed individual to death?
You better hope that is not the case because it would make you a monster
Funny, all this regarding this event, and you suggest I'm the monster.
What a piece of work you are.
Please address the two questions.
Thanks!
“Considering how wrong you were when SWAT was cleared in Arizona...”
Cleared? How were they “cleared”?
They forced their way into a home within seconds of first knock, then emptied their weapons into a guy who had been stopped & questioned by police before without ANY offer of violence. So why the SWAT team?
Is it now wrong, in your America, to grab a gun when investigating loud noises outside your home?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP0f00_JMak&feature=youtu.be
Mr. Berlin Freeper only brought this up, from another thread, as he got his teet caught in the ringer regarding that incident in Pima County too. He's clearly is still feeling the wrath of the majority that were outraged. That incident alone was enough to make the majority of Americans recoil. Yet there was Mr. Berlin Freeper, again suggesting that event reasonable and justified.
Some blindly defend law enforcement, even when there is absolutely nothing to defend.
- Cleared? How were they “cleared”?
Your perception of events in Arizona are very badly off from what actually occurred.
dragnet2 the Cop Hater, knows that very well but lacks even a modicum of integrity to correct you in the slightest way, in his reply BS reply to you.
If anything, dragnet2 will allow for you to continue badly misstating what occurred because your flagrant errors feed his damaged psyche, which needs to be fed a regular dose of cop hating.
Here are your errors:
— The police played a siren and repeatedly announced themselves and knocked on the door before having to bang the door open, because instead of opening the door the suspect positioned himself in the hall with his weapon.
— There was an investigation that determined the suspect pointed his weapon at SWAT.
In my America, people answer the door and never point their weapon at the police.
I brought that incident up, to include here because it shows how a Cop Hater like dragnet2 will never accept any investigation that does not have a forgone conclusion which says the police are guilty.
Lastly, if you are going to post about events to others then you should know the most basic facts. If you want to continue to deny the police were cleared then show me where they were arrested, officially faulted, reprimanded, disciplined, anything - anything at all that makes your post to me something other than a complete waste of my time . Thank you.
Answer 1: Could you list for me witness statements taken under oath?
For a long time now you have been manically alluding to witness statements without actually providing any. Bear in mind I am talking about affidavits, not statements supplied from the Drive-by Media.
Answer 2: It is reasonable, that since the take down only lasted 7 minutes, that the one policeman who had to handle the resisting suspect at the head is the one that may have used too much force while the others trying to grab kicking legs and flailing arms were otherwise occupied.
Or are you saying a person goes into a coma because someone grab his legs?
Is that what you are saying?
Oh yes! You would say that as long as it means a policeman is guilty.
As long as it means a policeman is guilty you will say anything!
- “Funny, all this regarding this event, and you suggest I’m the monster.”
If the charges come in against anything less than six policemen, then remember me calling you a Monster.
You declared them all guilty.
Without an investigation.
Without a trial.
“Here are your errors:
— The police played a siren and repeatedly announced themselves and knocked on the door before having to bang the door open, because instead of opening the door the suspect positioned himself in the hall with his weapon.
— There was an investigation that determined the suspect pointed his weapon at SWAT.”
No, I did not err. In fact, I posted the video so others could know YOURS.
The police “played a siren” that sounded identical to every car alarm I’ve heard, and the played it of 8 seconds. I can hear 8 seconds of a car alarm and not assume the cops are about to break down my door. If anyone doubts me, listen and watch the video taken by the SWAT team itself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP0f00_JMak&feature=youtu.be
14 seconds passed from ONE bang on the door to knocking the door open. Unless I’m in a huge panic, I cannot get from my bedroom to the front door in 14 seconds, particularly not if I’m largely undressed - and he had finished a night shift of work, so being largely undressed is highly likely.
So your claim that the suspect refused to open the door is bogus.
The police ‘announced’ themselves without a bullhorn. Maybe it is the 25 years I spent on the flightline, but I cannot hear someone clearly from my bedroom if they are outside the front door. In fact, I cannot hear them clearly in the video, and there were no walls separating the videocam from the cops. If the camera could not hear them clearly, then how could the suspect?
Now, did the suspect point his weapon at the cops? We’ll never know. The DA claims he did based on the angle of impact of the bullets hitting the weapon. But with over 70 shots fired, most blindly (see the video), the odds of a ricochet hitting at an angle that would allow that claim is huge. And once the guy fell, any bullet hitting nearby would leave marks on the gun similar to ones if he was standing and pointing. So no, we do NOT know he pointed the gun.
Further, if I go to the door because of a disturbance, I have a 44 mag revolver in my hand. If I was shot at over 70 times, would some of the bullets hit in a manner that would allow someone to later claim I was pointing the gun? Darn right they would.
And THAT is the point. If they had copied the wrong address and come to my house, I would have heard a car alarm, a disturbance, grabbed my 44 to go take a look - and been gunned down by the SWAT team “in self-defense”. Except that it would not be, since I would not have fired a shot.
Oh - and neither did Jose Guerena. The SWAT team initially claimed he opened fire on them, but the safety was on and no rounds fired - by a trained Marine. If a retired USAF officer has enough experience to know about safeties, wouldn’t a trained Marine?
Here is a hint: 4 family members are ex-Marines. Actually, 2 are still active duty, but NONE would leave a safety on while trying to shoot, or even planning on the possibility of needing to shoot soon.
“In my America, people answer the door and never point their weapon at the police.”
In MY America - or at least the one I remember - cops gave people a chance to reach the door before breaking it down, and wouldn’t be surprised if someone investigating a ruckus had a gun in hand.
We expect soldiers in a combat zone to act with greater restraint than the SWAT teams use now in the USA against civilians. But I guess in the world of Berlin_Freeper, we’re guilty and need killing unless we cower and grovel for mercy at the first sign of authority.
Just ask yourself this: Did the Founders anticipate a USA where heavily armed cops would force their way inside a house just to serve a generic search warrant?
“For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment for any murders which they should commit on the inhabitants of these states”
Why was this put into the Constitution, if the cops don’t need to give a man time to reach his front door:
“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”
Do you think the Founders would consider breaking down a door within seconds of a knock “reasonable”?
“If you want to continue to deny the police were cleared then show me where they were arrested, officially faulted, reprimanded, disciplined, anything - anything at all that makes your post to me something other than a complete waste of my time .”
If they have only been investigated by someone with a vested interest in clearing them, then in what sense have they been cleared?
If I witness wrongdoing - and I’ve posted the video - then why do I need to have a government agency convict someone to make the accusation true?
Who should I believe? Pima County, or my eyes?
Sorry, but I live in Pima County, and I wouldn’t trust any county agency to act with a shred of integrity. Pima County should be renamed Payoff County, IMHO.
The police siren drove up on the property just yards from the front door.
I have never heard a car alarm drive up onto my property and to my front door.
The police then turned off the siren so they could yell identifying themselves and knock on the door.
The fact that the criminal suspect, who it was later found had a stolen gun under his bed, took a position in the hall and aimed it at the police, proves that their caution and tactics were necessary.
You are coming a day late and a dollar short on this subject, and I have no need to rehash this old event any further for you.
I stated SWAT in Arizona were investigated and cleared and that is exactly what happened.
You questioned me specifically about that and you got your answer. Whether you agree with it or not is your problem. Not mine.
Good points.
The Pima County Attorney is most probably elected by the people of Pima County.
There is your checks and balances.
If you want to insist on unproven conspiracy theories, while you malign good people serving their community, so you can side with a criminal who had a stolen gun in his house, then you will come across as a 9/11 Truther who will never be satisfied with anything other than your own imagined ideas of car alarms and a desperate need for you to run to the door pointing your weapon at anyone in front of you including the police.
Good luck with that.
You can hear a difference between a siren (car alarm) in your yard or one on the street? Either you have a HUGE front yard, or VERY acute hearing!
“The police then turned off the siren so they could yell identifying themselves and knock on the door.”
Yet I can not hear them clearly on a recorder close to them with no walls between - so how is a homeowner going to hear from a back room?
“The fact that the criminal suspect, who it was later found had a stolen gun under his bed, took a position in the hall and aimed it at the police, proves that their caution and tactics were necessary.”
The gun had been stolen 3 years earlier. Ever bought a gun from a private individual? I have...
And we do NOT know if he aimed it at police. The police CLAIM he did, and give as evidence that bullets hit the weapon from the front. But once the man fell in a hail of bullets, the front of the gun would normally land in a position toward the police, and the police didn’t stop shooting until they were out of bullets.
“I stated SWAT in Arizona were investigated and cleared and that is exactly what happened....The Pima County Attorney is most probably elected by the people of Pima County. There is your checks and balances.”
Yes...he has been in office for 40 YEARS! Either he is one hell of a great cop, or the Democrats control Pima County. I live here, so I know what the answer is - but do some research on Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik. You won’t have to look far to find out if he is a politician first, or a cop first.
Democrats control Pima County. Ever hear of Rep. Raul Grijalva?
“If you want to insist on unproven conspiracy theories...”
I posted the video so folks can think for themselves. You can believe the video, or you can believe the Pima County DA - Barbara LaWall:
“The Pima County Democratic Party will honor Sheriff Clarence W. Dupnik at a dinner on Saturday, April 16 at the Hotel Tucson City Center.”
And yes, “Former presidential candidate and Colorado Congresswoman Patricia Schroeder” gave the keynote address last April while “Special Guests”, including Pima County DA Barbara LeWall, applauded.
http://tucsoncitizen.com/in-the-aggregate/tag/barbara-lawall/
So...should I believe the video, or Sheriff Dupnik and DA Barbara LeWall, Democrats of Pima County?
Sorry, the SHERIFF has been in office for 40 years. The DA is more recent.
So...do you trust Democrats in a Democrat controlled County? Do you believe all DAs, working for a County that may be sued, provide impartial and fair reviews?
Some do, frankly. In some places, cops are regularly found to have acted improperly. I don’t think Pima County is one of those places, though...and the idea of having the County investigate the County for wrongdoing that may cost the County...well, does that SOUND like a good idea to you?
How much do you trust government?
No it was a murder suicide. His name was David Brame. He was an evil man from a derainged family. His family has continued to try and clear his name and get custody of the children by making the absurd claim that his beautiful wife was stalking him and he killed her in self-defense. The children and others witnessed the murder. The Brame family has managed to extend the nightmare.
My point in writing however was that the vast majority of police officers that I know are good people who make a sincere effort to help others. I see them performing acts of kindness on a daily basis. Unfortunately, the profession does attract power hungry sociopaths also.
Not to mention the fact that attorneys representing the City of Fullerton have *already* approached the Dad and offered him, $900,000.00 civil settlement to quickly make him go away.
It's also being reported a black Fullerton cop nicknamed the Terminator is one of the Fullerton police officers.
So it could turn out that one policeman was using too much force.
So, you're now suggesting it could only be one officer?
Question #1. Tell me, how is that possible, when multiple witnness statements say it was 6 officers beating one unarmed mentally ill individual?
Question#2. Tell me Berlin Freeper, are you suggesting it's reasonable for 5 officers to just stand and watch one officer beat and unarmed individual to death?
Please address the two questions.
It’s fun watching you twist into knots.
Your spin is speeding up the rotation of the entire planet.
Answer 2: It is reasonable, that since the take down only lasted 7 minutes, that the one policeman who had to handle the resisting suspect at the head is the one that may have used too much force while the others trying to grab kicking legs and flailing arms were otherwise occupied.
Yeah, in 7 minutes it was only the one officer at the suspects head, who beat him severely about the head...All while the 5 other officers held his legs and arms...None of them saw anything. It was just one officer tasing and secretly beating on this guy. The other officers just weren't able to see a thing!
bwahahahahha
I needed that bit of humor...Thanks berlin...
You see what your mind wants to see in the video. If the video is so obvious of a crime then why aren't the police arrested or officially faulted for it?
Certainly they would be because according to you the video is proof of a crime that the whole world is looking at. And yet, there are no arrests, nor official recriminations of any kind.
The proof is in the pudding.
But don't just take my word for it. Nor do you need to take the word of these people you cited:
"So...should I believe the video, or Sheriff Dupnik and DA Barbara LeWall, Democrats of Pima County?" Here is the Republican reaction:
Two members of the central committee have confirmed to News 4 Tucson that Chairman Brian Miller was asked to resign his position for statements he made indicating a distrust of Pima County and Tucson law enforcement agencies,
As you can see, your attempt to turn this into a political football by citing Democrats is a bad failure.
You ask how much I trust government, yet you are the one calling for bigger government to investigate local people.
Historically across America, people rather settle their affairs than to have a bunch of outsiders (bigger government that you are demanding) come in and tell them how things should be done, as if the locals are too stupid and corrupt to know any better.
Just as I expected - you don't have a single sworn witness statement.
How could you when the investigation was just getting started?
Instead you simply reply by using "copy and paste" with the same BS to me. Which is what you had already been doing when I repeatedly told you I am waiting for the investigation and then took pity on you and finally offered a possible explanation. You just ignore what I have to say and copy and paste spam me with the same BS.
You are noting but a cheap simple minded copy and paste spamming fool.
I got news for you - Police aren't sent to jail simply because a cheap simple minded copy and paste spamming fool lacks the maturity level, mental capacity and emotional stability to allow for investigations and trials in court.
Seriously done with you - Cheap Spammer.
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