Posted on 07/29/2011 7:33:04 AM PDT by RobinMasters
jamese777 and all obama defenders everywhere agree - keep that public document hidden!
Oh wait, so obama DIDN’T release his BC?
Revised version: Keep that nonexistent document hidden.
Oh wait...you mean you can’t hide a nonexistent document?
Then hide the fact it doesn’t exist!
“jamese777 and all obama defenders everywhere agree - keep that public document hidden!
Oh wait, so obama DIDN’T release his BC?
Revised version: Keep that nonexistent document hidden.
Oh wait...you mean you can’t hide a nonexistent document?
Then hide the fact it doesn’t exist!”
The legal way to find out once and for all whether it exists or not is to simply follow the law of the state of Hawaii.
A birth certificate can be inspected by or released to: “A person whose right to inspect or obtain a certified copy of the record is established by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction;”—Hawaii Revised Statutes 338-18(b)(9) http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrs2006/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0018.HTM
If a judge issues a court order (which is not a subpoena, search warrants and Temporary Restraining Orders are well known examples of court orders) then there can be access to find out exactly what Hawaii has or doesn’t have on file.
I definitely agree that his application to Occidental needs scrutinizing. He may well have applied for college as a foreign student. He lived in the foreign students’ dorm. This would mean that he checked, under penalty of perjury, the box marked NO for the question “Are you an American citizen?”. If america knew this, he would not be reelected.
Do you ever get tired of posting jamese777’s old posts verbatim? I’m glad I don’t spend hours online posting the same thing over and over that a banned ‘freeper’ used to post. It just looks...what’s the word...sketchy.
Nope. It’s hard to lose your US citizenship. The USA does not care if you are granted citizenship in another country by birth, adoption, or marriage. Who cares what laws the other country has about dual citizenship? Just because that country doesn’t recognize his USA citizenship does not affect his citizenship.
Obama became Indonesian, if he did, by virtue of his mother’s marriage. He was a minor. So he never had to apply for it or swear allegiance to it.
“Do you ever get tired of posting jamese777’s old posts verbatim? I’m glad I don’t spend hours online posting the same thing over and over that a banned ‘freeper’ used to post. It just looks...what’s the word...sketchy.”
Does the above mean that you wouldn’t want a judge to issue a court order to force the state of Hawaii to allow inspection of Obama’s original birth records, if they exist?
Under a court order at least we’d all know exactly what exists and what doesn’t exist at the vault copy level.
Can you imagine the worldwide media attention that would be drawn to the state of Hawai’i’s inability to produce a vault copy document? Particularly after the current Hawai’i administration went on the record to the degree that they did. The following news release could result in charges being brought against the Governor, the Attorney General, the Director of Health, the Registrar of Vital Statistics and the President’s personal attorney, if proven false.
Zero himself is shielded by what follows. He has “plausible deniability” which is what his political staff is paid to provide. He can always say that he only posted what the state of Hawai’i sent to him. But the political fallout would still be huge. No one is going to believe that he didn’t orchestrate the events. The buck stops with Zero.
NEWS RELEASE
NEIL ABERCROMBIE
GOVERNOR
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: April 27, 2011
HAWAI‘I HEALTH DEPARTMENT GRANTS PRESIDENT OBAMA’S REQUEST FOR CERTIFIED COPIES OF ‘LONG FORM’ BIRTH CERTIFICATE
HONOLULU – The Hawai’i State Health Department recently complied with a request by President Barack Obama for certified copies of his original Certificate of Live Birth, which is sometimes referred to in the media as a “long form” birth certificate.
“We hope that issuing certified copies of the original Certificate of Live Birth to President Obama will end the numerous inquiries related to his birth in Hawai’i,” Hawai’i Health Director Loretta Fuddy said. “I have seen the original records filed at the Department of Health and attest to the authenticity of the certified copies the department provided to the President that further prove the fact that he was born in Hawai’i.”
On April 22, 2011, President Obama sent a letter to Director Fuddy, requesting two certified copies of his original Certificate of Live Birth. Also on that day, Judith Corley, the President’s personal attorney, made the same request in writing on behalf of the President. (Letters from President Obama and Ms. Corley are attached).
On April 25, 2011, pursuant to President Obama’s request, Director Fuddy personally witnessed the copying of the original Certificate of Live Birth and attested to the authenticity of the two copies. Dr. Alvin Onaka, the State Registrar, certified the copies.
President Obama authorized Ms. Corley to pick up the documents. On April 25, 2011, Ms. Corley appeared in person at the Hawai’i State Department of Health building in Honolulu, paid the requisite fee, and was given the two certified copies, a response letter from Director Fuddy to President Obama, and a receipt for payment. (Letter from Director Fuddy is attached).
In June 2008, President Obama released his Certification of Live Birth, which is sometimes referred to in the media as a “short form” birth certificate. Both documents are legally sufficient evidence of birth in the State of Hawai’i, and both provide the same fundamental information: President Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawai’i at 7:24 p.m. on August 4, 1961, to mother Stanley Ann Dunham and father Barack Hussein Obama.
In 2001, the Hawai’i State Department of Health began computer-generating vital statistics records. Since then, its longstanding policy and practice has been to issue and provide only the computer-generated Certifications of Live Birth, and to not produce photocopies of actual records to fulfill requests for certified copies of certificates.
Director Fuddy made an exception for President Obama by issuing copies of the original birth certificate. The departmental policy to issue only computer-generated Certifications of Live Birth remains in effect for all birth records that have been computerized. Director Fuddy, in her capacity as Health Director, has the legal authority to approve the process by which copies of birth records are made.
“The exception made in this case to provide President Obama with a copy of his original Certificate of Live Birth was done according to the letter of the law,” Attorney General David Louie said. “Director Fuddy exercised her legal authority in a completely appropriate manner in this unique circumstance. We will continue to maintain the strict confidentiality requirements afforded to vital statistics records, such as birth certificates. These requirements help protect the integrity of the records, and keep us all safe from crimes, such as identity theft.”
Governor Neil Abercrombie stated: “Considering all of the investigations that have been done and the information that has been provided, no rational person can question the President’s citizenship. We have found a way – once again – to confirm what we already knew: the President was born here in Hawai’i. State officials of both parties have verified that President Obama’s birth records show that he was born in Honolulu.
“President Obama’s mother and father were dear friends of mine, and we must respect their memory. It is an insult to the President, his parents and to the Office to suggest that he was not born in Hawai’i. The State of Hawai’i has done everything within our legal ability to disabuse these conspiracy theorists. We granted the President’s request for certified copies of his birth certificate so we can all move on from this unfortunate distraction and focus on the real issues affecting people today.”
I answered this question the first time Jamese777 put it to me. And the second, and the third, etc. I’m sure as he!! not answering it again. Enough is enough. Post something different, or admit you’re a retread.
>>> “For the “good of the country”... that’s why.”
While I’m not prepared to shoot down your posit without a fair hearing...
Well, just for the record, it makes me mad as hell when I hear about the powers that be using this argument to defend their complacency. It makes me want to get violent.... and I’m not a violent person.
Point being, I should have added a “/barfing from anger” to that line.
I didn't characterize it as "easy" or "hard". I'm simply saying what the law was, and in Obama's case describing it based on the statutes and case law prior to the 1986 statutory amendments, the time relevant to Obama. You seem to be repeating some talking points you picked up secondhand somewhere which are not accurate.
Obama became Indonesian, if he did, by virtue of his mother’s marriage. He was a minor. So he never had to apply for it or swear allegiance to it.
I NEVER SAID Obama had to apply for or swear allegiance when he gained Indonesian citizenship at the time of his adoption by Lolo Soetoro. Did you read my post? I'm referring to actions that might have been taken by Obama under Section 1481(a) of the INA and the cases interpreting that statute (again, prior to the 1986 legislative changes) that could have resulted in his expatriation in the late 1970s or early 1980s, long AFTER he would have gained Indonesian citizenship.
This can be a difficult question in a case where both countries allow dual citizenship. A court might say, yes he did something to affirm allegiance to the other country, but maybe his intention was to continue to be a dual citizen, as allowed by both countries.
“In the case where the other country does not allow dual citizenship, then the intention question becomes much clearer. In that case, if the subject intended to affirm allegiance to the other country, then he necessarily intended to relinquish alligience to the US.
“Because Indonesia did not allow dual citizenship, if Obama did something after he was old enough to know what he was doing that affirmed allegiance or nationality to Indonesia, such as obtain or renew an Indonesian passport, or maybe even just holding himself out as an Indonesian citizen (for example on an application for college admission or financial assistance), then he might well have lost his US citizenship automatically by that action.”
Quoting the relevant stuff in your prior post that I was responding to. Mostly we agree. But it’s a myth that having your child become a citizen of another country due to his parentage or your marriage is considered affiliation to that foreign country by the USA. It is not. Conferred citizenship NEVER takes anything away from your USA citizenship.
That is part one, occurring when Obama was quite young. Part two is what happens when he comes back home, and perhaps asks for a renewal of his Indonesian passport when he’s over 18. He probably did this before his college years trip to Indonesia and pahkeestahn. Again, since his Indonesian passport and citizenship mean nothing to the USA (although these days I bet the state Dept pays closer attn to which Americans do renew their passports to known terror countries), he can renew this passport without even slightly risking his citizenship here. This happens all the time to dual citizens.
Renewing a passport to a foreign country is not considered one of the possible acts that can automatically lose you your US citizenship. Some acts that are: voting in that country, which is routinely overlooked when Mexican Americans do just that; and serving in foreign armies, which was for sure overlooked in the 60s, 70s, when many young Jewish Americans went to Israel to fight for the IDF, including my cousin. So there was leeway for Obama to do all sorts of things and he probably never would have been caught anyway.
HOWEVER, you are onto something that is HUGE. If the American people understood that Barack Obama asked for a passport renewal for another country AS AN ADULT, he would be finished as a candidate for President. We do NOT want our leader to have, as an adult, made the choice to be under another flag. He is definitely unfit to be our President if he did that, which I believe he did.
So you have decided to argue with your straw man.
I never said an adoption of Obama by Soetoro and consequent Indonesian citizenship, if that is what happened, would cause him to relinquish his US citizenship. Please point out where you claim it is that I said that.
If you can't even understand what I wrote correctly, you're not going to have much luck understanding our complicated immigration law, including understanding how it has changed from what it was at the time relevant to Obama to what it is now.
That is part one, occurring when Obama was quite young. Part two is what happens when he comes back home, and perhaps asks for a renewal of his Indonesian passport when he’s over 18. He probably did this before his college years trip to Indonesia and pahkeestahn. Again, since his Indonesian passport and citizenship mean nothing to the USA (although these days I bet the state Dept pays closer attn to which Americans do renew their passports to known terror countries), he can renew this passport without even slightly risking his citizenship here. This happens all the time to dual citizens.
Renewing a passport to a foreign country is not considered one of the possible acts that can automatically lose you your US citizenship. Some acts that are: voting in that country, which is routinely overlooked when Mexican Americans do just that; and serving in foreign armies, which was for sure overlooked in the 60s, 70s, when many young Jewish Americans went to Israel to fight for the IDF, including my cousin. So there was leeway for Obama to do all sorts of things and he probably never would have been caught anyway.
None of these statements you claim ("voting matters, serving in a foreign army matters, renewing a passport does not") as flat propositions are true as a matter of law. Your understanding of the law appears to be based on the anecdotal experiences of other people rather than an understanding of the relevant statutes and cases. You are merely kibbitzing about a subject that requires a more serious and precise analysis.
For example, serving in the armed forces of a foreign country is a problem under the language of the INA as in effect today if such armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the US or the person is an officer. Jewish-Americans serving as enlisted personnel in the Israeli army would likely only have a problem if they were required to make sole allegiance to Israel as a condition to serving, in which case yeah, they'd have a big problem under our laws.
What is true is that it is a facts and circumstances analysis in each case the purpose of which is to determine whether what the acts the person undertook are what a reasonable person would objectively determine amount to making allegiance to another country.
Nowhere does the INA state that voting in a foreign election necessarily means the relinquishment of US citizenship. But yes, it is certainly a relevant consideration that would strongly indicate allegiance to another country.
Nowhere does the INA state that obtaining or renewing a foreign passport cannot adversely impact one's US nationality.
In Obama's case, it depends on the relevant facts and circumstances in his specific situation. Under HIS facts and circumstances, did he intend to make allegiance to Indonesia? We ask first, what did he do? If he obtained or renewed an Indonesian passport, did that require him representing, either explicitly or impliedly, that he had SOLE allegiance to Indonesia? Since during the relevant time period, Indonesia did not permit its citizens to be a citizen of another country, it is quite likely that if Obama gained Indonesian citizenship as a child, and later as an adult decided to hold himself out as an Indonesian citizen in order to obtain a legal status that he could ONLY have by necessarily holding himself out as NOT a citizen of any other country, then Obama likely expatriated himself under the INA as in effect in the early 1980s. This would probably be even more clear if we were to examine the statements that Indonesia required an applicant to make in a passport application or renewal either explicitly on its face or implicitly in its regulations.
HOWEVER, you are onto something that is HUGE. If the American people understood that Barack Obama asked for a passport renewal for another country AS AN ADULT, he would be finished as a candidate for President. We do NOT want our leader to have, as an adult, made the choice to be under another flag. He is definitely unfit to be our President if he did that, which I believe he did.
No, he would not be "finished" because it came out that he renewed his Indonesian passport as an adult, if it did not affect his US citizenship. Few people would care about that. Especially because US law has become relaxed over the years such that as it stands now, in 2011, there are many situations in which adults can legally carry dual citizenship under our laws.
He WOULD be "finished" however if it came to light that Obama relinquished his US citizenship as a young man and fraudulently misrepresented to the American people, state electoral authorities, the Electoral College and the Congress his eligibility to be on the presidential ballot, and worked to conceal the fraud.
Why all the nasty ad Hominem? My info comes from legal reading on the subject over the years. This is highly relevant to me because of my son. Your refutations of what I’ve said are nonsense; all I spoke of was that there are a few examples given that potentially could aid the USA canceling one’s citizenship, but often does not.
I agree that removing someone’s USA citizenship is done on an individual basis. Adam gadahn kept his for too long befre we finally got rid of him. That’s why I kept saying that it’s pretty damn hard to lose your citizenship.
I get what you are saying about Obama renewing an Indonesian passport as an adult — what exactly did he have to sign? Would be interesting to know. But. Renewal forms for the countries I’m familiar with do NOT ask anything about allegiance; they are simple forms for renewing an allegiance that was done prior.
I completely disagree with you about the American people. I think a commercial showing a depiction of Obama’s arm filling out a request for a foreign passport is absolutely an election killer. It’s not about whether it’s legal. It’s about not wanting our president to have clear foreign affiliations and to have proven such in writing.
I have nothing to say negative about you as a person. For all I know, you’re a great guy.
I am however citicizing your description of US law as it would apply to Obama’s situation as incomplete and inaccurate. You can’t just take situations you happened to have encountered personally and extrapolate it to Obama’s facts and circumstances.
I too would very much like to see Obama’s Indonesian records.
Indonesia (until recently) was quite strict about not tolerating dual citizenship. (Israel, by contrast, for obvious reasons, has been quite permissive in allowing Israeli citizens to hold foreign citizenship as well.)
If Obama as an adult physically present in Indonesia during the 1979-1985 period obtained a passport or a passport renewal from Indonesia claiming to be an Indonesian citizen, and it was the case that Indonesia did not allow its citizens to be citizens of any other country, then it is a pretty strong case that he necessarily intended to make allegiance to Indonesia and only Indonesia by voluntarily and affirmatively acting in that manner. As a US citizen, he was free NOT to obtain an Indonesian passport and use a US passport. But of his own free will he voluntarily obtained or renewed a status as an Indonesian citizen under circumstances where someone doing that would necessarily be understood as representing that he was NOT a citizen of any other country than Indonesia.
This assumes he did have an Indonesian passport, which I very strongly suspect, and that he did something when he was older to hold himself out as an Indonesian citizen such as renew a passport, which I also suspect. However, we do not know that as a fact.
In fact, to oversimplify a bit, I can boil the essence of the legal analysis down by analogy to a conversation.
Indonesia: “Only an Indonesian citizen can get an Indonesian passport from me. And if you are claiming to be an Indonesian citizen, you cannot be a citizen of any other country.”
Obama: “Hi, my name is Barack Obama. I would like to obtain or renew an Indonesian passport. I am claiming to be an Indonesian citizen. Therefore I am not a citizen of any other country.”
Uncle Sam: “Say, I was standing over there and overheard your conversation. On our records, you are a United States citizen. I just heard you state that you, as an adult and voluntarily, claim to be an Indonesian citizen and are not a citizen of any other country. By your statement you have made a choice of allegiance to Indonesia, and have forsworn allegiance to the United States. That is sufficient under my law to relinquish your United States citizenship.”
Many countries do not "allow" dual citizenship but they usually do not know when one of their citizens cross that line. How would they know? The USA knows her citizens are sometimes dual with another nation, but she does not RECOGNIZE any citizenship but to her.
It makes no difference to the USA if Obama signed on to continue his allegiance to a country that doesn't allow dual citizenship. There are probably many non-USA citizens living here who are active citizens of Indonesia, so Indonesia would never had to know IF (big if!) Obama was also an American.
Therefore nothing he did as an 18 year old renewing an Indonesian passport compromises his USA citizenship. The USA does not care (except that perhaps post 9/11 they focus on some of these people if they know about them).
Somehow we are not connecting on this. My bottom line in this conversation is that nothing Obama has done re Indonesia has legally affected his (purported prior) American citizenship. It doesn't even matter what he swore on an Indonesian document; the USA doesn't know or care.
What really does matter here is his natural born status, or his eligibility status in the eye of the American people. One would assume that NONE OF US (except the liberals who hate America) wishes a leader, of ANY PARTY, who as an adult has claimed formal allegiance to another land. I believe this would stop my cousin from running for President (the one who served in Israel's army). I believe this would curtail ANY candidate's ambitions.
This assumes he did have an Indonesian passport, which I very strongly suspect, and that he did something when he was older to hold himself out as an Indonesian citizen such as renew a passport, which I also suspect. However, we do not know that as a fact.
I suspect it too.
One other thing that neither of us has touched upon is that there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that Obama never had American citizenship from birth. There is some evidence that his BC is fraudulent, and there is the situation of him needing as a teen to use someone else's SS number to get his first job, and that he still used that fraudulent SS number when he filled out his military service document, and even later as an adult. What was the problem in his documentation that caused all that? And some have said that his Senatorial USA passport was the first one he'd ever had. Then how could he have traveled to Indo and Pahki without one? If he used his Indonesian passport, this might mean that Indonesian was the first nationality he ever had, and perhaps he had to be "adopted" by Soetoro even to travel to Indo the first time, or was he on Stanley's pass as a small child?
Ahhhh, I think I might get what you are saying now!
Yes, it is entirely possible that if the United States wanted to get rid of Barack Obama, which they DO NOT and WON'T because he is President, they could DEFINITELY try using something like that as their reasoning. Like getting Al Capone put away for tax evasion.
Although it could well be that the form he filled out at 19 to renew his Indo pass didn't contain ANY swearing of allegiance but was instead just your basic form renewing a document. As it is here. Show us your old pass, where do you live, let's see your ID, bla bla bla.
It's a moot legal point because the State Dept definitely will not be pursuing ANY way to remove Barack Obama's citizenship, no matter what he swore to the Indos. Even Adam Gadahn was broadcasting Al Qaida's wishes for some time before he lost his USA citizenship.
Therefore nothing he did as an 18 year old renewing an Indonesian passport compromises his USA citizenship. The USA does not care
I've told you what the law is, and you just ignore it and your counter-argument is just to say crap off the top of your head. You can repeat this 20 times, it doesn't make it any more true.
You ask "how would they know?" As a matter of law, it DOESN'T MATTER if the US knows of it at the time or not.
The expatriation happens BY OPERATION OF LAW. No one has to tell the US government. Obviously, someone can expatriate themselves and get away with it if the US government never finds out. But whether the US government learns of it or not, as a matter of law the expatriation is not dependent on notice to the US government.
I agree with you here. The State Department will not be pursuing Obama, no matter what he did in Indonesia.
The only way it would come out would be if private citizens discovered records indicating that Obama held himself out as an Indonesian citizen as an adult, like in his college application or financial aid records, and then voices in the media started paying attention and the question then follows as to how did he have Indonesian citizenship as an adult and what did he do in Indonesia with respect to that?
That, I suspect, is why he has refused to allow Occidental or Columbia to release his college records. It might give impetus to a line of inquiry that could lead to a very serious problem for Obama.
So we have another passport issue for Obama here. How did he stay for "months" in Bali, Indonesia on a US passport under which a tourist visa would only be for 30 days? (Other sources suggest Michelle did not travel to Bali with him.)
Did he use an Indonesian passport to travel to Indonesia to try to write his book?
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