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MSNBC HARDBALL 8/4/11:“The stimulus experience was a big setback for Keynesian economic theory”
nexislexis/youtube(links in body) | 8/4/11 | MSNBC Hardball/Maddow

Posted on 08/07/2011 7:39:54 PM PDT by sickoflibs

PLAYING CLIP OF RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: John Maynard Keynes. If you want to know what Keynesian economics is, you`re living it, Barack Obama, massive government spending, massive debt, massive redistribution of wealth, the lie that government spending, deficit spending can propel economic growth.
They had no intention of saving capitalism. They wanted to destroy it and replace it with socialism or Marxism or fascism or whatever you want to call it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

I think that is the heart of the Tea Party, Michael, this fear of government massive spending, hemorrhaging, hemorrhaging.

CROWLEY: Yes.

MATTHEWS: That stimulus program of about $800 billion to $900 billion dollars was a waste.

CROWLEY: Right.

MATTHEWS: It didn`t bring the economy back. And they have got a good argument with that, because when you have a 9-plus percent unemployment rate, how can you claim you turned the economy around? In simple Crayon- level thinking, it works, doesn`t it, the Tea Party argument?

CROWLEY: Sure. Yes. I mean, the experience of the stimulus was a big setback for Keynesian economic theory, because it`s hard to explain to people that it might have really prevented things from getting a lot of worse. And so the Rush Limbaughs of the world point to the unemployment now and say that the thing was a complete waste that didn`t work.
MSNBC HARDBALL for 8/4/11 Transcript(LexisNexis)

Not everyone learned the lesson. Couldn’t find a transcript for this same night Maddow show but I did find the clip on youtube.
At about 11:56 start at 11:00 or earlier to hear more of this theory and see if you can follow his math.
Guest Robert Frank Cornell University Economics professor :
The markets are happy to loan us the money. As Ezra said they are eager to loan us more money at very low interest rates . The cost of debt compared to the cost of unemployment is incredibly low. A trillion dollar deficit costs us $25B per year to pay the interest on that. If we have an extra 10M people unemployed that’s $250M lost forever each year so it’s a 10 to 1 trade-off . We are focusing on deficit reduction when we should be focusing on job creation. Focusing on the deficit by cutting spending, that’s going to make the deficit bigger. What we are doing now is unimaginably stupid
The Rachel Maddow Show (08-04-11) youtube clip (see 11:44)


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Editorial; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: debt; economy; keynesian; stimulus
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I caught these two gems Thursday night and had to share. On Hardball they realize they defeated themselves.

Over at Maddow-land "Everyone knows ..." whatever Maddow is selling that night must be right, it's always 'so obvious'. Check out the 10 to 1 math.

1 posted on 08/07/2011 7:40:04 PM PDT by sickoflibs
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To: sickoflibs

It was a big setback for THE KENYAN’S economic theory as well.


2 posted on 08/07/2011 7:45:07 PM PDT by festusbanjo (Attn: Current Occupant 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., let this serve as your eviction notice eff.11/06/2012)
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To: sickoflibs

Keynesian theory?
Global warming theory?
Religion of peace theory?

Same bull Obama.

Same people.

Massive fail ... As usual.


3 posted on 08/07/2011 7:47:27 PM PDT by Da Coyote
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To: LMAO; DeaconBenjamin; April Lexington; murphE; RipSawyer; Tunehead54; preacher; 1234; coloradan; ...
The Peter Schiff/Austrian Economics ping. (Washington Bankrupting our Nation by Spending your past, present and future money!)
4 posted on 08/07/2011 7:48:07 PM PDT by sickoflibs (If you pay zero Federal income taxes, don't say you are paying your 'fair share')
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To: sickoflibs

“They had no intention of saving capitalism. They wanted to destroy it and replace it with socialism or Marxism or fascism or whatever you want to call it.”

Let none of us forget that GWB said we must destroy the free market in order to save it.

So he and his republican New Worlds Order kool-aid drinkers are on board too.


5 posted on 08/07/2011 7:50:31 PM PDT by stockpirate (Proud member of the TEA Party, aka Terrorists Emancipating America)
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To: sickoflibs

Ironically, although Keynesian economic theory has always been known to be a fraud, the failure of the “stimulus” package doesn’t really prove the point because the stimulus package was never anything more than a political slush fund for bailing out failed union pension funds and keeping Democrat municipal governments afloat. Very little of the $800 billion actually went to anythiny normally associated with “stimulus”. It was mostly used just to pay bills.

And so now the Keynesians have to either admit that they and their theories are abject failures or nod that yes, the stimulus package was a massive, brazen theft by their Democrat party on behalf of political special interests. What to do, oh, what to do...


6 posted on 08/07/2011 7:51:09 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: sickoflibs

7 posted on 08/07/2011 7:52:11 PM PDT by rabidralph
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To: sickoflibs

EXCELLENT post. Thank you.


8 posted on 08/07/2011 7:52:32 PM PDT by DRey
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To: sickoflibs; RC2; Red Badger; stephenjohnbanker; M. Espinola; investigateworld; blam; scottfactor; ..
And here is another good video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e72EhTtSh0&feature=player_embedded

9 posted on 08/07/2011 7:53:26 PM PDT by ex-Texan (Ecclesiastes 5:10 - 20)
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To: festusbanjo

We are all Kenyans now/s;)


10 posted on 08/07/2011 7:53:26 PM PDT by Frank_2001
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To: sickoflibs

sol,

Silly boy, you are actually listening to what they are saying, and understanding them, much to their dismay.

The true intent of their commentary is aimed only at themselves so they can land talking head jobs at low rated subsidiaries of soros.inc.

Logic, mathematical reality, and reason do not apply in that world.


11 posted on 08/07/2011 7:54:43 PM PDT by hotshu (Keep America's Faith, that's all 0bama and his fellow traitors can't steal from us.)
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To: sickoflibs

Keynesian economics should have died in the late 1970s with stagflation...something Keynesian theory said could not happen. J M Keynes is like a zombie who keeps coming back from the dead looking for economies to devour.


12 posted on 08/07/2011 7:58:16 PM PDT by The Great RJ ("The problem with socialism is that pretty soon you run out of other people's money" M. Thatcher)
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To: stockpirate

Do you have a link to that quote where he said that, to destroy the market to save it?


13 posted on 08/07/2011 8:02:28 PM PDT by rlmorel ("When marching down the same road, one doesn't need 'marching orders' to reach the same destination")
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To: Lancey Howard
...the failure of the “stimulus” package doesn’t really prove the point because the stimulus package was never anything more than a political slush fund for bailing out failed union pension funds and keeping Democrat municipal governments afloat.

Keynes theory is based upon expenditure by govt, not necessarily where it goes. The money gets spent regardless of the "first" recipient, makes it's way into the economy and finally into the banks. I would say that indeed Keynesian theory has thus failed, that private sector money has a greater multiplying effect than redistributive money.

Just my take...

14 posted on 08/07/2011 8:03:03 PM PDT by Mensius
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To: sickoflibs

They’d rather put their faith in unicorns and pentagrams than to admit the spending must STOP.
It’s time to root out the crooked doctors, hospitals, lobbyists, welfare cheats, disability frauds, EPA over-regulators, ACORN lookalikes, and moronic HHS grants for example.
It’s time to start tax reform.
and it’s time to jettison this administration and the clueless leader.
Media talking heads should be outsourced - that alone would go a long way toward educating the American public about the long hard road we have to walk in order to undo this socialist experiment.


15 posted on 08/07/2011 8:04:52 PM PDT by bossmechanic (If all else fails, hit it with a hammer)
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To: The Great RJ

I watched an interesting video interview with F.A. Hayek before he died, and he said that in his opinion, even Keynes would vigorously disagree with how his theories have been interpreted.

For my part, I think Keynesian theory is complete hogwash from the get-go.


16 posted on 08/07/2011 8:05:04 PM PDT by rlmorel ("When marching down the same road, one doesn't need 'marching orders' to reach the same destination")
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To: sickoflibs
We don't know that Keynes would be a "Keynsian" today. Keynes became a wealthy man by buying stocks. Not by going to work for a big firm that made a % off of bond sales and stock issues, but by buying and selling his own portfolio. How many Obama advisers can say the same? (My guess = 0)

Keynes thought that a central government that spent 5% of the GNP, and had an all but invisible regulatory footprint, could spur the economy by temporarily spending 10% of the GNP.

That does not mean that he would have thought a central government spending 22% of the GNP, and regulating everything that moves, would spur the economy by raising spending to 27% of GNP.

17 posted on 08/07/2011 8:06:04 PM PDT by Pilsner
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To: The Great RJ

I think it is like socialism.

No matter how many times it is tried and failed, someone always thinks it is because it was done wrong.

“THIS time, WE will do it right!” It is a form of mental illness.


18 posted on 08/07/2011 8:07:03 PM PDT by rlmorel ("When marching down the same road, one doesn't need 'marching orders' to reach the same destination")
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To: sickoflibs

Setback? More like an ineluctable repudiation of Keynesian demand-side economics.


19 posted on 08/07/2011 8:07:43 PM PDT by Hoodat (Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. - (Rom 8:37))
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To: rlmorel

I don’t have a link but it is fairly well known, even Rush plays it from time to time......

GWB is nothing but a New World Order big govrnment socialist.....


20 posted on 08/07/2011 8:07:48 PM PDT by stockpirate (Proud member of the TEA Party, aka Terrorists Emancipating America)
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To: sickoflibs

ALL of it!!


21 posted on 08/07/2011 8:10:52 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)
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To: stockpirate; ding_dong_daddy_from_dumas; stephenjohnbanker; DoughtyOne; rabscuttle385; mkjessup; ...
RE :"Let none of us forget that GWB said we must destroy the free market in order to save it. So he and his republican New Worlds Order kool-aid drinkers are on board too."

Hold on there partner, Obama does it to destroy the country, Bush did it to save the country. I feel much better when I know it's a Republican emptying my 401K and plowing down my house than a Democrat because Republicans are 'one of us', just much more powerful and richer maybe. Well they are good at heart anyway, Elect more RINOs so we get a 'better deal' :)

22 posted on 08/07/2011 8:11:24 PM PDT by sickoflibs (If you pay zero Federal income taxes, don't say you are paying your 'fair share')
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To: ex-Texan

Thanks


23 posted on 08/07/2011 8:11:28 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)
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To: Frank_2001

>>We are all Kenyans now<<

LOL

We’ll all be living in huts soon, too.


24 posted on 08/07/2011 8:15:04 PM PDT by Do Not Make Fun Of His Ears
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To: sickoflibs

GREAT!

We took Trillions of dollars and added that to our children’s credit card for a THEORY?!!!

Are these people for F’ng REAL?!!!

So when do get to apply my theories at the taxpayers expense?

F the Liberals in the country ALL to HELL!

I have to pay, you have to pay, and our children and their children have to pay ... for their Theories!!


25 posted on 08/07/2011 8:19:12 PM PDT by R0CK3T
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To: ex-Texan
And here is another good video:

Bilderbergers? Complete with spooky music, evil Jews, kookiness of all kind? You're kidding around, right?

26 posted on 08/07/2011 8:23:01 PM PDT by Minn (Here is a realistic picture of the prophet: ----> ([: {()
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To: sickoflibs

I had to look up what you were saying about Bush claiming that he had to abandon free market principles in order to save the economy. He said it about TARP.

Bush was wrong. It was a big mistake, he listened to the wrong people, but he didn’t have evil intentions. Obama is evil, or as close to it as any mere human can be.

Think about Bush being warned by Moody’s, the real villain in the collapse of the housing market and subprime mortgage debacle, that if Bush didn’t do something and bail out the banks, Moody’s would downgrade the US debt, and the economy would completely collapse.

Think about the fact that Warren Buffet is the largest stake holder in Moody’s.


27 posted on 08/07/2011 8:23:24 PM PDT by Eva
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To: sickoflibs

They wanted to replace it with communism, statist communism.


28 posted on 08/07/2011 8:25:01 PM PDT by Eva
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To: rlmorel

“I’ve abandoned free-market principles to save the free-market system,” Bush told CNN television, saying he had made the decision “to make sure the economy doesn’t collapse.”


Where did this explosive growth in deficits come from? How did things get so out of control, and so quickly?

To understand why this is happening, we need to go back to the financial crisis of 2008. During the end of that year and the beginning of 2009, the US private economy imploded. At high speed, it plummeted from an annual level of approximately $9.4 trillion to a level of $8.1 trillion - a loss of $1.3 trillion dollars, or about 14%. In ordinary circumstances a drop this fast and sharp would throw a nation straight into a Depression with a capital “D”.

Yet when one looks at GDP, the total economy only shrank by about $300 billion, or less than a quarter of the fall in the private economy. How could that be? The answer - which lies at the very heart of the current crisis - is that the economy is usually displayed as one number, which is the sum of private and federal spending. When we stick to this one number only and call it reality, it means that a decrease in one side of the economy can be seemingly made to go away by increasing the other side of the economy. As shown in the graph below, what happened was the federal government started spending an extra trillion dollars per year to cover up and smooth over the economic damage from this fundamental, fantastic blow to the private economy, the wealth-producing core of the entire economy.

Snip
The total government (federal, state and local) share of the US economy went from 35% at the end of 2007, to 43% by the end of 2009. Outside of a major war, this is unprecedented growth in government spending, and it occurred almost instantaneously.

Excerpt from
U.S. Faces a Depression-Level Unemployment Crisis
By Daniel R Amerman CFA
http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/daniel-amerman/2011/08/04/us-faces-a-depression-level-unemployment-crisis


29 posted on 08/07/2011 8:25:40 PM PDT by listenhillary (Look your representatives in the eye and ask if they intend to pay off the debt. They will look away)
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To: rlmorel; stockpirate
RE :”Do you have a link to that quote where he said that, to destroy the market to save it?

Obviously Bush never used those specific words, But this is probably what they are referring to:
Bush: "I've Abandoned Free Market Principles To Save The Free Market System" (Bush on CNN late 2008 video clip)

30 posted on 08/07/2011 8:25:58 PM PDT by sickoflibs (If you pay zero Federal income taxes, don't say you are paying your 'fair share')
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To: sickoflibs
MATTHEWS: I think the Tea Party people need to read history.

How do they explain the Harding/Coolidge economy?

31 posted on 08/07/2011 8:30:33 PM PDT by ding_dong_daddy_from_dumas (Budget sins can be fixed. Amnesty is irreversible.)
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To: Eva; rlmorel; stockpirate; ding_dong_daddy_from_dumas; stephenjohnbanker; DoughtyOne
RE :”I had to look up what you were saying about Bush claiming that he had to abandon free market principles in order to save the economy. He said it about TARP.

I was responding to stockpirate’s comment which you are refering to above in your reply, but I did pull up and post the actual quote/video here afterward : #30

32 posted on 08/07/2011 8:33:52 PM PDT by sickoflibs (If you pay zero Federal income taxes, don't say you are paying your 'fair share')
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To: sickoflibs

I watched that.. (I like watching msnbc because of the laughs) .. they went on to say it was too small and tea partiers were dumb because it was econ 101...


33 posted on 08/07/2011 8:35:24 PM PDT by rokkitapps ( Hearings on healthcare waivers NOW! (If you agree make this your tagline))
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To: sickoflibs

LOL...WHAT A FOOL BUSH WAS.


34 posted on 08/07/2011 8:39:09 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)
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To: sickoflibs

I HAD TO ABANDON FREE MARKET PRINCIPLES, IN ORDER TO ALLOW STATIST/GLOBALIST RINOS TO TAKE OVER THE GOVERNMENT.

BUSH


35 posted on 08/07/2011 8:41:32 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)
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To: rokkitapps
The stimulus spending that the Obama Idiots Passed grew the public sector NOT the Private sector. You definitely have to have deficit spending during a slow down BUT YOU DO NOT GROW THE PUBLIC SECTOR.

Obama and friends are nothing but damn fools. I am disgusted with the “elites” who seem to be dishonest, socialist/Communist sycophants.

36 posted on 08/07/2011 8:43:10 PM PDT by Chgogal (WSJ, Krauthammer, Rove et. al., STFU. Thank you.)
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To: Eva; stockpirate; ding_dong_daddy_from_dumas; stephenjohnbanker; DoughtyOne; rabscuttle385; ...
RE :”I had to look up what you were saying about Bush claiming that he had to abandon free market principles in order to save the economy. He said it about TARP. Bush was wrong. It was a big mistake, he listened to the wrong people, but he didn’t have evil intentions. Obama is evil, or as close to it as any mere human can be

You are right, when Bush tries to take away our free Speech rights with Campaign Finance, or our safe light bulbs with the 2007 Energy Act as well as forced us on ethanol, or he Demands a $1T blank check from congress with no conditions to give to Fannie and Freddy and GM, we should be grateful because he has our best interest at heart and is a Republican. But when an evil Democrat like Obama does the same we should be up in arms and protest. It only makes sense. It is all about intentions.

37 posted on 08/07/2011 8:45:53 PM PDT by sickoflibs (If you pay zero Federal income taxes, don't say you are paying your 'fair share')
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To: AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; ColdOne; Convert from ECUSA; ...

Thanks sickoflibs. They don’t really say that though—

[snip] MATTHEWS: It didn`t bring the economy back. And they have got a good argument with that, because when you have a 9-plus percent unemployment rate, how can you claim you turned the economy around? In simple Crayon- level thinking, it works, doesn`t it, the Tea Party argument?

CROWLEY: Sure. Yes. I mean, the experience of the stimulus was a big setback for Keynesian economic theory, because it`s hard to explain to people that it might have really prevented things from getting a lot of worse. And so the Rush Limbaughs of the world point to the unemployment now and say that the thing was a complete waste that didn`t work. [/snip]


38 posted on 08/07/2011 8:47:19 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Yes, as a matter of fact, it is that time again -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: sickoflibs
I feel much better when I know it's a Republican emptying my 401K and plowing down my house than a Democrat because Republicans are 'one of us'

LOL (laughing... kind of)

I'm not a Republican anymore for that reason.
Dem and Dem-lite do NOT have my best interest in mind.

39 posted on 08/07/2011 8:54:11 PM PDT by calcowgirl ("Sapere Aude!" --Immanuel Kant)
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To: rokkitapps
RE :” I watched that.. (I like watching msnbc because of the laughs) .. they went on to say it was too small and tea partiers were dumb because it was econ 101...

I been following/posting Maddow on this subject since early 2009 because of her arrogance. Flashback this, most of the videos were pulled by I did transcripts at the link.

MSNBCs Rachel Maddow lecturing us on economics, jobs and how stimulus works in Early 2009(posted January 2010)

Example
Maddow:”The stimulus package is just about a done deal. And what we got it’s hoped will result in about 3-4 million new jobs being created…..the bill is 789B dollars with 36% of it tax cuts(ie tax credits) . In other words the president got just about exactly what he asked for, the only thing he didn’t get he said he wanted was republican votes.” {Rachel Maddow} Ms. Information: Stimulus Bill / NAACP(MSNBC, 12 February 2009)

40 posted on 08/07/2011 8:54:14 PM PDT by sickoflibs (If you pay zero Federal income taxes, don't say you are paying your 'fair share')
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To: calcowgirl

I did another one like that at #37 where I think I pinged you, after someone actually agreed with my sarcasm.


41 posted on 08/07/2011 8:56:13 PM PDT by sickoflibs (If you pay zero Federal income taxes, don't say you are paying your 'fair share')
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To: sickoflibs

The Keynesian economic theory was and is nothing more than disguised socialism and it has never worked, never. =.=


42 posted on 08/07/2011 8:58:40 PM PDT by cranked
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To: Lancey Howard

It was a huge ‘mob bust-out’ (Google that).


43 posted on 08/07/2011 9:07:02 PM PDT by expatpat
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To: sickoflibs

That dude is a complete basket case.


44 posted on 08/07/2011 9:07:17 PM PDT by eyedigress ((Old storm chaser from the west)?)
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To: SunkenCiv; ding_dong_daddy_from_dumas; stephenjohnbanker; DoughtyOne; rabscuttle385; mkjessup; ...
RE :”Thanks sickoflibs. They don’t really say that though—

Not sure what you mean, the actual text is “ ..the experience of the stimulus was a big setback for Keynesian economic theory, ..” like the title but they are not admitting the stimulus was a economic failure as my post of the entire exchange shows, they are admitting that “..the experience of the stimulus was a big setback for SELLING the Keynesian economic theory, ..

To me this is very important and why I posted it.

45 posted on 08/07/2011 9:07:47 PM PDT by sickoflibs (If you pay zero Federal income taxes, don't say you are paying your 'fair share')
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To: The Great RJ; Mensius

Keynes actually knew that it wouldn’t work if the money multiplier was less than 2. The multiplier has been below 1 since 2008 (and still falling) so it’s no wonder it didn’t work. Obama’s economics team either were ignorant or didn’t care to spoil the party laid on for Obama’s people.


46 posted on 08/07/2011 9:10:58 PM PDT by expatpat
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To: sickoflibs
I feel much better when I know it's a Republican emptying my 401K and plowing down my house than a Democrat because Republicans are 'one of us', just much more powerful and richer maybe.

My FRiend - are you serious? Did you read what you just wrote? Did I miss a /s tag?

What would Jefferson do?
47 posted on 08/07/2011 9:35:12 PM PDT by MV=PY (The Magic Question: Who's paying for it?)
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To: sickoflibs

Oh, don’t get me wrong, Bush did a whole lot of things that I disagreed with, but he was wrong, not evil. Bush meant the silly statement that he made regarding the TARP.

There is a difference between being wrong and being intentionally wrong. The results may be the same, but it puts the perpetrators in different categories.


48 posted on 08/07/2011 9:42:48 PM PDT by Eva
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To: sickoflibs

Why are you so sarcastic and confrontational with everyone? It is really off putting, when you twist every comment to fit your own distasteful narrative and ridicule the other posters.

My guess is that you are a radical libertarian who looks down your nose at the average conservative. I could be wrong.


49 posted on 08/07/2011 9:52:19 PM PDT by Eva
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To: Lancey Howard
[Very little of the $800 billion actually went to anything normally associated with “stimulus”.]

I agree. The White House knew the “Stimulus” wouldn't lift the economy because it wasn't focused anywhere. But they expected the cycle would trend up as usual within a year and they would take credit for it.

Had Obama channeled FDR's ghost he might have bought up $850 billion of repo housing in key markets and demolished it.

50 posted on 08/07/2011 9:57:24 PM PDT by Brad from Tennessee (A politician can't give you anything he hasn't first stolen from you.)
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