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Commandos criticize call for SEALs
washingtontimes.com ^ | August 9,2011 | Rowan Scarborough

Posted on 08/10/2011 6:55:41 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

Rangers’ danger, single helicopter among questions

Some in the special operations community are privately criticizing the wisdom of Saturday’s failed rescue mission in Afghanistan, saying commanders should have sent more than the one Chinook helicopter that was shot down, killing 30 American troops, including 23 elite Navy SEALs.

They also questioned whether the quickly assembled mission was necessary to rescue a band of Army Rangers reportedly under fire from Taliban militants.

“I squarely blame whoever planned and authorized the mission for the deaths,” said a Special Forces soldier who served in Afghanistan.

“It was simply uncalled for unless Rangers were being overrun and the ground situation required this much operational risk.”

Special operations sources also told The Washington Times that it would have been better to send two helicopters instead of one to reduce risks.

“The SEALs do seem to like stuffing a lot of valuable guys in one [helicopter],” said a second special operations officer who also served in Afghanistan.

“There may have been an operational reason not to spread them out over two, [but] I just don’t know what that would be.”

They also questioned the type of aircraft dispatched for the mission. The NATO command in Kabul identified the downed helicopter as a Boeing CH-47 Chinook, not the modified version, the MH-47.

The MH-47 Chinook is configured for nighttime missions by the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment, based at Fort Campbell, Ky.

The Army Times said the Chinook was piloted by a regular Army crew, not aviators from the specially trained 160th.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government
KEYWORDS: call; comandos; criticize; seals
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1 posted on 08/10/2011 6:55:43 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

Lots of questions about this tragedy.


2 posted on 08/10/2011 6:59:27 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

I heard the father of one of the killed SEALs on the radio, and he seemed to indicate that he thought they were setup. He didn’t say it, but... American cooperation at some level seemed to be on the table.


3 posted on 08/10/2011 6:59:27 AM PDT by brownsfan (I miss the America I grew up in.)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

Sounds a little like Mogadish. Anyone?


4 posted on 08/10/2011 7:00:03 AM PDT by Dahoser (Separation of church and state? No, we need separation of media and state.)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

Must have been on a code 3 response and not enough time to properly stage the transports. Sometimes you have to take
whatever is at hand.


5 posted on 08/10/2011 7:00:16 AM PDT by RitchieAprile
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

Admittedly, I’m no military expert, but I thought SEALs are not supposed to be involved in regular field battle against regular army? That’s what I don’t get. I thought SEALs are for breaking down doors, marking targets, snatch-and-grab, hostage rescue, etc. Not for this kind of stuff.

Am I wrong?


6 posted on 08/10/2011 7:00:26 AM PDT by Thane_Banquo
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

“There may have been an operational reason not to spread them out over two, [but] I just don’t know what that would be.”

Budget constraints creating logistical constraints? Our troops are being left to dangle during the Xerxes administration. Is this among the examples of how it works out in practice?


7 posted on 08/10/2011 7:01:06 AM PDT by Psalm 144 (Voodoo Republicans: Don't read their lips - watch their hands.)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

Ron Brown comes to mind.........


8 posted on 08/10/2011 7:02:25 AM PDT by yoe
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To: ilovesarah2012
There are questions and then there is this.

A retired officer who served with SEALs in Afghanistan said the best practice is to land the Chinook away from the point of battle, but choice spots are not always available in rugged terrain.

“I would be hard-pressed to challenge the commanders’ decision on the ground,” the ex-officer said. “My guess is that the Taliban got a lucky shot off. It happens in war. Unfortunately, when you have 30 guys in one thin-skinned [helicopter] the repercussions can be deadly.”

9 posted on 08/10/2011 7:03:11 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid! (S&P wasn't worried about us not lifting the debt ceiling - they are worried about the spending)
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To: brownsfan
More so that the SEAL team wanted to get into the action and suggested they 'enter' the operation, unplanned. Just a theory.

I've never, ever seen or heard of ST6 being a QRT for a Ranger platoon, that's absurd.

10 posted on 08/10/2011 7:03:24 AM PDT by Palter (Celebrate diversity .22, .223, .25, 9mm, .32 .357, 10mm, .44, .45, .500)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!
There should be a through investigation of this incident.....and heads should roll.
11 posted on 08/10/2011 7:04:56 AM PDT by mickie
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

Sounds and feels like Jimmuh Carter II.

Gunner


12 posted on 08/10/2011 7:05:02 AM PDT by weps4ret (Democrats + Liberal Stream Media = Blood Liable)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

My 24 year old daughter, who knows even less about military operations than I do (which I know very little) questioned why so many SEALS were in one helicopter. I think it’s a good question.


13 posted on 08/10/2011 7:08:01 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: Thane_Banquo

It was reported in the media FWIW they were rescuing another elite special ops force (The Army Rangers) If you read this article it implies that the Rangers may not of been in need or in dire straits? It is just strange. The best of the best rarely fail but it is war. It is very difficult to comment on; as these things much less the names of the dead and details of Op’s are generally not in the news. With Obama as POTUS they have been.


14 posted on 08/10/2011 7:09:06 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid! (S&P wasn't worried about us not lifting the debt ceiling - they are worried about the spending)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

question...

since support didn’t arrive ...

what happened to the ranger unit that was in trouble?


15 posted on 08/10/2011 7:11:38 AM PDT by sten (fighting tyranny never goes out of style)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

A strategic asset used in a tactical deployment.


16 posted on 08/10/2011 7:12:15 AM PDT by junta ("Peace is a racket", testimony from crime boss Barrack Hussein Obama.)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

One thing I wasn’t sure of. Did the choppers exfil the SEALS by the same route they engressed? This would be a major break of protocol if so. If not, then, as others here have suspected, one of the Afghan national guys gave them up.


17 posted on 08/10/2011 7:12:41 AM PDT by Thane_Banquo
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To: ilovesarah2012

Where’s Leon????


18 posted on 08/10/2011 7:16:17 AM PDT by not2worry (A credible message needs a credible messenger because charisma without character is catastrophe.)
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To: Thane_Banquo

This is all unprecedented. The details and that there were two elite forces involved; should have never been released. Somebody seemed to have screwed up. There was rumors talk articles of Obama pondering back when of funding the taliban.This should have never hit the public but it may be because some heads will roll somewhere. It’s crazy unprecedented all around.


19 posted on 08/10/2011 7:19:33 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid! (S&P wasn't worried about us not lifting the debt ceiling - they are worried about the spending)
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To: sten

Excellent question that should not even be discussed publically but it is unusual for commandos to speak out.


20 posted on 08/10/2011 7:23:35 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid! (S&P wasn't worried about us not lifting the debt ceiling - they are worried about the spending)
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To: ilovesarah2012

I know. I agree. It is just not right all around. I heard the same from all different types of people that are usually clueless to who the VP is. ABC news needs to be told to remove the names immediately and the MSM needs to stop but someone high up in government has to be feeding the media beast. The WH leaked way too much when OBL was killed.There is no respect,honor or character in the MSM or WH.


21 posted on 08/10/2011 7:29:03 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid! (S&P wasn't worried about us not lifting the debt ceiling - they are worried about the spending)
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To: sten

The ambush was set for the return leg of the mission, not the outbound.


22 posted on 08/10/2011 7:29:03 AM PDT by MortMan (What disease did cured ham used to have?)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

i was always under the impression the rangers like being surrounded.... more targets

it seems fairly unlikely a ranger unit would call for support which, if it didn’t arrive, would survive the fight

my guess... the entire situation was a setup and payoff

just before ramadan

dates matter to muslims


23 posted on 08/10/2011 7:30:32 AM PDT by sten (fighting tyranny never goes out of style)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!
The first option to support the Rangers should
have been an A-10 with 30mm zippers.

The chain of command is FUBAR


24 posted on 08/10/2011 7:33:28 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

So now they got the guys that got the seals. The end of the
witness trail. Now I ask you did we really get OBL?
And if we did, could this be a setup to restore Saudi Honer?
I wouldn’t put it past Obama.
Or. They are getting these guys (seal team) off the books
so they can live a long and safe life?


25 posted on 08/10/2011 7:38:50 AM PDT by Slambat (The right to keep and bear arms. Anything one man can carry, drive or pull.)
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To: RitchieAprile

?”Sometimes you have to take
whatever is at hand.”
Except according to Army Times it is part of a mission to have some special ops people in the air with cobras.

If someone authorized the ground special forces in without accompanying support he should be court martialed.
This from Army Times
“The personnel in the helicopter belonged to an “immediate reaction force” that was en route to support troops in contact on the ground, said the NSW member. An immediate reaction force differs from a quick reaction force in that the former is built into the mission plan and is on site during the raid, sometimes circling the action in a helicopter, waiting to be committed if needed, whereas a quick reaction force is typically brought forward from the rear, the NSW source said.”


26 posted on 08/10/2011 7:39:21 AM PDT by RWGinger
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To: UriÂ’el-2012

I agree. Why don’t we have more A-10’s than anything else? Those things are scary.


27 posted on 08/10/2011 7:44:31 AM PDT by old3030 (I lost some time once. It's always in the last place you look.)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!
I agree; probabbly some NATO, REMF, who we will never know his ID and who will never be held responsible for this fiasco.

Which also BEGS what I have been asking since first learning about this Chinese Fire Drill which costs the lives of so many our our brave Warriors?

WHY was not an airstrike (from fast movers, apache helos, cruise missiles, or drones) used in the 1st place, rather than rely on using the SEALS as a "Rapid Response Team" to help out the Army who though were under fire, had not (as reported) suffered any casualties.

Allow me to speculate: The Hate-America/Military, FASCIST, Neo-Commie, Islamic-Jihadist, appeaser and "Defender-in-Chief's" Rules of Engagement, which dictate that before any raids, the village/province Chief MUST be informed prior thereto as well as local AF-GAN military (who we all know how "Reliable and Loyal" they are) must accopany our guys on said raids.

No chance for a betrayal or an "ambush" under those circumstances, right???

Morevoer, our Dear Leader (aided and abetted by the Chicken Hawks and PC wusses in the Pentagon) is more interested and concerned with "Hearts and Minds" and "Nation Building" as well as insuring not ONE Af-Gan civilian is injured he would as soon sacrifice needlessly, our own Military in order to achieve this goal.

As a Nam Vet I am disgusted and fed up and see too many similarities between what we experienced and now, thus I've changed my mind and vote to bring em' all home and bring em' home NOW!!!

28 posted on 08/10/2011 7:47:10 AM PDT by Conservative Vermont Vet (l)
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To: ilovesarah2012
Your dau. is very wise. I never liked flying in those things. Loud (4 engines), slow, large. RPG bait. 12.7mm bait. Bullet magnets. Exit out the back via ramp hydraulically operated. Although it would be lowered before we landed, it took quite a long time for so many troops with 70 pound packs and weapons of all sorts to clear the helicopter. Never wanted to be the last guy off. No one did.

All helicopters are especially vulnerable during takeoff/landing. They are under tremendous stress anyway, so anything impacting them will have an adverse effect. Even small arms. RPGs very effective at close range. Destructive as well.

This horrific tragedy seems to have been due, perhaps, to the "fog of war."

29 posted on 08/10/2011 7:50:10 AM PDT by donozark (Never loan money to a preacher...)
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To: Conservative Vermont Vet

You have been living in Bernieland too long. :-)


30 posted on 08/10/2011 7:51:56 AM PDT by verity (The Obama Administration is a Criminal Enterprise.)
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To: brownsfan
Prayers for the fallen warriors and their families. I had the same though when I first heard about this tragedy. During my brief tour of Afghanistan I was able to spot the modified CH-47 in action, very fast, low and quiet, which is the reason they put them all in there.

The op security in the theater is taken very seriously, which is why I keep asking myself how did such ideal circumstances evolve to where the Taliban were obviously prepared and waiting to take this flight down once it arrived on station. I smell a cover-up.

31 posted on 08/10/2011 7:53:29 AM PDT by semaj (Anybody who claims that violence never solved anything is a liar..., just ask the government.)
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To: ilovesarah2012
Yeah....and if they are on a "rescue" mission ....how come so many troops are jam packed into the helicopter..?

What were they expected to bring back....a few sets of ID tags weighing a few ounces....

and what medical equipment / medics were on the mission...?

32 posted on 08/10/2011 7:54:19 AM PDT by spokeshave (Obamas approval ratings are so low, Kenyans are accusing him of being born in the USA.)
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To: Slambat

No way the second part could be reality. It is not normal to put seals in a witness protection program type of deal. Your point would be because their unit and identity were compromised in the MSM when OBL was taken out therefore undoing a MSM Obama admin leak. If this were the case the names would not have been released to compromise their families.


33 posted on 08/10/2011 7:57:42 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid! (S&P wasn't worried about us not lifting the debt ceiling - they are worried about the spending)
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To: spokeshave

Like I said, lots of questions. Sad when you view your own government as the enemy, but I do.


34 posted on 08/10/2011 7:57:58 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: semaj

“I smell a cover-up.”

I wasn’t there, I don’t know much about the special forces, but I wouldn’t put it past the Obama administration to offer this “in trade” for Osama Bin Laden. Since the Taliban and the Pakistanis are essentially the same thing, a move to soothe the Pakistanis?


35 posted on 08/10/2011 7:58:16 AM PDT by brownsfan (I miss the America I grew up in.)
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To: Conservative Vermont Vet

The higher the rank the more liberal the big wigs tend to be but all of these leaks (what spec ops took out OBL) and now their names,details,operation , released; is just not normal.Spec Ops and the brave individuals that carry them out never get any glory or recognition for good reasons. Until Obama.

Only things for sure are: Obama’s ROE are heinous,Obama as CIC is heinous. On Obama’s watch loose lips and the MSM are heinous....


36 posted on 08/10/2011 8:07:55 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid! (S&P wasn't worried about us not lifting the debt ceiling - they are worried about the spending)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!
...just the two cent's worth from a guy that doesn't KNOW squat...

...quick reaction force or IRF, or whatever, is just the standard cover story...

...1) those types of forces are usually smaller (see Operation Red Wings)...

...2) there was a dog and handler on board, not QRF, more like snatch and grab...

...3) grapevines were burning up the prior week about big "stuff" coming up...

...4) one "regular guy" helo smells of undercover, "no need to worry about us"...

...like i said, just the ramblings of an nobody...

37 posted on 08/10/2011 8:15:37 AM PDT by cyberaxe (....Uuuummpphhhh.....)
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To: ilovesarah2012

...another dirty lie from an inept, ignoble administration...


38 posted on 08/10/2011 8:16:00 AM PDT by gargoyle (...This looks like a good fight, deal me in...)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!; Conservative Vermont Vet
If some AA twit wrote Seals in a Chinook as Plan "B"
in the Ranger battle plan they need to be court-martialed.

Oh I guess they did not follow the battle plan or they panicked.

Again Court-martialed.

FUBAR


39 posted on 08/10/2011 8:16:29 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

ANy doubts I had about this have now been erased. Now I am 99.9% sure that this was a loose lips sink ships op.


40 posted on 08/10/2011 8:23:41 AM PDT by mojitojoe ( 1400 years of existence & Islam has 2 main accomplishments, psychotic violence and goat curry)
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To: sten

...As they say, “You don’t have the need to know.” That means cover-up...

...BTW, not to put down “elite” units, but, any military loss of life is a tragedy...


41 posted on 08/10/2011 8:28:05 AM PDT by gargoyle (...This looks like a good fight, deal me in...)
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To: Conservative Vermont Vet

WHY was not an airstrike (from fast movers, apache helos, cruise missiles, or drones) used in the 1st place, rather than rely on using the SEALS as a “Rapid Response Team” to help out the Army who though were under fire, had not (as reported) suffered any casualties.

______________________________

Great question. I have wondered the same thing. Pure speculation on my part but I am guessing the Rules of Engagement have changed to an extreme point where they are more afraid of one “civilian” casualty than they are of losing a helicopter flying at low altitude from a lucky shot.

Hell of a way to fight a war. The Taliban routinely use civilians to shield them from airstrikes. We never learn.


42 posted on 08/10/2011 8:37:26 AM PDT by volunbeer (Keep the dope, we'll make the change in 2012!)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

I’m hoping that this is the military disappearing their best men in order to use them while Obama is still president.

Of course, it would be best served if they suddenly reappeared right before Obama’s impeachment.


43 posted on 08/10/2011 8:48:30 AM PDT by struggle
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To: ilovesarah2012

I think that the theories of “conspiracy” are probably stretched. Here is why:

If you were a Taliban soldier, some of whom have been fighting “invaders” since I was a boy you would begin to pick up on the tactics of your enemy.

As a guerrilla warrior you would know where the troops are being dispatched from. Would you not set a person up to watch the airfield?

When you attack a group with overwhelming force, they in turn would call for help. Your person watching the airfield (or the entrances to the valley) would call and let you know when the chopper is coming. That would give you pretty decent time to prepare for the arrival in a choke point.

And, then its a lucky shot.

If you think like an insurgent, it seems pretty straightforward.

What you cannot do is make the assumption that these fighters are stupid. Poor does not equate to stupid.

They seemed pretty smart when they were knocking USSR choppers out of the air.

I hate that our guys are dead, and I hate that they sent in so many on a chopper. But I think the simplest answer is usually the most likely to be correct.


44 posted on 08/10/2011 8:51:21 AM PDT by Vermont Lt ("Will No One Rid US of This Meddlesome Priest?")
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To: cyberaxe; Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!
...2) there was a dog and handler on board, not QRF, more like snatch and grab...

Keen insight.

45 posted on 08/10/2011 8:59:20 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Palter
More so that the SEAL team wanted to get into the action and suggested they 'enter' the operation, unplanned. Just a theory.

I have wondered that myself.

46 posted on 08/10/2011 9:00:57 AM PDT by ansel12 ( Bristol Palin's book "Not Afraid Of Life: My Journey So Far" became a New York Times, best seller.)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

When I was a young Platoon Leader, I was sure that my platoon could defeat the entire Warsaw Pact. Some old guys wearing combat patches shamed me into realizing that my Soldier’s lives were more important and that the US taxpayers had spent a good deal of money to provide me with things to help me like artillery and helicopters and engineers. If I was in a shooting match, I’d be calling for all the support I could get. I’m not sure that it’s a good idea to put everyone on one helicopter, but two helicopters provides twice as many targets.


47 posted on 08/10/2011 9:11:03 AM PDT by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: Thane_Banquo

I’m no expert, but would tend to agree. This would seem to be a Rangers / Marines type mission, not a SEAL mission.


48 posted on 08/10/2011 9:23:41 AM PDT by FreedomPoster (Islam delenda est)
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The question remains, where they sacrificed because of the political exploitation related to the UBL mission?


49 posted on 08/10/2011 9:31:11 AM PDT by Gene Eric (May our dreams converge for a free and prosperous nation.)
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To: Vermont Lt

You know, you are probably correct in your well-thought out post.

It really speaks volumes to the level of crap that we are experiencing right now, where so many of us out here (myself included) have to the very first thought cross our minds that this assclown in charge set up our own boys to get whacked. And what’s REALLY horrible is that it’s an entirely plausible and believable scenario, knowing his background, the backgrounds of his comrades, and who he was raised by and who he hung out with all his life.

What an effed up state of affairs we’ve come to.

God rest the souls of those warriors, and grant their families some measure of peace.


50 posted on 08/10/2011 9:55:02 AM PDT by NFHale (The Second Amendment - By Any Means Necessary.)
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