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If not college, then what? (What's the alternative if going into tuition debt is too burdensome?)
CNN ^ | 08/12/2011 | Jamie Gumbrecht

Posted on 08/12/2011 7:46:43 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

At dinner tables throughout the United States, there are tough conversations about the exploding cost of college, the rough job market, the pain of debt.

For parents and students, it adds up to the same question: Is college worth it?

But American University economics Professor Robert Lerman is asking something different: If college isn't worth it, what else is out there?

Lerman, an Urban Institute fellow, has studied youth unemployment for decades, and thinks the United States ought to try an updated version of an old technique for education and employment: apprenticeships.

They're not the same as an after-school fast food job or a summer internship at dad's office, he said. Apprenticeships require skill development in a workplace over a number of years. The education, which might be supplemented by classroom training, leads to a credential -- maybe a title, certification or diploma -- that proves mastery of a skill. During that time, apprentices are paid, and employers are getting another worker.

"In many countries, apprenticeship training and mastery is thought of as a big advantage in innovation -- you have people seeing things, but have skills to understand them, make adjustments and achieve high quality," Lerman said.

It's been a long time since apprenticeship dominated in the United States. Despite the Obama administration's focus on community colleges, which often house workplace-learning programs, apprenticeship programs draw few government resources, and reach relatively few fields, mostly construction and manufacturing.

In a paper published last year, Lerman said about 468,000 people were in 27,000 apprenticeship programs registered with the U.S. Department of Labor in 2008. That was about .3% of the workforce at the time.

Up to 1 million more were in unregistered programs, the report said.

(Excerpt) Read more at edition.cnn.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: broke; college; debt; jobs; scam; tuition; work
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To: Dilbert San Diego
Most middle class people want their kids to have a job where they sit in an office and work on a computer. Many think it’s a step down to work in a “blue collar” type of trade.

My neighbor's son is taking his newly minted engineering degree and working for a construction company. Last night I saw the steel toed boots line up in the garage. He will be working on construction sites. His parents are VERY proud of him and happy he will do something he loves. They are fairly well off, but understand that their kids have strengths that might not lead to a typical or office job (perhaps that's why they do so well).

Maybe young people need better information about which college degrees DO qualify you for some entry level positions afterward.

The information is out there at a lot of schools. A good school will let you know who is employing their grads, especially locally and regionally, how many go on to grad school, and the internships offered to their students. The problem is that this is often ignored.

21 posted on 08/12/2011 8:31:24 AM PDT by PrincessB (Drill Baby Drill.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Oh, so correct. I was trained from age 10 (that’s right..age ten) to be a watchmaker...the third generation of the family.
66 years later I still cannot keep pace with the demand. I get calls and e-mail from across the USA regarding watches that cannot be repaired locally.
I refuse to work more than 48 hours a week, so I turn down many watches.
In 2011, there are too many laws and bureaucrats that keep me from taking on an apprentice, such as I was.
I have merely a High School diploma AND a trade that has supported me for a lifetime.


22 posted on 08/12/2011 8:39:13 AM PDT by CaptainAmiigaf (NY TIMES: "We print the news as it fits our views")
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To: CaptainAmiigaf

Just curious, why would people want to repair their watches when they can buy watches cheaply everywhere?


23 posted on 08/12/2011 8:41:06 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: Dilbert San Diego

I minored in studying women in college. Not much for job prospects, but the homework was fun.


24 posted on 08/12/2011 8:46:44 AM PDT by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: jersey117

Personally, I like to get dirty & at the end of the day, I’m dirty smelly & soaking wet. I do HVAC north of Houston in God’s country. I tell my customers & others, if your HVAC tech is showing up all clean, he’s not fixing anything, he’s selling new systems. My motto is, “I love to fix what others wish to replace.” My customers trust me implicitely because they know I carry thousands in parts and 95% of the time I have their part plus, I’ve been doing this for almost 40 yrs. When it’s hot like it has been my phone rings like crazy plus my customers know, I’ll respond immediately or if on a call they know they are next.
Trust me, I could make way more money than most college grads but the fact is this #1 I’m 55yrs old & I do not install attic units in the summer due both to my age & I can’t ethically pay an installer the going rate of $200 for an attic install especially since I personally would never do it in the summer for even 10 times that amount.
Lone Star Com College has an outstanding HVAC program but the contractors simply pay too little for apprentices. #2 I could surely grow my business easily but it’s so much easier for me to only worry about myself. If I did have employees I’d be worried about Obamacare & my requirements.


25 posted on 08/12/2011 8:54:39 AM PDT by She hits a grand slam tonight
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To: SeekAndFind

If you think education is expensive, you should try ignorance.


26 posted on 08/12/2011 8:57:18 AM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send the GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism.)
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To: SeekAndFind
We have to get over this whole "blue collar" "white Collar", job title crap. We are all basically selling something. My dad calls Medical Doctors Medical Merchants. He says they are selling something just like everyone else, and he is right. The job title is not important, it's how ell the job is done that has real value.

A good janitor is much more valuable than a poor surgeon. Think about it.

One more gripe, Let's get away from all these "professional" titles and ranks. A dentist should be called a dentist, not doctor. A Chiropractor should be called a chiropractor, not doctor. It is silly to put "esquire" after an attorney's name. Once you have served your term you are no longer a senator, congressman, judge, ambassador etc., and should not be called by these titles. It is pretentious and downright silly.

I spent many years in the martial arts and my instructor in Okinawa decried the use of "belts". He believed everyone who trained was "bushi" or warrior, no other differentiation was necessary. Everyone knew who had trained harder and longer by the obvious results. No "black belts" should be necessary, although as director of one of the larger organizations, he went along with the modern use of black belts.

I guess the point is, life should be thought of more like a foxhole during a battle. You don't give a damn about the rank or title or economic status of the guy next to you, you are only concerned about how well he will do his job.

27 posted on 08/12/2011 8:57:29 AM PDT by Prokopton
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To: SeekAndFind

Until I retired, I owned a computer store and a computer networking business. College grads were absolutely worthless. I was actually embarrassed for them. The best employee I ever had was a young man who learned because he was interested and searched out every source he could to learn about computers. He was 13 when he first came into the store and started to just hang around the back room with us. Even at that age he put every college grad that came in to apply to shame.


28 posted on 08/12/2011 9:01:15 AM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: SeekAndFind
Hmmm. My husband and I worked our way through college and we're now working our way through my grad degree. The idea of taking out a loan, even for my private school grad degree, never crossed our minds. We just waited until we had the money for me to start. We have 529’s for the kids, but they might still have to work through college. I'm fine with that. Then again, if they have wonderful business skills and want to use that money to start a small business, I would be willing to consider taking the penalties and using the 529 money as start up. They'd have to have a really great business plan first!
29 posted on 08/12/2011 9:14:57 AM PDT by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: SeekAndFind; CaptainAmiigaf

I suspect the watch needing repair is not a watch you can buy anywhere...after a few decades a mechanical watch may need some maintenance, or a person might want to replace the glass, or spring, or something. There are millions of heirloom timepieces around, would you toss a 100-year-old watch in favor of cheap digital nonsense? You might be throwing away a part of your family heritage! a friend has a clock that’s been with his family for generations (it’s at least 200 years old), he takes it to the watchmaker every year to make sure it stays functional.


30 posted on 08/12/2011 9:25:27 AM PDT by no-s (B.L.O.A.T. and every day...because some day soon they won't be making any more...for you.)
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To: SeekAndFind

When a thread comes up like this I usually post our experience, because it is possible to do “college” tuition free.

A few caveats...you must live in an area with colleges (we have a State U, several community colleges, and several private universities within about a 40 mile commute.) The kid must be willing to live at home so you don’t have to spend money on room and board (so give up “the college experience” whatever that is.) We didn’t figure out how to avoid the costs of books and gas, but those were the only costs. Here’s how our son did it.

Start Dual Credit in 10th grade at the community college. They have to test into College Alg and Comp I, so do what you have to do before 10th grade to prepare them to meet those qualifications. Tuition free, and by 12th grade you have an AA and a High school diploma.

We used a merit based program for the bachelor’s degree, so the kid has to study hard and do well on SAT’s and maintain a good grade point plus community service in order to qualify. It pays tuition at a State University for the Bachelor’s. So BA is tuition free (cost of gas was more for this degree because the commute was 35 miles each way.)

Grad school...score well on the GMAT and you can be offered a job as a TA, which means you give 20 hours a week to a help a prof, and the school (this time it was a private university) covers your tuition for Grad School, plus a small stipend. Another longer commute, about 20 miles one way.

Another big advantage, you get out early, if you can stay motivated and work hard. AA age 17/18, Bachelor’s age 19/20, and grad degree age 21/22.

The hardest part was the final semester of grad school because it involved 3 days a week as an intern at a company (good thing was of a job upon graduation), 2 days a week as a TA, 3 nights a week (3 hour classes) of grad classes, not to mention weekends being filled with homework, group projects, test studying, and social life that could be fit in.

We picked up car costs, gas, and the cost of books (during grad school his stipend covered the books.) We just kept telling him he’d be glad if he perservered, I don’t think he always believed us, but now, looking back from a couple years down the road, degrees in hand, married to a wonderful girl and a great job w/out a lot of money struggles because of college debt, he’s a happy guy.


31 posted on 08/12/2011 9:29:02 AM PDT by dawn53
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To: AGreatPer

The economy needs more productive citizens like your son. I mean, Starbucks can’t hire every college graduate.


32 posted on 08/12/2011 9:32:02 AM PDT by MinorityRepublican
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To: ilovesarah2012
Community colleges - learn a trade that won’t be outsourced.

For those trade we have 'guest workers' and illegal aliens.
33 posted on 08/12/2011 9:34:49 AM PDT by algernonpj (He who pays the piper . . .)
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To: SeekAndFind

the Marcellus Shale Gas drillers in my area are absolutely desperate for welders, mechanics, heavy machine operators, drilling techs, etc. Provided the EPA doesn’t shut it all down.


34 posted on 08/12/2011 9:50:39 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: Buckeye McFrog

Is this New York bordering Pennsylvania? I heard that fracking has finally been approved, when is drilling going to start?


35 posted on 08/12/2011 9:58:11 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (u)
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To: SeekAndFind

Something you could buy for a few bucks anywhere certainly gets tossed. However...
Yesterday I finished overhauling a watch YOU would throw out..old beat up looking Hamilton from 1938. A family treasure.. because..
The watch jumped into Normandy on D-Day with its owner. BOTH wounded at Bastogne (owner shrapnet...watch busted crystal)
It went with the owner from the Pusan Perimeter to the 38th parallel. In the 1960’s the watch was worn to Vietnam by the son of the original owner. Another generation wore the watch to Desert Storm. Last month the watch came home safely from Afghanistan and then to me for service.
These are the millions of watches, each with a deep history with an individual or generations of a single family.


36 posted on 08/12/2011 10:44:06 AM PDT by CaptainAmiigaf (NY TIMES: "We print the news as it fits our views")
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To: SeekAndFind

Everyone moans about crushing debt and dismal job prospects, but no one wants to talk about the core reason for all this misery: YOUR KID SHOULDN’T GO TO COLLEGE.

Unless your kid has demonstrated a capacity to handle higher mathematics and science, he’s got no business in college. 90 percent of undergrads don’t.

I don’t care if some teacher deemed your kid “gifted.” I don’t care that he plays a wicked guitar or she makes witty remarks. And sports scholarships? If you’re NFL or NBA bound, you should skip college — they’re ripping you off.

Only professionals (doctors, engineers, particle physicists, pharmacists, military officers) need higher education. If you like to read and write about Mark Twain and Marcus Aurelius, go do it when you finish your daily course at the vocational school where you’re learning to make pastry.

Of course, rich people will always find a way to get Junior into Yale (hi, John Kerry and George Bush!). But you’re not rich. You’re middle class, and the middle class is not training replacements for itself. Try getting a plumber for this afternoon. That is why the middle class is disappearing.

We’d rather be poor in cheap ties sitting in cubicles churning e-mail all day — on machines we can’t even give a thumbnail sketch of how they work — than wear Dickies and rewire an electrical box.

Our universities — including the Ivy League — are “training” orchestras composed of ushers, ticket-takers, and stage sweepers instead of people who can actually play the violin.


37 posted on 08/12/2011 10:58:01 AM PDT by Blue Ink
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To: CaptainAmiigaf

You just made me smile and be proud of our country. For both the journey of the watch and the passion you show for respecting time.

God Bless and Thank You


38 posted on 08/12/2011 11:12:58 AM PDT by EBH (God Humbles Nations, Leaders, and Peoples before He uses them for His Purpose)
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To: SeekAndFind

It should be possible to smoke dope, get laid, and study Marxism without the big bills...


39 posted on 08/12/2011 11:23:22 AM PDT by Jim Noble (To live peacefully with credit-based consumption and fiat money, men would have to be angels.)
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