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English Historian Blames Black Culture for Riots
New York Times ^ | August 13, 2011 | ROBERT MACKEY

Posted on 08/13/2011 1:43:24 PM PDT by reaganaut1

During a televised discussion of the past week’s riots in England on Friday night, a prominent English historian sparked outrage by insisting that black, Afro-Caribbean culture was to blame for the mayhem and looting, even when the rioters were white.

David Starkey, who has presented several documentaries on the Tudor period, said during a BBC debate: “the problem is that the whites have become black — a particular sort of violent, destructive, nihilistic gangster culture has become the fashion — and black and white, boy and girl, operate in this language together; this language, which is wholly false, which is a Jamaican patois, that’s been intruded in England, and this is why so many of us have this sense of literally a foreign country.”

Asked if he was saying that the prophecy of Enoch Powell — an English politician who claimed in a speech in 1968 that immigration would eventually mean, “the black man will have the whip hand over the white man” in Britain — had come true, Mr. Starkey replied: “That’s not true.” He added, “it’s not skin color, it’s cultural.”

The historian then sought to illustrate his point by referring to the way one of London’s leading black politicians, David Lammy, speaks. “Listen to David Lammy,” Mr. Starkey said, “an archetypical, successful black man: if you turned the screen off, so that you were listening to him on radio, you’d think he was white.”

The other participants in the debate quickly objected to Mr. Starkey’s remarks. Owen Jones, the author of a book about working class culture in Britain, told the historian: “It’s utterly outrageous, obviously, what you’re saying. What you’re doing is you’re equating black culture with criminality.”

(Excerpt) Read more at thelede.blogs.nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: barackpower; blackcrime; blacks; caribbean; culturewars; immigration; maybealittleblow; multiculturalism; obama; obamaa; obamastash; pagingcaptrenault
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Well, blacks ARE more violent than whites on average.
1 posted on 08/13/2011 1:43:26 PM PDT by reaganaut1
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To: reaganaut1

As you can see, truth hurts.

A lot.


2 posted on 08/13/2011 1:45:37 PM PDT by Flintlock (Photo ID for all voters--let our dead rest in peace.)
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To: reaganaut1

I’m sure the New York Slimes is having a hissy fit over this.


3 posted on 08/13/2011 1:46:10 PM PDT by WashingtonSource
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To: reaganaut1

I can’t speak for England but in America, “black culture” was an artificial creation to benefit the democrats.

Looking back to the 30s, 40s, and 50s, black culture was pretty much indistinguishable from the rest of American culture. In the case of black conservatives, they’re still regular old Americans.


4 posted on 08/13/2011 1:49:06 PM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin)
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To: reaganaut1
English Historian Blames Black Culture for Riots

Yeah, I think it's the commie culture more than the "black culture."

5 posted on 08/13/2011 1:50:25 PM PDT by ROCKLOBSTER ( Celebrate Republicans Freed the Slaves Month.)
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To: reaganaut1

Is it not hilarious that the NYT is writing about this and yet, when it came to the Tea Party, and blacks and hispanics making up some of those Tea Party “crowds”, they - the Tea Party - were labeled racists..... =.=


6 posted on 08/13/2011 1:51:45 PM PDT by cranked
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To: reaganaut1

Even if there were an equal number of white and black rioters — blacks would be about 40 times over-represented, based on Britain’s demographics.


7 posted on 08/13/2011 1:53:01 PM PDT by USFRIENDINVICTORIA
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To: reaganaut1

I disagree with this guy. Its not “black culture.” West Indian blacks and many African blacks are a hell of a lot more industrious, law-abiding and civic-minded than a number of Welfare case whites. Its clear that when whites buy into the entitlement culture, they are lazy and disrespectful. We see examples in Britain. A lot of the rioters are white. Then we see the example of the black woman who turned in her daughter because it was the right thing to do. The reason this can be mistaken for “black culture” is because blacks come into contact with the Welfare state the most.


8 posted on 08/13/2011 1:53:23 PM PDT by Opinionated Blowhard ("When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.")
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To: reaganaut1
The left is overjoyed 25% of the looters were White. That in itself is reason for them to give a pass to the 75% with a swarthy complexion.
9 posted on 08/13/2011 1:54:16 PM PDT by Realman30 ("I've already made a donation to Haiti. It's called taxes". . . . El Rushbo.)
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To: reaganaut1

There probably as many whites with the gansta mentality as Blacks.

I heard a guy this Am (British) He said From Blair to present the Welfare entitlement mentality has destroyed British Culture. He said that there are a great number of Brits that have not had a job in 20 years and their children have grow up to expect EVERYTHING to be provided for by the GOV. He also blamed the multiculturalism that has destroyed British Society.
No National identity or values.
It is going to take a harsh pulling out the Socialist Society by the roots. These mobs of lazy leaches will not take it sitting down. count on it.


10 posted on 08/13/2011 2:00:01 PM PDT by Marty62 (Marty60)
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To: cripplecreek

“I can’t speak for England but in America, “black culture” was an artificial creation to benefit the democrats.”

Yep, and is there anything funnier than Mr. Obama, educated at an expensive private high school, Columbia, and Harvard, pretend to speak in a Southern negro dialect? What an insult to every American of whatever color, well-educated, or never having had the opportunity to have a good education! You’re not one of us, Barack.


11 posted on 08/13/2011 2:02:28 PM PDT by July4 (Remember the price paid for your freedom.)
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To: cripplecreek
The rate of illegitimacy among blacks was once lower than it is today among whites. When you correct for the effects of illegitimate birth in a fatherless household, the crime rate among blacks today is no worse than among whites.

You can thank the cultural Marxists for destroying Western culture. It's what they set out to do.

12 posted on 08/13/2011 2:04:39 PM PDT by hellbender
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To: Marty62
"These mobs of lazy leaches will not take it sitting down. count on it.

This precisely what we are going to see here in the US very soon. Most likely after the election and especially if a Republican wins. Unfortunate but there can be no doubt it is coming to our cities once the money is gone.

13 posted on 08/13/2011 2:06:18 PM PDT by Graneros ("It is no exaggeration to say that the undecided could go one way or another.")
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To: cripplecreek

“Looking back to the 30s, 40s, and 50s, black culture was pretty much indistinguishable from the rest of American culture.”

I have heard - but not seen verified - that during the period you mention church affiliations were higher and out of wedlock birth statistics were actually lower in the black population compared to the US population as a whole.

Then came The Great Society, War on Poverty, War on Drugs and Sexual Revolution.


14 posted on 08/13/2011 2:06:51 PM PDT by Psalm 144 (Voodoo Republicans: Don't read their lips - watch their hands.)
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To: reaganaut1

It’s only the intrenched welfare blacks that are the problem. When a person gives up on life and accepts handouts, he is no longer a human being, capable of incredible achievement. Liberalism destroyed this country and I don’t think there is a “going back.” I have the utmost respect for black people along with anyone else who receives an education and contributes to the common good of our society. Everyone else, regardless of color, is a parasite deserving of extinction.


15 posted on 08/13/2011 2:06:57 PM PDT by New Jersey Realist (Congress doesn't care a damn about "we the people")
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To: reaganaut1

According to my friends who work in high schools around the US, gangsta hiphop is a major problem and they can’t figure out how to solve it.


16 posted on 08/13/2011 2:06:59 PM PDT by texmexis best
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To: Opinionated Blowhard
The reason this can be mistaken for “black culture” is because blacks come into contact with the Welfare state the most.

You speak PC very, very well!

17 posted on 08/13/2011 2:08:14 PM PDT by LasVegasMac (Have ya hit 'em in the a$$, Never let off the gas 'til ya rolled into Victory Lane?)
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To: USFRIENDINVICTORIA

Have the larger cities in England turned into chocolate cities?


18 posted on 08/13/2011 2:08:37 PM PDT by 353FMG
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To: July4

I knew an old southern black woman from my childhood till she passed away when I was in my mid 30s. She always treated me as if I were her own son.

One of her sons was killed in a gang thing and the other was in prison pretty much forever but I never heard Pearl blame whites. She just said her sons got “Mixed up an ruint”.


19 posted on 08/13/2011 2:09:39 PM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin)
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To: New Jersey Realist
I have the utmost respect for black people along with anyone else who receives an education and contributes to the common good of our society.

That's one of the things that has impressed me about Curtis Granderson who plays for the Yankees. When he was playing for the Tigers I saw an interview with BOTH of his parents and was impressed. They said they didn't send him to college to play baseball, they sent him to college for the education.
20 posted on 08/13/2011 2:15:33 PM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin)
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: Psalm 144

Erik Bonhoeffer was the German minister who took his fight directly to the nazis (and eventually died for it). He found his particuliar brand of faith in black churches of America and took that back to Germany with him.

The left has since claimed him as they often do but Bonhoeffer sat in the pews long before liberation theology and social justice infected churches.

In his book “Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy” Eric Metaxas attempts to correct the record. Its a powerful story.

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=bonhoeffer&tag=mh0b-20&index=stripbooks&hvadid=19401766&ref=pd_sl_20badg39dz_e


22 posted on 08/13/2011 2:25:24 PM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin)
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To: reaganaut1

Depends on what you define “violence” as. Do you include “violence” as shanking a kid for his lunch money and exclude conflicts between empires which results in the deaths of millions or reckless driving in the suburbs.
(There’s actually a 13-1 ratio of dying in the suburbs of a car accident than dying in the city of a murder). You can’t pepper spray a car.

Anyway, I would take anything he says with a grain of salt.

“The author declared a national holiday for England, he criticised Scottish, Irish and Welsh nationalisms describing these nations as “feeble little countries”. In the same context, he described England as a “formerly great” nation”

So.. how many of you other freepers are of Irish, Scots or Welsh ancestry?


23 posted on 08/13/2011 2:25:30 PM PDT by NorthStarStateConservative (Springtime in America will arrive on January 21, 2013.)
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To: reaganaut1

Calling a spade a spade breaks thru PC wall


24 posted on 08/13/2011 2:25:56 PM PDT by y6162
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To: NorthStarStateConservative

Furthermore, I also want to be on record quoting Ayn Rand.

“Racism is the lowest, most crudely primitive form of collectivism. It is the notion of ascribing moral, social or political significance to a man’s genetic lineage—the notion that a man’s intellectual and characterological traits are produced and transmitted by his internal body chemistry. Which means, in practice, that a man is to be judged, not by his own character and actions, but by the characters and actions of a collective of ancestor”


25 posted on 08/13/2011 2:28:38 PM PDT by NorthStarStateConservative (Springtime in America will arrive on January 21, 2013.)
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To: cripplecreek

Yep, and God bless them for that.

I’m curious how many blacks in the early 60s actually thought the great society programs were going to be a good thing.

It’s my take, that many of them probably dreaded it.

It’s my take also, that what they really wanted, was to simply be allowed to participate and thrive, like the rest of us.

Now that would have been a great society, I could have signed on to.

Instead this nation was wounded to the detriment of all citizens, especially the black family


26 posted on 08/13/2011 2:29:04 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (The Destroyer is anti-US, the West, Christian, Israel, banks, W.S., Corps, & the free enterpr systm.)
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27 posted on 08/13/2011 2:39:18 PM PDT by devolve (. . . . . . . . . . . . . I`M GETTIN` MY BLING WHILE STILL I CAN . . . . .)
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To: hellbender

And then, there are the “useful tools” who are used by the Marxists; and I think some of them have been politicians and Presidents. LBJ seemed to have an almost cynical attitude toward the blacks; and to want to assure ownership of that voting bloc forever through the “War on Poverty”.

Now, when you say “Democrat”, you’ve said “Useful Commie Tool” as far as I go.


28 posted on 08/13/2011 2:40:00 PM PDT by Twinkie (You can't spend your way out of debt !!!)
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To: cripplecreek

The lady that taught me to cook Grits correctly, down in the Black Belt of Alabama, had a similar family problem. She was the salt of the Earth but her kids were on the County or the State.


29 posted on 08/13/2011 2:45:56 PM PDT by Little Bill (Sorry)
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To: cripplecreek

The lady that taught me to cook Grits correctly, down in the Black Belt of Alabama, had a similar family problem. She was the salt of the Earth but her kids were on the County or the State.


30 posted on 08/13/2011 2:47:04 PM PDT by Little Bill (Sorry)
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To: DoughtyOne
I’m curious how many blacks in the early 60s actually thought the great society programs were going to be a good thing.

When progressives lost the racial war they immediately set out to re enslave minority cultures with government largess. The Great Society was an overt effort to chain inner city poverty culture to the democrat party. .

The social service policies of the 60's were intended to stifle personal responsibility and encourage dependence on state services.

It worked. Those who most viciously opposed civil rights regained their place as overlords by breaking down (especially) black culture with policies that rewarded promiscuity and promoted dereliction of parental duties.

These policies persist to this day. The belief that government subsistence is preferable to economic freedom is the cornerstone of progressive ideology.

31 posted on 08/13/2011 2:47:25 PM PDT by Louis Foxwell (This IS my blog site.)
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To: Opinionated Blowhard

Herr Blowhard,
Kindly take a trip to Africa to witness for yourself. The bulk of Africa still operates at the tribal level, no one can get ahead of the chief. A huge impediment to their cultures turning into civilizations. With this, there is the subculture, if you want it , take it. This has been going on for a zillion years. If you have a handle on the English language, you are pegged as white. If you have a education? The majority frame you white and ostracize you.
We see this same culture in the Ebonics gang of America. Its in the rap crap. Its in the hip hop. Over there? Thats the majority. They do not understand that wealth accumulation is a process, they see it as, “man, he musta ripped off a lot of guys”
The blacks over here? Don’t know how good they have it. Every nation there is corrupt to the core. Genocide? Still alive there. Racism? un paralleled , but then again that leads to the genocide. Pal? There is a lot to be said. Take a trip, go live there for a couple of years and you will understand their culture better.

Yes, they do have some industrial strength people but their institutional quality people far out number their good.

Thats here, Britain and in Africa, the home and root of their problem.


32 posted on 08/13/2011 2:52:52 PM PDT by himno hero (Obamarisk)
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To: reaganaut1

I know crime rates are high in Jamaica, but growing up in New York City, Jamaican immigrants tended to be very hard working and orderly. (IIRC, in “Free to Chose”, Milton Friedman claimed that Jamaican immigrants had higher per capita incomes than white Anglo-Saxons.) Also, locally, going back to World War II, in this part of Massachusetts, we get an influx of Jamaican fruit pickers on temporary work permits. They come up during harvest season, pick fruit and live in bunk house dormitories for the few weeks they are here. They are orderly, workmanlike and quite clean. Flannel shirts and jeans, no dreadlocks. The work permits are handed down from father to son and highly prized. They probably make about $12/hour, but are grateful for the work. The farmers vastly prefer the Jamaicans to native Americans, since they are more productive and do far less damage to the trees and are less likely to bruise the fruit.


33 posted on 08/13/2011 2:56:16 PM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (Somewhere in Kenya a village is missing its idiot)
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To: cripplecreek
Watch the documentary “The War”. The blacks who are interviewed speak much better English then their grand and great-grand-childern do.
34 posted on 08/13/2011 3:00:04 PM PDT by MCF
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To: reaganaut1
Well, blacks ARE more violent than whites on average.

In my experience, none of us, both black and white, are that long "out of the trees" and will quickly return to our feral state in the absence of discipline.

35 posted on 08/13/2011 3:12:24 PM PDT by DJ Taylor (Once again our country is at war, and once again the Democrats have sided with our enemy.)
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To: Flintlock

Well, it is layered on a white, lower-class culture, that is not much different. Just read Dickens. Bill Sykes would fit right into the present scene. Not to make a pun, all the blacks do is add color.


36 posted on 08/13/2011 3:16:36 PM PDT by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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To: himno hero

Hard to get a banking system going because property is held in common. Tribalism is an impediment because the individual cannot act apart from the tribe.


37 posted on 08/13/2011 3:20:34 PM PDT by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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To: Little Bill

I think it’s more to the point to call it thug culture, insofar as this particular discussion is concerned.

Thug originates from Thuggee in India, a cultural anomaly where the cult of an obscure goddess gave a religious framework to secret criminal organizations that killed and looted travelers...imaginative people may make comparisons.

It was not recognized as Indian culture, but as a twisted use of religion to manipulate the weak minded, using malleable poor people to commit terrorism for loot. The thuggee “Loot tor Liberation Theology” is no more. The British happened to them.


38 posted on 08/13/2011 3:27:51 PM PDT by tarotsailor
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To: Little Bill

I think it’s more to the point to call it thug culture, insofar as this particular discussion is concerned.

Thug originates from Thuggee in India, a cultural anomaly where the cult of an obscure goddess gave a religious framework to secret criminal organizations that killed and looted travelers...imaginative people may make comparisons.

It was not recognized as Indian culture, but as a twisted use of religion to manipulate the weak minded, using malleable poor people to commit terrorism for loot. The thuggee “Loot tor Liberation Theology” is no more. The British happened to them.


39 posted on 08/13/2011 3:29:13 PM PDT by tarotsailor
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To: reaganaut1

I beg to differ. As a white woman transplant to Georgia, in the 60s - I never experienced animosity or resentment in my relationships with men & women of color. They were gentle, joyful people - in spite of segregation and indignities. Perhaps their strength of character developed because of their ‘second class’ status and struggles to succeed.

It truly is appalling how the government handouts have caused men and women of all cultures to lose parenting and social skills in this society. Once again, we are ‘separate but equal’ in all our deviant and destructive behavior. JMHO


40 posted on 08/13/2011 3:35:39 PM PDT by sodpoodle (Despair; man's surrender. Laughter; God's redemption.)
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To: RobbyS

and NOBODY can get ahead of the chief.

Independent land ownership? Uh-uh. Small subsistence plots is the rule, for their implements and methodology.

Anyone “gets” more money than the chief? more friends? more ideas? more charisma..... the people naturally know that no one can threaten the chief or power hierarchy.... so some of the words of their social action are PHD...pull him down, or, like crabs in a bucket, as soon as one starts to get out, the others reach up and pull him back in.

And the chiefs dont want to hear about democracy as it upsets their rightful hierarchy after all, the chief by day got his “stuff” from his patrilineage and the same for the chief by night. Democracy is the last thing they want to hear about.

They dont need to worry about colonialism pulling them down. uh uh... Nor the White Man.... theys jus gotta look in the mirror.

And the world of islam is no different... just add some imams. Most of it is tribal too.


41 posted on 08/13/2011 3:56:46 PM PDT by himno hero (Obamarisk)
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To: cripplecreek
I can’t speak for England but in America, “black culture” was an artificial creation to benefit the democrats.

Liberalism is to blame.

42 posted on 08/13/2011 4:11:00 PM PDT by dragonblustar
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To: reaganaut1
From 1968 :

ENOCH POWELL

43 posted on 08/13/2011 4:23:44 PM PDT by Publius6961 (My world was lovely, until it was taken over by parasites.)
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To: sodpoodle; reaganaut1; tarotsailor; Little Bill; RobbyS; DJ Taylor; Lonesome in Massachussets; ...
“the problem is that the whites have become black — a particular sort of violent, destructive, nihilistic gangster culture has become the fashion — and black and white, boy and girl, operate in this language together; this language, which is wholly false, which is a Jamaican patois, that’s been intruded in England, and this is why so many of us have this sense of literally a foreign country.”

“it’s not skin color, it’s cultural.”

I will agree with the good doctor that it is cultural and has nothing to do with skin color.

But I will disagree with him in that it has anything to do with African culture.

What I see is the natural consequences of the Socialist Nihilist Multicultural Atheist political atmosphere that has dominated the West since the 1920’s.

The education system that has evolved in the toxic atmosphere of this political system has systematically driven the once highly ethically charged curriculum of Christian theology out of the school system and replaced it with a relativistic multicultural liberal ethics that does nothing to instill self governance in the youth. .

The ethics of Western Christianity that once dominated the schools and home life of our youth implanted a self regulation for the most part kept the peace in our society. Now that Christianity has been driven out of our schools for generations the self governance has been so diluted by the Nihilism of Leftist thought our cities have become a black parody of the “Lord of the Flies”.

44 posted on 08/13/2011 4:25:22 PM PDT by Pontiac (The welfare state must fail because it is contrary to human nature and diminishes the human spirit.)
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To: reaganaut1

When minorities are relatively a small portion of the population and thus have little political power, they tend to behave.

Once their numbers increase to the point where they gain some power and influence, they begin to show their true colors.


45 posted on 08/13/2011 4:27:30 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: reaganaut1

He’s right!!

The black cultures throughout the world — including here — have a much higher tolerance for violent and sociopathic behavior than others. It — and not racism — explains the disproportionate numbers of black folks in our prisons.

The sad fact is that much of that black violence is against OTHER blacks!!


46 posted on 08/13/2011 4:34:16 PM PDT by Dick Bachert (The 2012 election is coming. Seems we have MORE TRASH TO REMOVE!)
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To: Graneros

Yes the msm has been busy interviewing the thugs trying to find some social problem for their criminal actions. The thugs said they will make money from all the FREE stuff they stole. I especially thought the 16 year old stealing “nappies” for his Son was a nice touch /S

The msm will NEVER admit that the Socialist template is doomed to failure where ever it is tried.


47 posted on 08/13/2011 4:34:19 PM PDT by Marty62 (Marty60)
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To: reaganaut1

He’s right!!

The black cultures throughout the world — including here — have a much higher tolerance for violent and sociopathic behavior than others. It — and not racism — explains the disproportionate numbers of black folks in our prisons.

The sad fact is that much of that black violence is against OTHER blacks!!


48 posted on 08/13/2011 4:34:25 PM PDT by Dick Bachert (The 2012 election is coming. Seems we have MORE TRASH TO REMOVE!)
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To: reaganaut1

Perhaps, to a point; but the English hooligans (see: soccer riots) needn’t have any coaching for this sort of behavior.


49 posted on 08/13/2011 4:38:08 PM PDT by Pharmboy (What always made the state a hell has been that man tried to make it heaven-Hoelderlin)
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To: Dick Bachert
The black cultures throughout the world — including here — have a much higher tolerance for violent and sociopathic behavior than others. It — and not racism — explains the disproportionate numbers of black folks in our prisons.

As Richard Pryor found out:

“It made my heart ache, you know, to see all these beautiful black men in the joint...the warriors should be out there helping the masses. I felt that way, I was real naïve. Six weeks I was up there and I talked to the brothers. I talked to ‘em, and …Thank God we got penitentiaries!”

50 posted on 08/13/2011 4:40:38 PM PDT by dfwgator
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