Report: Pakistan Gave China Access To 'Stealth' Chopper In bin Laden Raid
Article, then # 4 and # 7.
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Posted on 08/14/2011 2:23:57 PM PDT by Steelfish
Report: Pakistan Gave China Access To 'Stealth' Chopper In bin Laden Raid Chinese military allowed to take photographs, samples of aircraft's 'skin', despite CIA objections, Financial Times reports
ISLAMABAD — Pakistan gave China access to the previously unknown "stealth" helicopter that crashed during the commando raid that killed Osama bin Laden in May despite explicit requests from the CIA not to, the Financial Times reported on Sunday.
The revelation, if confirmed, is likely to further shake the U.S.-Pakistan relationship, which has been improving slightly after hitting its lowest point in decades following the May 2 bin Laden raid.
During the raid, one of two modified Blackhawk helicopters, believed to employ unknown stealth capability, malfunctioned and crashed, forcing the commandos to abandon it.
"The US now has information that Pakistan, particularly the ISI, gave access to the Chinese military to the downed helicopter in Abbottabad," the paper quoted a person "in intelligence circles" as saying.
Pakistan, which enjoys a close relationship with China, allowed Chinese intelligence officials to take pictures of the crashed chopper as well as take samples of its special "skin" that allowed the American raid to evade Pakistani radar, the newspaper reported.
No one from the Pakistani army was available for comment, but the Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate (ISI), Pakistan's top spy agency, denied the report. The paper said Pakistan's top general, chief of army staff Ashfaq Kayani, denied that China had been given access.
(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...
When they make the movie..this scene will be left on the cutting room floor..
But the billions in American taxpayer dollars will continue flowing Pakistan’s way. Yeah yeah, I know — the relationship is “complicated.”
This is the last straw! Nuke them!
“China Access To ‘Stealth’ Chopper In bin Laden Raid”
They told the Pakis they paid for it, why not?
In the three months since that raid, our bone-head policy of “free trade” has provided the PRC with 100 BILLION DOLLARS in bilateral trade inbalance, with which to build their military even more.
Wake up people.
The sad fact of the matter is that the rest of world no longer fears the US- We have a President who bows and genuflects to tin-pot dictators and now the birds are coming home to roost.
The latest is Syria’s Assad who has told the state department and Ms. Clinton the equivalent of up-yours by sending in tanks despite repeated warning against doing so.
Report: Pakistan Gave China Access To 'Stealth' Chopper In bin Laden Raid
Article, then # 4 and # 7.
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I’ve heard that the real reason we “accidentally” bombed the Chinese embassy in Serbia was that the remains of the downed stealth fighter had been taken there. Does anyone else know anything about this?
“No one from the Pakistani army was available for comment, but the Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate (ISI), Pakistan’s top spy agency, denied the report. The paper said Pakistan’s top general, chief of army staff Ashfaq Kayani, denied that China had been given access.”
The same ISI that denied knowledge of Bin Laden’s whereabouts for the last 5+ years.
MANY OF US STATED THAT THE MOMENT THE PICTURES WERE RELEASED... POKEESTON IS LIKE OBAMA... AN ENEMY OF AMERICA!
LLS
Unexpected! /s
Pakistan and Afghanistan have always shown they cannot be trusted for the double dealing stab in the back politics.
The only reason I can figure why we put up with them is because we need to get the supplies and fuel we need to fight the Afghan war through their territory.
Remember when they complained about us attacking and killing terrorists in their country /before the Bin Laden raid)? Then they held the fuel trucks up at the border and many of them were blown up. The Pakis said the terrorists did it but I wouldn’t put it past them to have their own military do it.
I heard that part (chopper parts were there), but also heard the PRC made their Embassy available as an Ops Center either for the Serbian secret police or similar unit.
Since the Embassy is legally China, that would mean some of the most robust Serb ops were being done from China.
I have nothing against Serbia, now or then.
The JDAM that hit the Embassy was GPS-guided —it’s IMPOSSIBLE that the bomb was not intended for that target.
No surprise - they are neighbors after all...
Everyone/everything is up for sale all the time 365-24/7.
The highest bidder always wins. Why we are still there is a mystery to me.
Do you really think our guys left the chopper and its sophisticated equipment intact? The vehicle may have crash landed, but our guys probably destroyed the chopper so that it was unrecognizable.
Do you remember when our plane was forced to land in China early in W’s first term? As the plane was in a nosedive, the crew used sledge hammers and other implements to destroy as much equipment as possible. Me thinks Seal Team 6 did the same once they could safely enter the downed chopper.
IIRC, at the time the US excuse was that the building had previously had other uses and somehow the word that it was now an embassy had not gotten to the right people.
There were rumors of this months ago. I’m glad the press is catching up. /s
and we will still give them money...
We need a COMPLICATED relationship with the fed gov so they can start sending all of us BILLIONS! No, wait, they only TAKE money from us....
Respectfully, you are terribly wrong. That’s why the US has the largest arsenal of nuclear weapons. That’s why the Soviet Empire collapsed. That’s why during the Cuban Missile Crisis, Soviet leader Kruschev backed off. That’s why the Chinese dare not invade Taiwan. The list is endless. And of course that’s why when Reagan assumed the Presidency, the mullah’s relented and released US hostages.
xxxReport: Pakistan Gave China Access To ‘Stealth’ Chopper In bin Laden Raidxxx
let’s make some sense here: given their accomplishments in the j-20 which the outside world still find [a mind boggling mystery], what possibly can the chicoms learn from the samples that they may not already know and/or are maybe even far in advance of everyone else? ever thought of that way, guys? i mean stolen technology? c’mon! let’s use a bit of our neurons here. i mean [the seal in the technology transfer door] is so tight not even a draft can get through it.
You could also claim that America "feared" the Soviets. That's why you didn't dare intervene in Hungary and Czechoslovakia. You haven't intervened in North Korea today because you "fear" China. You didn't intervene in Georgia in 2008 because you "feared" Russia.
The Soviet Union collapsed because they persisted in promoting an unsustainable economic model, not because they feared the US. The Chinese are smart enough not to make that mistake and they are patient enough to wait you out on Taiwan. (They are quietly forging deep commercial ties with Taiwan and in thirty years, Taiwan will become part of China all but in name).
The World has come a long way from the days of naked fear of Genghis Khan - like dictators and Stalin. The US cannot play that game and you know it. You had 150,000 soldiers in Iraq at one point, yet the Iraqi Government fears you less than they fear the Iranians and respects you even less. In fact, you look quite silly in Iraq - losing 5,000 soldiers yet losing key contracts to the Chinese and the Iraqi Government cannot wait to kick you out.
In March, 2008 (during the Bush presidency), Mahmoud Ahmedinejad spent 2 days in Iraq after boldly announcing before hand that he was coming. Contrast that to all senior American officials who had (and still have to) sneak in and out of Iraq.
The Chinese have seen how hard it was for you to subdue a nation of 24 million (weakened by a decade of sanctions) and they know that there is no way America can subdue China using conventional weapons. That leaves nuclear weapons, but the Chinese also have them.
I will rather die than fear America and many people on this planet feel that way. I respect America, but if you guys want to play the fear game, forget it. It will be your downfall.
As for Cuban missile crisis and Taiwan, those were sort of like chess moves between super powers who weren't actually looking for an all out nuclear war. The US feared the Chinese and Russians as much as they did the US.
We need to change that. I want the rest of the world to wet their pants when they think of us.
All very true. Fact is US has far more to lose then any country in the world. That fact alone makes US more fearful of other countries regardless of how many nukes US possess.
You seem to forget that we folded on the IRBM sites in Turkey at the same time. There was no victory over the Cuban missile crisis.
I love America, I respect America.
But let me repeat this for emphasis, I will rather die than fear America.
I don't have much of a problem with that. Actually, I have no problem with it at all.
Well, many people all over the World feel that way.
Take a look at your closest allies - the Israelis, the Brits and the Australians. None of these people fear America and they have never feared America. They respect America and they love and identify with American values.
I know some Americans love “tough talking”, but in your more sober moments kindly consider what the appeal of America has been since the end of the Cold War.
Do not assume like Chairman Mao that “power flows out from the barrel of a gun”. Do not also assume that your power comes from your great wealth (especially at a time when even Brazil holds more than $200 billion of US debt).
America’s strength (if you didn’t know it), is moral. If you plan to discard the fine tradition of moral strength started by your founding fathers and strut around the World like a second-rate Genghis Khan - you will regret it.
But it does. George Washington was more eloquent on the subject when he said "Government is not eloquence. It is not reason. Government is force." All government is a monopoly on the use of force, that's all.
strut around the World like a second-rate Genghis Khan - you will regret it.
I never said I wanted to conquer the world. I simply want it to fear us. I don't give a crap what you do in your 3rd world rat holes. I really don't. I don't care if you come, stay, lay or pray.
But I want the world to know that if you f*** with America your cities go up in balls of nuclear fire. Period.
Nations like to join the nuclear club precisely because the thought of nuclear retaliation serves as a deterrent. But it’s not just the nuclear strength alone but land, naval, and airpower as well. Of course there are guerilla wars (Vietnam and Afghanistan) but at the end of the day enemy calculates the strength of the oopposition. This has been the history of warfare. Tyrants understand only one language-force. If the US is not feared as a superpower then we are reduced to saber-rattling at best. Perhaps, as an enhanced Papua New-Guinea.
If you think Iran is not calculating possible strikes by Israel and the US, if you don’t think that China is likewise worried about US intervention should it try to take on Taiwan, or that North Korea is restrained from invading the south, then it is point of view that is completely at odds with the reality on the ground.
The Soviet Union collapsed because they could not keep up with the US Defense build-up and attempts to rein in the “Star Wars” program by treaty failed at that now famous summit between Reagan and Gorbachev in Iceland.
The slogan, “You Don’t Mess with The US of A” meant something. We saw how the Taliban government was routed in under 7 days, how Saddam was driven out of Kuwait, and the spectacular offense in “Shock and Awe” when Saddam drove out US weapons inspectors and laughed at UN Security Council Resolutions.
Unfortunately, today under a supine President and a toothless foreign policy as executed by Clinton, third world nations and petty tyrants think they can get away with it. We saw what the British did in the Falklands when Argentina tried to captures a forlorn island that belonged to the British, a lesson well learned by the Argentinians. And a former Panamanian dictator who sought to challenge US supremacy in Latin America now sits in a US jail.
America fails under weak presidents who do not flex US military muscle as we saw under Carter, Clinton, and now Obama. The motto “Peace Through Strenghth” is as good today as when the Republic was first born.
xxx You seem to forget that we folded on the IRBM sites in Turkey at the same time. There was no victory over the Cuban missile crisis. xxx
i think the more correct term for it is known as [a quit pro quo] though we have a tendency of glorying, dramatizing, and portraying everything that favors our interest as a brave, honorable, and gallant feat and/or victory.
metaphorically, it was only moment left before both hands of the doomsday clock strikes midnight before robert recommended to booby the turkey trade off. if otherwise, all those nuclear attack drill we took in primary school when kids would have become a very real scenario.
in any case, all big boy’s, they don’t back off. their faces are dependent on it. with the big boy’s, it’s like staring into the blank, empty, and impossible to read faces of the very last mans stand in a texas holdem tournament in vegas.
not truthfully well informed enough? do some research.
It is a futile attempt. You cannot make a person fearful who refuses to be afraid. Just wont happen.
xxx But I want the world to know that if you f*** with America your cities go up in balls of nuclear fire. Period. xxx
He he (:)! I like that. I think Americans are damn sexy, the fair ones that is. Their only competition and they do have competitions is the Korean Air ad girls and, of course, sise by side with them are the Zhang Ziyi’s of these east... But, when it comes Sharon Stoneies of our world, why not (:) if leisurely (:)? But don’t let my Zhang Ziyi know I said that however other wise she’s go and seek out a Vivo of her own over this red head here (:).
This is hardly news, the Pakis always share with their benefactor, the Chicoms — after all the Paki nukes come with instructions in Chinese, as do the “Paki designed” missiles....
The US has been respected by its friends and feared by its enemies
The US DID interfere in Afghanistan and the USSR tried to do so in Cuba.
The wars were in places far away from the main centres that could ignite nuclear war
Now, over Taiwan, China does not want to risk its economic growth for an island that is for all purposes its biggest investor and which shares the same world domination aims as the mainland Chinese do.
An Irani president walking into a next-door country has more heft than a US dignitary due to the sheer fact that much of Iraq is Shia and Iran has its squads that could take out any threat -- these could even be locals.
The US has a strong sense of isolationism -- hence the late entry to WWI and the abandoning of the League of Nations
Think of the preceding superpower -- Britain. If any small, non-European defied them, they sent in a gun-ship.
If the US acted uppity in the early 1800s, the British burned down Washington DC (as they did in 1812), if Zanzibar defied them, they bombarded it for 45 minutes until they surrendered
For Western European nations, this was too close to home, so the English played diplomatic tricks, dividing one against the other, chessboards
The English were feared and placated as they played their cards thinking of their country first.
The US is like a modern-day Athens, but with more "morals" in the sense that it has always debated if it is right to go and attack someone, even if that is in the US' interest
Imagine if the USA became utterly isolationist after WWII and shut itself up in North America. Then the USSR would carte-blanche walk over much of the world and it would have been incredibly cruel -- if you want to know cruel, meet someone from the Ukraine or Moldavia, I have
in the USSR, Stalin shifted nations from one place to another, the soviets destroyed ancient works of art and architecture, they destroyed peoples etc.
The US has not been "feared" in that way by its friends or even by the ambiguous (India in the late 60s and 70s comes to mind) but feared by its enemies -- the USSR never dared to directly challenge the USA after the Cuban missile crisis and China plays it's Sun-Tzu games carefully.
For a long time people have wished for the USA to decline. Now that that IS what is happening, we see the powerplay coming to effect
I see China as biding its time as the US declines -- no war against the US, but a carve-up of various parts -- South-East Asia and Africa comes to mind (unfortunately AC, I don't see a strong native African coalition as being able to oppose the Chinese colonisation).
India may be able to oppose the rise of the chicoms, but it still hasn't got its act together -- either internally or externally. It has made strides internally economically and militarily, but it has a long way to go AND is hampered by the cancer that is Pakistan. Externally, the Indians are silently creating a necklace of alliances from Japan to S. Korea to Singapore to Australia to the Philippines to oppose China, but this still has a way to go.
Europe as a whole is declining economically and will not be so relevant in the future
South America I see as being dominated by Brazil and some kind of Spanish coalition of Chile-Colombia-Argentina with the other mixed states as being by the wayside.
if a RINO or even a moderate Republican is elected, that will only slow the decline, but the decline will continue
If Palin is elected, the decline will halt, but there needs to be continuous effort for a decade or more and during that period of time Brazil, China, India, Indonesia, Turkey, Chile, Mexico, Nigeria, Kenya, Tanzania etc. will grow (the Russian market I dismiss as it seems just an oil state to me) -- and in the case of China and India, they will grow at 7 to 10% --> think of it, if Palin is elected 2012-2020, the decline will slow in the middle of that period, but growth will be slow, near 0, while these two giants grow at break-neck speed during those 8 years
No, the time for utter US domination is over.
What we need to do is have a strong coalition of friends -- hard to do after Obambi has been busy snubbing the British, Indians etc.
Even if the US could dominate the World militarily and economically in the past, it can no longer do so now. The outcome of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars contribute massively to this lack of fear. (Military planners throughout the World now understand that the US is best contained asymmetrically and that the US “usually does not get the politics behind the War”).
About the British Empire and gunboats. The British Empire was ultimately a failure because it was based on a wrong set of ideas (racial superiority, colonies serving the metropole). It collapsed like a pack of cards, exhausted after the Second World War.
Maybe the US was the only major power to realise the folly of colonial enterprise. My view is different, the US spent so much energy during the 19th Century trying to come to terms with it’s Continent-sized land mass that it barely had enough time and resources to devote to a European-style empire. There were colonial excursions (e.g. The Philippines, parts of Latin America), but unlike Britain and France the US could afford not “keep up with the neighbours” with an extensive colonial empire.
The US “feared” the USSR just as much as the USSR “feared” the US. A threat by the Soviets to intervene militarily in the war between Egypt and Israel was enough to get Kissinger on the phone with the Israelis. There are so many examples, like the trailing of the USS Enterprise by a Soviet Nuclear Sub during the India - Pakistan war or the reluctance of the US to escalate the conflict in North Vietnam for fear of drawing in the Chinese into the war. The Korean War is a classic example.
correct.
the colonial enterprise is not and has not been a "folly"
The British Empire was ultimately a failure because it was based on a wrong set of ideas (racial superiority, colonies serving the metropole). It collapsed like a pack of cards, exhausted after the Second World War.
You forget the main result of the British Empire was to make England rich. It got captive markets and captive suppliers and got richer and richer. From a poor, small state of 4 million in 1600, it became the industrial powerhouse with massive monopolies by 1900. This was not a failure
Well, that is history.
Rome steadily declined over hundreds of years, the British Empire collapsed shortly after Gandhi led thousands to the sea to make salt.
For a nation that controlled one-sixth of the World’s surface area as recently as 1936 to be a smaller economy than Germany or Japan must mean something - and its not catastrophic success.
Remember I used the qualifier “ultimately”, not “while it lasted”.
In contrast, the age of America is an age based on mutual respect, trade and equality. It is an “Empire of the Mind”, not an Empire based on jackboots, gunboats and preferential tariffs for cotton manufacturers in Manchester.
Remember I used the qualifier “ultimately”, not “while it lasted”.
In contrast, the age of America is an age based on mutual respect, trade and equality. It is an “Empire of the Mind”, not an Empire based on jackboots, gunboats and preferential tariffs for textile mills in Manchester.
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