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I don't know, so I'm an atheist libertarian
CNN Opinion ^ | 8/16/11 | Penn Jillette

Posted on 08/18/2011 6:40:21 AM PDT by Haiku Guy

I try to claim that I was friends with the genius Richard Feynman...

(snip)

Last week I was interviewed for Piers Morgan's show (which used to be Larry King's show). Piers beat me up a bit for being an atheist (that's his job) and then beat me up a bit for being a libertarian (also his job). He did this by asking me impossible questions, questions that none of us, Harold, Richard, me, (or Piers), could ever answer.

He started with "How did you get here?" and I started talking about my road to showbiz and atheism and he interrupted and said he meant how the universe was created. I said, "I don't know."

(snip)

It's amazing to me how many people think that voting to have the government give poor people money is compassion. Helping poor and suffering people is compassion. Voting for our government to use guns to give money to help poor and suffering people is immoral self-righteous bullying laziness.

(snip)

(Excerpt) Read more at articles.cnn.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Philosophy; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: jillette; penn
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Penn Jillette is an interesting guy. Don't always agree with him, but he is an interesting guy.

I think he's right on the money about government, here.

About matters of faith, I think he kind of misses the point. But that's OK. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

1 posted on 08/18/2011 6:40:29 AM PDT by Haiku Guy
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To: Haiku Guy

Penn, that’s why it’s called ‘faith’...........................


2 posted on 08/18/2011 6:43:58 AM PDT by Red Badger ("Treason doth never prosper.... What's the reason? Why if it prosper, none dare call it treason.")
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To: Haiku Guy
I agree with you.

His show with Teller, “Bullshit” is worth watching.

3 posted on 08/18/2011 6:46:07 AM PDT by starlifter (Pullum sapit)
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To: Haiku Guy

If Gillette was a socialist the athiest issue would have never come up, Piers would have just commended Gillette for his great intelligence. I’ll take an athiest libertarian over a believing socialist any day, and I say that as a devout Christian.


4 posted on 08/18/2011 6:47:18 AM PDT by HerrBlucher ("It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged." G.K. Chesterton)
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To: Haiku Guy

If he didn’t think he knew he’d be an agnostic, not an atheist.


5 posted on 08/18/2011 6:48:11 AM PDT by Mount Athos (A Giant luxury mega-mansion for Gore, a Government Green EcoShack made of poo for you)
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To: Haiku Guy

A worthy read.

I’ll let the anti-liberty Paul Derangement Syndrome sufferers here explain where Penn goes wrong in his analysis of government.


6 posted on 08/18/2011 6:48:38 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Government borrowing is Taxation without Representation)
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To: HerrBlucher

Penn strikes me as somebody you can talk to about matters of faith. I would not give up on him. (Of course, I would try not to give up on anybody...)


7 posted on 08/18/2011 6:50:06 AM PDT by Haiku Guy (If you have a right / To the service I provide / I must be a slave)
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To: Haiku Guy
I don't believe the majority always knows what's best for everyone. The fact that the majority thinks they have a way to get something good does not give them the right to use force on the minority that don't want to pay for it. If you have to use a gun, I don't believe you really know jack. Democracy without respect for individual rights sucks. It's just ganging up against the weird kid, and I'm always the weird kid.

Excellent Penn

to quote Franklin:

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

8 posted on 08/18/2011 6:52:43 AM PDT by Vaquero ("an armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: Red Badger
Penn, that’s why it’s called ‘faith’...........................

which is his constitutional right, NOT to have...

9 posted on 08/18/2011 6:54:18 AM PDT by Vaquero ("an armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: Haiku Guy

“Penn Jillette is an interesting guy. Don’t always agree with him, but he is an interesting guy.”

I agree. I have read a couple of his articles here and there and I’ve gathered he’s a full on libertarian. The great thing about that is, he doesn’t want to inflict his views and morals upon me.

I’m not an evangelical. I don’t feel compelled to save Penn Jillette, (and he’s thankful for that I’m sure). I can live with his choice of atheism. But, in the final accounting, will he?


10 posted on 08/18/2011 6:55:22 AM PDT by brownsfan (I miss the America I grew up in.)
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To: Vaquero

Taxation is not Charity.

They should print that on the money.


11 posted on 08/18/2011 6:55:28 AM PDT by Haiku Guy (If you have a right / To the service I provide / I must be a slave)
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To: Mount Athos

If I understand his reasoning here, he says in saying you’re an agnostic you’re saying you don’t know if God exists. Therefore, you do not believe in God which makes you an atheist.


12 posted on 08/18/2011 7:00:18 AM PDT by hometoroost (Frodo lives!)
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To: Haiku Guy

Bill Maher, maybe? :)


13 posted on 08/18/2011 7:02:53 AM PDT by Sudetenland (There can be no freedom without God--What man gives, man can take away.)
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To: Beelzebubba

there is a huge difference between a libertarian and a Libertarian....

just because a ‘party’ takes a name and decides upon a platform, does not necessarily follow that the name they take describes said party.....

for instance look at the Democratic party...boy, if there was ever a party with a contradictory name.


14 posted on 08/18/2011 7:02:54 AM PDT by Vaquero ("an armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: HerrBlucher

I agree with that opinion!


15 posted on 08/18/2011 7:14:19 AM PDT by MNDude (so that's what they meant by Carter's second term)
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To: Haiku Guy

I guess I’d have to tell Penn the way I really, finally KNEW that the Bible is right, there is an afterlife and Jesus is Lord and Saviour.

I simply read up on what happened to the Apostles. Their deaths. All but one were killed in horrible ways and could have stopped it, saved their own lives by denouncing Jesus and admitting it was all a fraud. Now, you torture me and I WILL tell you where my wife hides the egg money. I’ll tell you anything to make it stop.

Not those men. They wouldn’t denounce Jesus. They wouldn’t say that His ministry was a fraud. Even knowing that they were going to be tortured to death, they would not turn their backs on Christ.

Now as a former cop, I see that kind of dedication, that loyalty and it says to me that these men believe Him and they WALKED with him. The technology did not exist at the time to fake all that stuff. Jesus is real, Jesus is the Son of God and He is coming back.

That’s how I came to my faith. More of an investigatory way, rather than an emotional way. I wonder if anyone has ever tried that tack with Mr. Gillette.


16 posted on 08/18/2011 7:15:29 AM PDT by Grunthor (In order; Bachmann, Cain, Palin, Santorum, Perry, None of the rest matter 'til the general)
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To: Haiku Guy
About matters of faith, I think he kind of misses the point. But that's OK.

Right on.

17 posted on 08/18/2011 7:16:46 AM PDT by Hemingway's Ghost (Spirit of '75)
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To: Beelzebubba

He nor Wrong Paul are wrong in their analysis of government spending. Penn is wrong on God. Paul is wrong on almost everything else.


18 posted on 08/18/2011 7:17:41 AM PDT by Grunthor (In order; Bachmann, Cain, Palin, Santorum, Perry, None of the rest matter 'til the general)
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To: Vaquero
which is his constitutional right, NOT to have...

Oh, God, not this again.
19 posted on 08/18/2011 7:20:08 AM PDT by righttackle44 (I may not be much, but I raised a U.S. Marine.)
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To: Haiku Guy

I’m a Disciple of Christ, but I love Penn Jillette. He is more honest than most of the people in my congregation.


20 posted on 08/18/2011 7:23:55 AM PDT by jimfree (In 2012 Sarah Palin will have more quality executive experience than Barack Obama.)
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To: Grunthor

during wars men walk into whitering fire because they felt the need to protect their ‘Brothers’ or ‘Defend their Country’...here in America they are given the Congressional Medal of Honor.

it is called Uncommon Valor.

I do not think I have Uncommon Valor....but I have never been tested in that way and I am happy that I have not been so tested...

so what does Uncommon Valor have in proving your point about FAITH. I for one do not see it.


21 posted on 08/18/2011 7:26:45 AM PDT by Vaquero ("an armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: righttackle44
Oh, God, not this again.

Not what again...the Constitution?
what is wrong with the Constitution?

22 posted on 08/18/2011 7:29:35 AM PDT by Vaquero ("an armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: Haiku Guy

I would like to go head to head with Piers Morgan...
Silly unanswerable questions would promote a question to him from me..

I’ve watched him do this over and over.. to guests...
The boy ain’t very smart.. maybe its the writers..
BUT he wouldn’t ask Me ridiculous questions and get away with it..

I can ask snarky questions myself..
Guests should treat him like a nosy neighbor..
There are many things that are none of his business..


23 posted on 08/18/2011 7:31:13 AM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole...)
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To: Vaquero

When searching for “new” distant planets rotating around stars, scientists admit that they cannot see the planets themselves due to the enormous amount of light generated by the stars. What they can see is the gravitational effect on the star of planets rotating around it. That is how scientist know that there are planets out there, without even seeing them. They look for the effect on what they CAN see.

We have the written Word of God, but that requires more faith than I had as a non-believer for me to hit my knees and beg forgiveness from some super being.

I needed more. I looked to an old Catholic (I am not one) source to find out the “effect” of Jesus upon His disciples, after He was gone.

That effect was the same as the gravitational effect of the planets on their stars. You can’t see them but the evidence (the effect) is right there in front of you.

You can say these men were liars but would you allow yourself to be tortured to death for something that you KNEW was a lie? Not when you could stop it at any time just by saying what your antagonists want you to say.

Why would they not do that? I contend it was because they KNEW it was true. Jesus is the Son of God, the intercessor between us and His Father. They knew that if they denied Christ before men, He would deny them before God.

They chose wisely.


24 posted on 08/18/2011 7:40:36 AM PDT by Grunthor (In order; Bachmann, Cain, Palin, Santorum, Perry, None of the rest matter 'til the general)
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To: jimfree

“I’m a Disciple of Christ, but I love Penn Jillette.”

As a Disciple of Christ you can do nothing else.

;0)


25 posted on 08/18/2011 7:42:04 AM PDT by Grunthor (In order; Bachmann, Cain, Palin, Santorum, Perry, None of the rest matter 'til the general)
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To: Vaquero
"Democracy without respect for individual rights sucks"

Democracy with respect for individual rights is called a "REPUBLIC" Mr Penn Jillette.

26 posted on 08/18/2011 7:55:24 AM PDT by Falcon4.0
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To: hosepipe

THat was the one false note in Penn Jillette’s article. He used the stupid questions of Piers Morgan as a surrogate for a reasoned argument.

One should never confuse anything Piers Morgan says with a reasoned argument.


27 posted on 08/18/2011 8:00:44 AM PDT by Haiku Guy (If you have a right / To the service I provide / I must be a slave)
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To: Haiku Guy

I think he is interesting too and best of all very non-PC. I saw him on Red Eye last night and he took exception to Rick Perry calling man made Global Warming a theory. He then went on to say he doesn’t know if it is happening or not and doesn’t think anyone else does either. He needs to find one of those dictionary thingies and look up the word ‘theory.’


28 posted on 08/18/2011 8:03:21 AM PDT by TigersEye (Life is about choices. Your choices. Make good ones.)
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To: HerrBlucher
If Gillette was a socialist the athiest issue would have never come up, Piers would have just commended Gillette for his great intelligence.

He talked about that last night on Redeye also. Said he used to commiserate with other well known atheists (I forget their names) about the death threats they all get. But after a while he noticed that the threats all came from a very small number of the same kooks over and over again. He also noticed that he got a lot of mail from Christians and they were "very nice people." So he quit complaining about the kooks and no longer thinks they represent Christians.

That's a good thing about Gillette, he doesn't think he knows it all and he checks and re-checks his premises.

29 posted on 08/18/2011 8:23:53 AM PDT by TigersEye (Life is about choices. Your choices. Make good ones.)
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To: HerrBlucher
I’ll take an athiest libertarian over a believing socialist any day, and I say that as a devout Christian.

I wish more Freepers felt that way. I'm an atheist conservative and I'll take Christian conservatives over atheist liberals any day too.

30 posted on 08/18/2011 8:24:59 AM PDT by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
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To: Haiku Guy

true... that... the boy is a legend in his own mind..


31 posted on 08/18/2011 8:28:27 AM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole...)
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To: Grunthor

That’s the similar way that I came to faith.


32 posted on 08/18/2011 8:33:42 AM PDT by Amerikan_Samurai
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To: Amerikan_Samurai

The Hymnal 1982 (Episcopal)
Hymn 661

They cast their nets in Galilee
just off the hills of brown;
such happy, simple fisherfolk,
before the Lord came down.

Contented, peaceful fishermen,
before they ever knew
the peace of God that filled their hearts
brimful, and broke them too.

Young John who trimmed the flapping sail,
homeless in Patmos died,
Peter, who hauled the teeming net,
head-down was crucified.

The peace of God, it is no peace,
but strife closed in the sod,
Yet let us pray for but one thing —
the marvelous peace of God.

Words: William Alexander Percy (1885-1942),
Music: Georgetown, David McKinley Williams (1887-1978)


33 posted on 08/18/2011 8:58:23 AM PDT by Haiku Guy (If you have a right / To the service I provide / I must be a slave)
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To: TigersEye
So he quit complaining about the kooks and no longer thinks they represent Christians.

There are atheist kooks, but they don't represent all atheists.

I wish I could do more to convince Freepers of that.

34 posted on 08/18/2011 9:07:46 AM PDT by Notary Sojac (Nothing will cure the economy but debt deleveraging, deregulation, and time.)
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To: Notary Sojac
It's not worth worrying about. Most American Buddhists are leftists. At least it seems so even to me. But, much like Penn Gillette, I realized some time ago that only a small number of kooks on FR have a problem with Buddhists.

I also came to a point where I don't care what anyone thinks about it. It doesn't make sense to. Being a Buddhist isn't about making people like me or making them understand Buddhism. Trying to accomplish that doesn't do anything for them and it doesn't do anything for me. All of my desires in that direction were solely ego-self building which is exactly what Buddhism is trying to eliminate from my mind.

That's my view of it FWIW! :-)

35 posted on 08/18/2011 9:22:57 AM PDT by TigersEye (Life is about choices. Your choices. Make good ones.)
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To: Mount Athos

...that’s me, an agnostic libertarian...


36 posted on 08/18/2011 9:48:26 AM PDT by gargoyle (...This looks like a good fight, deal me in...)
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To: Notary Sojac

If you don’t mind me saying so, I think where some FReepers might have trouble with Atheism is because the foundational documents of the United States state that we are endowed by our Creator with the rights to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Absent a Creator, these rights can only be granted by other men. What can be granted by other men can also be taken by other men. So the existance of a Creator is, at minimum, a necessary fiction in order for Natural Rights to exist.


37 posted on 08/18/2011 10:51:23 AM PDT by Haiku Guy (If you have a right / To the service I provide / I must be a slave)
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To: Grunthor
I spent 10 years learning religion in Catholic parochial schools....(1-10)

...upon graduation from 8th grade (no middle schools or jr hs...k-8 and 9-12 in HS) I received the Cardinals Award(dioceses of NYC) for my school for the highest grade on the final religion test....

somewhere in HS I lost it...that was 45 years ago.... ...good luck to you....I envy you...I am still looking and do not see what you obviously see...and do not expect I ever will.

38 posted on 08/18/2011 11:16:07 AM PDT by Vaquero ("an armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: Haiku Guy
When you are face to face with someone who supports small government, low taxes, free markets, traditional marriage, home schooling, national defense, and respects your right to express your faith, but who also says "by the way, I am an atheist" do you recognize in him an ally, or an enemy?

I've often expressed here and on other fora my belief that the Judeo-Christian tradition has been an enabler of human liberty, and those countries which are so based have on balance done far better by human freedom than those which are not.

Yet....I personally don't believe. I can no more relate to the possibility of a universe in which supernatural beings exist than I can a universe in which 2+3 does not equal 3+2.

And because I don't believe, there are some on FR who see me as their enemy, and the enemy of America. Very much so.

39 posted on 08/18/2011 11:59:05 AM PDT by Notary Sojac (Nothing will cure the economy but debt deleveraging, deregulation, and time.)
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To: Notary Sojac

I do not see you as my enemy. Not at all.

It would be interesting to discuss the origin of Natural Rights with you, but in a friendly and informative way. You come to the same positions that I have by a different path, which I find interesting.


40 posted on 08/18/2011 12:15:24 PM PDT by Haiku Guy (If you have a right / To the service I provide / I must be a slave)
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To: Notary Sojac

I htink you could argue that at least some of the Founders could well have had a similar position to yours, that Judeo-Christian values were a valuable pre-condition to Liberty, without being rock-ribbed believers themselves.


41 posted on 08/18/2011 12:18:09 PM PDT by Haiku Guy (If you have a right / To the service I provide / I must be a slave)
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To: Haiku Guy
without being rock-ribbed believers themselves.

Exactly. That the authors of the Declaration and the Constitution were almost all believing Christians is indisputable.

Yet I think they were Christians deeply infused by the Enlightenment. They might not recognize those coming out of the early 20th century fundamentalist movement as "Christians" in quite the same way that they themselves were.

42 posted on 08/18/2011 12:41:41 PM PDT by Notary Sojac (Nothing will cure the economy but debt deleveraging, deregulation, and time.)
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To: Mount Athos

PennPoint rant on agnostic vs atheist if anyone actually cares to hear it:

http://revision3.com/pennpoint/agnosticssuck


43 posted on 08/18/2011 2:59:12 PM PDT by RatSlayer
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To: RatSlayer

I listened to it, but it seemed like really dishonest argumentation.

Penn says that Atheism is simply a lack of belief, not a strong belief that believing is wrong or false or that there is nothing to believe in.

Which is absurd since he himself as an example of an atheist disproves this on its face. And this is true with the atheists I have encountered.

There is a very real and strong difference between atheists and agnostics, and his video just provides more evidence.


44 posted on 08/18/2011 5:02:42 PM PDT by Mount Athos (A Giant luxury mega-mansion for Gore, a Government Green EcoShack made of poo for you)
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To: Haiku Guy

Atheist libertarians have one and only one value - materialism. If it feels good, do it; they are amoral.

He’s lying about being moved to help the poor on his own.
More than likely, he looks at the poor as sub-human things that are worthless and should die because the earth is overpopulated.

I hung out with this mob for a while when I was younger as I was weary of the Rino/socialist “choice” and I discovered the atheist leaders of libertarians are spiritual whether they know it or not. In their decision to outright reject God (it is not a passive decision), they are wide open to the opposite spirit of Him. It’s actually spooky. And they have a lot of power in the business world which explains the major problems we see in the lack of ethics there.


45 posted on 08/18/2011 6:29:16 PM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: Vaquero

Just do yourself a favor if you are truly seeking, and read this; http://www.shrinesf.org/apostles.htm and remember it wasn’t just their deaths, but the sacrifice of family for the travel that they undertook to carry out the Great Commission.

You don’t do that for a lie.


46 posted on 08/18/2011 6:59:13 PM PDT by Grunthor (In order; Bachmann, Cain, Palin, Santorum, Perry, None of the rest matter 'til the general)
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To: Grunthor

and remember it wasn’t just their deaths, but the sacrifice of family for the travel that they undertook to carry out the Great Commission.

You don’t do that for a lie.

If you truly believe...if you have ultimate faith you will die for just about anything...whether you are right or wrong....for that person it is not a lie.

47 posted on 08/19/2011 4:54:29 AM PDT by Vaquero ("an armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: Vaquero

If you truly believe...if you have ultimate faith you will die for just about anything...whether you are right or wrong....for that person it is not a lie.
- —————————————————————————————

They spent everyday for three years with Jesus. Some scholars believe that a couple of them might have known him all their lives.

Now, you watch a man die and three days later his grave is disturbed and the body gone after he TOLD you that he was going to rise in three days, then he shows up at your dinner table within the week? That to me is when the apostles finally “got it.”

Doubting Thomas is my favorite of the apostle stories in the weeks following the resurrection. He demanded to see the Lord before he’d believe. To actually put his finger in the wounds on His hands and his arm in Jesus’ (spear wound) side.

Once he did these things, he fell at Jesus feet proclaiming “My Lord and my God.”

Doubting Thomas knew Jesus for years. Knew of His wounds. Certified by checking his wounds that yes indeed this was the risen Christ. And he believed. If it’s was good enough for Thomas, surely it’s good enough for us?


48 posted on 08/19/2011 7:47:58 AM PDT by Grunthor (In order; Cain, Palin, Perry, None of the rest matter 'til the general)
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To: SaraJohnson

As soon as you tell anyone else of your efforts to help the poor, your motivations are suspect. “Let not your left hand know what your right hand is doing” is the rule.


49 posted on 08/19/2011 8:04:12 AM PDT by Haiku Guy (If you have a right / To the service I provide / I must be a slave)
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To: Grunthor
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic
AC Clarke

just because sandal wearing goat herders and fishermen were surprised by their discoveries does not make their discoveries accurate.

50 posted on 08/19/2011 8:09:51 AM PDT by Vaquero ("an armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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