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Egypt decides to withdraw ambassador from Israel
Associated Press ^ | August 19, 2011

Posted on 08/19/2011 8:35:36 PM PDT by Free ThinkerNY

CAIRO (AP) -- The Egyptian Cabinet says it has decided to withdraw its ambassador from Israel over the deaths of Egyptian security forces in fighting after an ambush targeting Israelis near the border between the two countries.

The Cabinet statement issued early Saturday says the ambassador will be withdrawn until Israel investigates the shooting deaths of five Egyptian security forces.

(Excerpt) Read more at ...

TOPICS: Israel; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: ayers; codered; dnc4alqaeda; dncantisemitism; dohrn; egypt; israel; obama4ikhwan; obamaintifada; obamamedling
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1 posted on 08/19/2011 8:35:39 PM PDT by Free ThinkerNY
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To: Free ThinkerNY
I think our president should be unavailable, as is he is on vacation right now, leave a message, if you fit his daily lego you might just get a response.
2 posted on 08/19/2011 8:39:54 PM PDT by allmost
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To: allmost
Ever notice, he'll do the talking when it's good news? (Osama, economy gets better for a short time, etc).

When it's bad news others do the talking for him (defense cuts, GITMO stays open, economy dives some more, monetary easing “printing money” etc).

3 posted on 08/19/2011 8:46:40 PM PDT by Red6
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Comment #4 Removed by Moderator

To: allmost

Only when it’s perceived as beneficial will he speak. If it’s a negative story but it shows “leadership” and it doesn’t really hurt him, he’ll come out and lead from the front, i.e. beer summit.

5 posted on 08/19/2011 8:48:37 PM PDT by Red6
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To: Free ThinkerNY

Obama’s foreign policy is bearing fruit.

6 posted on 08/19/2011 8:49:25 PM PDT by oldbrowser (They're socialists don't call them liberals)
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To: Free ThinkerNY

Ruh roh.
Here it comes.

7 posted on 08/19/2011 8:50:19 PM PDT by mylife (OPINIONS ~ $ 1.00 HALFBAKED ~ 50c)
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To: F15Eagle


8 posted on 08/19/2011 8:55:43 PM PDT by doc1019 (You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.)
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To: F15Eagle
They will defeat Israel, and they know they will. Even Israel knows she's in trouble.

Lebanon last time wasn't a victory for Israel and in case you haven't noticed, Israel is in a pickle when it comes to demographics. The Arab Israeli population is exploding and the population in the occupied territories as well. The West (Europe and North America) are not standing behind Israel like they once did. The power base (political, economic, social) of nations like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Turkey (a moderate but profiteer) are growing by leaps and bounds while Israel is running flat. Let's talk about this again in 20 years.

You forgot this war:

9 posted on 08/19/2011 8:57:42 PM PDT by Red6
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To: F15Eagle

again, i hope and pray you are right.

but in 73 it was close,
and the resupply that made the difference,
ain’t coming under Zero.

Obama could even decide to do a “no fly zone”
like in Libya, to protect the new state,
that the U.N. might create next month.

i don’t put anything past him to do...

10 posted on 08/19/2011 9:02:21 PM PDT by Elendur (It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Red6

I believe many notice.

11 posted on 08/19/2011 9:03:18 PM PDT by allmost
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To: Elendur; All

Check out this thread and especially #16, it’s right in line with your post.

Nite all!

12 posted on 08/19/2011 9:13:39 PM PDT by Las Vegas Ron (Rush Limbaugh = the Beethoven of talk radio)
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To: Free ThinkerNY

So Egyptian jihadists try to kill Israelis, Israelis defend themselves, and Egypt cuts ties why? Because the Joooos didn’t just let themselves be slaughtered?!

The world is upside down...

13 posted on 08/19/2011 9:23:28 PM PDT by piytar (The Obama Depression. Say it early, say it often. Why? Because it's TRUE.)
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To: piytar
The world is upside down...

On the contrary, this is SOP.

14 posted on 08/19/2011 9:32:20 PM PDT by dr_lew
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To: dr_lew

If the arabs attack again, it is not going to end well for anyone...the word from behind the burning bush this time is going to be take your iodine pills.

15 posted on 08/20/2011 3:51:08 AM PDT by Mouton (Voting is an opiate of the electorate. Nothing changes no matter who wins..)
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To: Red6

No, they will not defeat Israel, but they will come close, and at the last moment..............

16 posted on 08/20/2011 4:01:52 AM PDT by Kent1957
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To: F15Eagle
They keep forgetting ... they keep thinking they can defeat Israel

You only showed 20th century dates - Israel's endurance goes MUCH farther back than the last 75 years or so and it will continue to endure until He decides the time is right.

17 posted on 08/20/2011 4:21:16 AM PDT by trebb ("If a man will not work, he should not eat" From 2 Thes 3)
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To: Las Vegas Ron

“The Obama White House issued new measures on Friday to prevent genocides and mass atrocities, creating an “Atrocities Prevention Board” in the wake of the failure of the “Never Again” vow taken following the German Holocaust to stop the murders of entire populations.”

Perfect! Obama will use the Holocaust as a reason to prevent Israel from using its nukes to defend itself. These people are PURE EVIL!!!

18 posted on 08/20/2011 4:47:05 AM PDT by Gadsden1st
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To: AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; ColdOne; Convert from ECUSA; ...

Thanks Free ThinkerNY.

19 posted on 08/20/2011 5:48:15 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Yes, as a matter of fact, it is that time again --
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To: piytar

Under terms of the peace agreement between Israel and Egypt the Sinai was to be demilitarized. Egyptian police were to control the Rafa crossing into Gaza. Elsewhere, the United States paid Egypt $2 billion annually and Israel slightly more to keep the peace.

The USA also paid for a Multinational Force and Observers (MFO) to patrol the Sinai and see that it was demilitarized. Two battalions of foreign troops were placed at a base south of El Arish, and an American batallion was stationed near Sharm al-Sheikh. This was to ensure the Sinai remained neutral and pacific. It appears this has failed. What the Egyptian police who were killed were doing that far south along the border is questionable.

Frankly, after a quarter-century it is time to end the annual payments to Egypt — where we have set up armaments shops for production of weaponry including tanks. Payments to Israel should be made in military hardware as long as Egypt cannot ensure the peace in Sinai.

The State Department should justify ASAP the future payments for an MFO, and in support of Egypt and Israel.

20 posted on 08/20/2011 7:09:54 AM PDT by Melchior
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To: Gadsden1st
Indeed, it looks like they're putting some final touches on Samantha Powers (Cass Sunstein’s wife) “Responsibility to Protect” doctrine.

One thing that really bothers me is the 40+ tzars that obama has working behind the scenes.

What are they up to?

This revelation of “Atrocities Prevention Board” caught some attention but what else has slipped under the radar.

I don't trust these commies as far as I can throw them, I wish more attention was given to this aspect of the administration.

Do a Google search on her, some pretty interesting things pop up.

21 posted on 08/20/2011 8:02:54 AM PDT by Las Vegas Ron (Rush Limbaugh = the Beethoven of talk radio)
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To: Free ThinkerNY

President Obama is such a lightweight pantywaist that no matter what he says will have much impact on the Middle East dis functionalism?

22 posted on 08/20/2011 9:43:32 AM PDT by zbogwan2
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To: Free ThinkerNY

Either Egypt polices the Sinai, or Israel will have to take over the area around Eilat. If that means war, it means war.

23 posted on 08/20/2011 10:48:14 AM PDT by Eleutheria5 (End the occupation. Annex today.)
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To: Free ThinkerNY; Eleutheria5; SunkenCiv; jerusalemjudy; tedbel; holdonnow; American in Israel; ...
The recent terrorist attacks by Islamists on Israel would probably have not occurred had there been no change in government in Egypt this year. The "Arab spring" has obviously emboldened terrorist groups around the Arab world. The current Egyptian government is less than zealous in suppressing terrorist groups operating in the Sinai.

The withdrawal of the Egyptian ambassador to Israel probably signals the end of the Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty, a treaty that one could foresee would crumble as soon as the planned line of succession of Egyptian political leadership was breached. It's in practicality a treaty between Israel and the line of Sadat-Mubarak, not a treaty between Israel and Egypt.

24 posted on 08/20/2011 11:34:04 AM PDT by justiceseeker93
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To: Las Vegas Ron

great link, thank you very much!

and i worry a lot about Egypt. as soon as the Muslim Brotherhood finish consolidating Egypt
(thanks to OBAMA)
they have one THOUSAND M1A1 Abrams...

It was close in 1973. If all the surrounding countries invade, with the American made equipment,
Israel probably can’t survive without going nuclear,
and maybe not even then...

25 posted on 08/20/2011 6:27:31 PM PDT by Elendur (It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. - Thomas Jefferson)
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Comment #26 Removed by Moderator

Comment #27 Removed by Moderator

Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: Jet Jaguar; NorwegianViking; ExTexasRedhead; HollyB; FromLori; EricTheRed_VocalMinority; ...

The list, ping

Let me know if you would like to be on or off the ping list

29 posted on 08/20/2011 9:12:21 PM PDT by Nachum (The complete Obama list at
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Comment #30 Removed by Moderator

To: F15Eagle
Yes they are back to stay - the Bible says so - but much trouble is coming - it will be staggering

Even worse than staggering - Armageddon...the only question is when the real pain begins as things develop toward His promise.

31 posted on 08/21/2011 2:35:02 AM PDT by trebb ("If a man will not work, he should not eat" From 2 Thes 3)
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To: Yehuda
1. The game they play is a matter of definitions. By defining where/who's counted they can create their nice little counter argument.

2. We're talking about long term trends, not a three year bubble 2007 - 2010.

The Muslims are out breeding you, 2.1% growth in occupied territories (Gaza/West bank combined). In Israel overall you have a 1.8% growth rate but even there a large portion is Arab, not Jewish and the projection is that OVERALL the population will shift over the next 20 years to a more Arab one. The power base of the people surrounding Israel is “increasing” while Israel is flat lining: Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt in all aspects (economic, political, social, militarily). In fact, in the Middle East at large the booming centers of growth today are NOT Israel but places with names like Qatar, Dubai, etc. While these nations pose no immanent threat to Israel, their governments and populations do see Israel and the Jewish population in a negative way and their political, economic and military might is increasing both regionally and on the world stage. The influence of Israel on the other hand and the political will/need to support them is waining in the West.

Netanyahu is right and the problem is even worse than most recognize or wish to accept. You have to look at this long term and at a macro level, not slicing it up with definitions and geographically so you get some "feel good" answer.

There are trustworthy sources:”

32 posted on 08/21/2011 7:20:08 AM PDT by Red6
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To: Yehuda
The problem with such a slow death as Israel faces is that it's largely self inflicted and often goes unnoticed or even ignored if noticed. People don't want to deal with it and have the option of ignoring or kicking the can down the road.... From year to year the demographics shifts ever so slightly and people hardly even perceive the gradual loss of cultural and ethnic identity because as this gradual change occurs the changes get absorbed into ones own new perception of “normal.”

“Sorry, not true.” lol- Tell that to Haifa University doing the research on demographics.

33 posted on 08/21/2011 3:42:31 PM PDT by Red6
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To: Yehuda
Alright, let's break this down for you and I will only use your singular point of measure, “growth of GDP:”

Israel, GDP growth 4.6%, Qatar 18.6%, UAE 6.3%, Saudi Arabia 4.0%, Egypt 4.7%, Syria 5.0%, Bahrain 4.5%, Lebanon 5.0%...

Get this into your head, It's not 1968 anymore. Israel is surrounded by economies larger than her own, growing faster than hers, nations like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE... Some of these nations are technologically radiply advancing, populations are larger than Israel's and out growing her even on her own turf. Take a look at Youtube and what's happening, every Muslim today has Internet too. Because of the growth in wealth and globalization of economies, these people travel, as do their idea's and values. Take a look at Lebanon today, not only are they rebounding economically, but they demographically shifted to be a Muslim nation probably in the early 60s (Some experts- pro Islam state this happened in the 30s that's really just a way to rationalize the cause of the war and blame it on those evil “Christians” that weren't giving Muslims enough say). The strategic significance of nations like Saudi Arabia have multiplied in the eyes of the West that today are more dependent more than ever on their oil, and they like Iran know how to leverage this. The Muslim world is growing in influence by leaps and bounds may that be culturally, economically or even in defense. The post WWII and Holocaust guilt is gone. Just look at the media in the West! In the 50 and even liberal 60s and 70s vehemently pro Israel, today have a pro Palestinian, Arab or Muslim slant in many cases. Hell, what use to be a media championing Israel, today is run by the likes of Fareed Zakaria (Newsweek 2000 - 2010)

Let's look at some indicators:

Could you have imagined Germany selling Saudi Arabia 270 of her most advanced tanks and making anti Israeli statements during a war like the one in 2006 back in 1981?

Was Iran one of Germany's largest trading partners in 1981?

Was it even conceivable that Iran would be a nuclear power in 1981?

The idea that the UAE fly’s a more modern F-16 than the US, would that have been conceivable in 1981?

That a large numbers of publications are owned, have chief editors or are in other ways heavily influenced by Muslims as is the case in Great Britain, imaginable in 1981?

Do you think that in 1981 one would have thought Israel would LOOSE in a conflict fought in Lebanon in a proxy war against Iran?

In 1981, would a US President have said this? “We believe the borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps, so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states.” (Obama, May 2011.)

Could anyone have imagined that members of despot regimes would sit on committees in the UN and scold Israel, recommend action be taken against Israel for her actions in Gaza, in 1981?

The Idea of a Palestinian state recognized by most of the world and only Europe and North America holding out (and they will fall, believe me, Europe wants to go ahead and it's really only the US that's left holding out) in 1981 would have been laughed at. Nations that today recognize a state of Palestine:

Tell me, do you seriously not see a gradual shift in power?
37 posted on 08/21/2011 6:17:42 PM PDT by Red6
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To: Yehuda
Israel is in a long term pickle and I think the policy makers, intel community, IDF and those people that work in the realm of national security at a “strategic” level know this. Policy makers in the West even know this.

Why do you think in reality even in the West you see this readjusting of policy and rhetoric towards Israel happening slowly but surely?

Hint- Demographics even in the West, trade/money, strategic resources (in this case oil).

2.5 million Muslims living in US, Germany 5.4% or 4.3 million ( )

France 8.7 - 9% and rapidly growing ( )

Netherlands 5% ( )... You don't think that starts to influence the policies and foreign affairs of a nation? Especially when this group of people is organized around their religion? Who to the Germans is more important, Iran with their oil and trade in goods or Israel?

German exports to Iran ~ $6.2 billion.
German exports to Israel ~ $2.3 billion.

BTW, who has oil and guess where a lot is going? What do you think that does to the power base of a nation like Iran when dealing with the Germans?

In 20 years things will look very ugly for Israel. There are ups and downs along the way, but the trend is towards a shift in power to the Muslim/Arabic side in ALL aspects. Save this post and prove me wrong.

38 posted on 08/21/2011 6:45:42 PM PDT by Red6
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Comment #39 Removed by Moderator

To: Yehuda
Running out of arguments? Logic can't stand up anymore? Feel bad about the trend and developments? Resort to ad hominem attacks and deny reality. You know, in WWII the German radio was still screaming, “We're winning the war!” (Wir gewinnen den Krieg) in 1945 as US tanks sat in Cologne and the Russians was knocking on the doors of Berlin.

I've been to Israel and I like Israel unlike nearly the entire rest of the Middle East that is an ignorant, filthy, backward cesspool. But that doesn't change the fact that they are in serious long term trouble. The Germans will sell to anyone, including Saddams Iraq, today's Mullah's in Iran... and that's the problem. Calling people names because they spell out a bad trend doesn't help your cause, buddy. Iran today is strategically more important to the Germans than Israel, bottom line.

Here are the trends and they have been going on for a long time now:

1. The political influence of many Arab and Muslim nations has increased because of the resources (oil) but also trade (buying of goods and services) with Western nations.

2. The population of Jewish Israeli's is not holding pace with the growth of Arab Israeli's and those in the occupied territories. The population of Israeli’s isn't holding pace with that of surrounding Muslim nations. While the Jewish population in most Western nations holds constant or is even in decline, the Muslim population is growing: US, Great Britain, Germany, India, Canada, France...

3. The rise in Muslim population even in Western nations creates an inner pressure on policy makers. These people largely vote on certain issues as a homogeneous block, the threat of inner stability influences decision making as well as does the ability to “contribute” to political campaigns. One of the last major strongholds of Israel's interests is their lobbying (formal and informal) ability in the US which greatly affects US foreign policy.

4. The WII/Holocaust guilt of past is used up. The new generations don't care. Their is a growing secularization in Western nations (Westerners are loosing their religion), their cultural bond to Israel and the Jews specifically is in decline from a religious perspective.

5. Technologically many Arab nations have modernized, as have their armed forces. They have professionalized their armed forces that have also largely doctrinally advanced.

6. Globalization, through trade, the Internet, international media Al Arabia, Al Jazzier... The Arab/Muslim perspective in the West has become the “predominant” one with Al Jazzier on most European cable networks, pro-Arab/Mulsim papers sold on news stands etc.

There doesn't need to be another major war between Israel and her enemies at this point. Economics, demographics, the media and the political process will do what seven wars over 60 years were incapable of accomplishing. Israel's death will be a silent walk into darkness and it is the fact that this shift in power and it's causes are largely unperceived that exacerbate the problem. If you were truly supportive of Israel, don't attack me for pointing this out, ask yourself what you should do. But in the meantime you always have the option of cherry-picking those indicators that feel good to you and be like a cancer patient that is in denial. Got it- the Israeli government and Haifa university are lying but the local paper that through the game of definitions obviously creates a self fulfilling argument is believable, regards demographics. lol

40 posted on 08/22/2011 7:13:17 AM PDT by Red6
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To: Yehuda

Not on the map is yet ANOTHER Mosques being built near where I live in North Texas that I'm not thrilled about, but it's a reality and I can deny it, I can pretend it means nothing and minimize it... that is what you're engaging in.

You need to learn to seperate what you would like it to be and what is, who conveys a message and who's the culprit...

Do you think that a growing community with lots of money and voters influences things? You bet,

41 posted on 08/22/2011 8:59:20 AM PDT by Red6
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Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

To: Yehuda
“The thread is about Egypt and Israel today, not about some fantasy you have of Israel eventually losing a final battle. “ A fantasy that Netanyahu fears as well.

OK, since now you wish to get back to Egypt after your Israel GDP growth argument went up in smoke:

Egypt is actually a good example of what I'm talking about. Irrespective of the uprising (That's nearly superfluous although it grabs the media) they today are politically far more important to us. The driving forces behind their vast gain in political influence are: oil (~12,000 barrels to the US come from there daily), ~ 6.8 billion dollars in exports to Egypt in 2010 (Nothing compared to Israel which is about three times that, but what is the trend. It's already enough to where the US considers well the consequences). Growing numbers of US citizens that are expats or have through other means a tie back to Egypt. In 1990 there were about 76,000 Egyptians in the US, by 2000 that rose to 142,000 and today it will surely be far more. Now imagine the entire Muslim population in the US is about 2.5+ million. At the same time, Egypt's population has gone from 20 million when Israel was founded to 82 million today and will reach 114 million before it likely levels off. They are more plugged in than ever before and when the uprising started, the Internet was flooded with blogs and other communications about it. The number of US persons going to Egypt for pleasure or business has increased nearly ten fold since the end of Egypt's alignment with the Soviets in the Cold War. In 2008 alone, 319,000 tourists from the US visited Egypt. That's still behind Israel by 200,000, but what does that tell you? ( We sell arms to Egypt, to include weapon systems like Patriot, F16, etc. Even in the US, there are many for whom the lines of who is friend and foe are fuzzy. Their economy of course at this moment is ground to a halt, but overall their entire economic volume amounts to more than twice that of Israel.

I understand that in your simplistic world, their uprising this second appears to be weakness, but long term and at the macro when we look at the West and it's dealings with the Middle East, the Middle East at large, Israel and her occupied territories, the trend is one of a massive power shift to the Arab/Muslim side and as stated before, demographics, economics, strategic resources (oil), the political process and the media are the cause of this power shift.

43 posted on 08/22/2011 12:30:44 PM PDT by Red6
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Comment #44 Removed by Moderator

To: Yehuda
“If you were truly supportive of Israel, don’t attack me for pointing this out, ask yourself what you should do.”

Go ahead, tell us what we should do. (and what you’re doing about the mosque in your backyard.”

Well, that's a difficult question, isn't it?

***On a personal level:

I vote based on my political/moral views
I don't give bad guys my money
I try to inform people
I breed
I make preparations for the long run to preserve myself and family
I ensure my offspring has a solid moral compass that reflects my values (offspring brainwashed by the enemy doesn't count)

I also make perpetration's for when things get ugly, because it's an inevitability. The multicultural society does not exist. It doesn't exist in France, Israel, Germany or anywhere else where we talk about cultures with conflicting views of the world. It never has. Like socialism, it's a Utopian idea that only works in an academic setting. Islam as a whole is incompatible with Western liberal democracy (in the traditional meaning of the world liberal). May it be our legal code, Constitution, the idea of equality of man, none of this truly jives in Islamic society. Embracing diversity amounts to no more than self deprecation and empowering those that have mutually exclusive value systems to gain influence in ones own society. At present, because of their relatively low numbers they do not feel empowered nor do they heavily influence society through the policial process, but as their numbers grow this changes. Realize, the use of demographics to shift power is nothing new to this culture as absurd as this sounds to us, that's what they did in Sudan, a religious civil-war that is characterized as anything else besides what it really is in secular Western society that doesn't want to see this. North America and Europe are like a horse with blinders on this issue. Arab and other Muslim countries pour money and fighters into Sudan which is split in half (North Muslim, South Christian). Of course it wasn't always that way, because years past like Lebanon it was predominately Christian. Hmmmm, Lebanon, I wonder what happened there? In Sudan you have conversion at swords edge, subjugation of non-Muslims in Muslim controlled area's and all we hear about is some Hollywood actress adopting another African baby. Ask the Coptic Christains or Jews living in Egypt (That exists BTW) or Iraq (I've been there too) what life in a Muslim nation as a non-Muslim is like. The multicultural society that the secular Westerner strives for will only work for as long as their inclusive and egalitarian ideology is the predominant one of the land.

Reality is, the issue is beyond me, the state I live in or even the government in D.C. Not even the US can slow this down even if she cared and tried. Like a run away locomotive, globalization is largely the driving force behind this power shift and not even at a national level would we really be able to stop the trend now. So one does what one can within the defined limits of society to change things to a more positive way or slow the progression down while one makes preparations for the worst case scenario.

Any true solutions to this issue would first require society to become conscious of what is going on, and we don't have that. You have Americans arguing and putting each other down because of the teaching or lack thereof of evolution, in the meantime seven (7) Islamic schools instruct kids in North Texas.

***On a national level, if I were in charge:

Enforce English language standards (We think in words)

Restrict immigration by regions (control it better)

Toughen up citizenship requirements to where we get less pure economic tourists that have no true interest in the US but simply want a job for as long as the sun shines

Reduce energy dependencies from unstable regions and nations that don't like us

Push for national identity/American exceptionalism to be reinforced in education. Stop the "America is bad" crap in public education.

Allow religion (Judea Christian) to seep into public education and discourse (value system)

Push for social expectations and norms that strive for assymilation vs. diversity. For example, in France there is no headscarf.

45 posted on 08/22/2011 1:45:07 PM PDT by Red6
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To: F15Eagle




They keep forgetting ... they keep thinking they can defeat Israel

Tanks for the memories...

46 posted on 08/22/2011 1:51:54 PM PDT by EternalVigilance (In the long run spritzing perfume on the rotting elephant really won't make that much difference.)
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To: EternalVigilance

Netanyahu is thinking, “Don’t make us come over there and kick your ass.....again!”

47 posted on 08/22/2011 1:54:45 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: dfwgator

They don’t generally screw around.

48 posted on 08/22/2011 1:55:50 PM PDT by EternalVigilance (In the long run spritzing perfume on the rotting elephant really won't make that much difference.)
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To: Yehuda
On a national level, if the US were to try to get control of what is going on, it would ultimately require two or three things that can be done in many different ways:

Assimilation pressures
Immigration controls
Reduce “dependencies” on these regions/nations

How we push assimilation, how we control immigration can vary, but ultimately those are the tools with which you'll get this under control in the long term.

49 posted on 08/22/2011 2:01:40 PM PDT by Red6
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