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Birth Control, Contraception Donít Stop Abortion, Help Women
Life News ^ | 8/19/11 | Kristan Hawkins

Posted on 08/20/2011 1:53:21 PM PDT by wagglebee

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To: kaila

“If I listened to the Pope, I would have 17 children like a relative of mine did.”

And you feel this is advantageous to you?


151 posted on 08/20/2011 7:58:02 PM PDT by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman!)
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To: surroundedbyblue

No, this is a very old idea that’s not supported any longer.

The American Association of Pro-Life Obstetricians and Gynecologists have reviewed this worry:

http://www.aaplog.org/position-and-papers/oral-contraceptive-controversy/hormone-contraceptives-controversies-and-clarifications/

The uterine lining is affected much more by the hormones produced by the corpus luteum after ovulation. (probably influenced by what ever caused the breakthrough ovulation)

There is an increased risk of ectopic pregnancies if using the “mini pill.”


152 posted on 08/20/2011 7:59:44 PM PDT by hocndoc (http://WingRight.org)(I've got a mustard seed and I'm not afraid to use it.)(RIAing))
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To: strider44

perhaps we should sterilize them and reduce the excess population?


153 posted on 08/20/2011 8:01:11 PM PDT by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman!)
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To: kaila

“I have been married for 25 years. I am not going to say no to sex.”

Where have I said that you should ever say no to sex with your husband?

“I do not want to get pregnant, so I have decided that BCP is the correct choice for me.”

If you feel your husband has a right to your body by your marriage, does he also not have a say in whether or not to have children? What is his opinion on the matter?

“There is no bad consequences to having sex if you are in a committed relationship, and use BCP.”

Unfortunately, that is not the case. There are a variety of negative consequences to the long term use of the birth control pill.

“Of course, zealots would like us to stay home and make babies.”

What do you believe is the purpose of marriage? We did not make you get married, you made that decision yourself.

Why do you not wish to have children with your husband? I am curious as to why. If you did not wish to have children, you did not have to marry. If you did not wish to love your husband, you would not have married him, nor would you be staying with him.

So you clearly love your husband. Why do you not wish to have a child with him?


154 posted on 08/20/2011 8:08:43 PM PDT by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman!)
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To: 1forall
The use of the pill is not the root cause of promiscuity. Much like guns are not the root cause of violent crimes. Sexual promiscuity predates the pill by millenia. It has, at its core, the human condition of lack of self-regulation. Self-control, or more precise, the lack of self-control reveals itself in myriad forms. Sexual promiscuity is only one form.

Hear, hear! I completely agree, the issue is self control. Like any medication or human invention, contraceptives of any sort can be misused. Or they can be lifesaving (a woman with severe congenital heart disease, who is at high risk of death from pregnancy.)

155 posted on 08/20/2011 8:10:13 PM PDT by sometime lurker
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To: BenKenobi

That is the difference between you and me.
I do not want to get pregnant, and I can control that. It is not up to you to have a say in the matter.Especially if you are a man.
How about you push to make this a campaign issue?
Outlaw contraceptives. See how far that would get you.
We would suffer for another 4 years of Obama as a result.This is a very, very fringe attitude.
You may have met 60 or so YOUNG women ( what, age 14? Wait until they are 18 )who oppose BCP. But let me tell you, they are in the minority of women out there.


156 posted on 08/20/2011 8:11:26 PM PDT by kaila
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To: hocndoc

“However, contraception and/or childlessness whether due to infertility, abstinence or responsible contraception (including natural family planning) do not equal abortion or a lack of respect for human dignity.”

Let me ask you something. When you put a bike together, do you believe that it is important to follow the instructions listed, or would you prefer to simply figure things out on your own and do the best you can?

Do you believe that there is a moral jusitification for choosing one approach over the other?


157 posted on 08/20/2011 8:13:28 PM PDT by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman!)
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To: sometime lurker; 1forall
Or they can be lifesaving (a woman with severe congenital heart disease, who is at high risk of death from pregnancy.)

Birth control pills are not suitable for all women; you should not use the pill if you have heart disease, severe hypertension, or liver tumors. Birth control pill warnings and precautions also apply to women with a history of blood clots, stroke, or heart attack.

158 posted on 08/20/2011 8:21:33 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: hocndoc

Not everyone agrees.......

http://www.aaplog.org/position-and-papers/oral-contraceptive-controversy/birth-control-pill-abortifacient-and-contraceptive/


159 posted on 08/20/2011 8:21:48 PM PDT by surroundedbyblue (Live the message of Fatima - pray & do penance!)
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To: kaila

“I do not want to get pregnant”

I understand this. I am curious as to why.

“I can control that.”

Of course, but it’s not through contraception that you have control. That is my point. You can always choose to say no. You can choose not to get married, but you chose to get married. That was a decision that you made, that no one else did for you.

“It is not up to you to have a say in the matter.”

Did I say that it was my decision to make? No. I am simply curious as to why you have made the decisions that you have chosen.

“Especially if you are a man.”

Do you believe that your husband has a say as to whether you do or do not use contraception?

“How about you push to make this a campaign issue?”

Did you mean that I should make it a campaign issue as to whether you are using contraception?

Or whether contraception as a whole should be permitted? I agree that contraception should be permitted. I have no issue with it being legal. I do, however, have an issue with it’s use in that I believe it is harmful to those who engage in contraception, and harmful to society as a whole.

“Outlaw contraceptives. See how far that would get you.”

I am not sure how the discussion as to why you choose to use contraception has any bearing on the discussion as to whether or not contraception ought to be legal.

“You may have met 60 or so YOUNG women ( what, age 14? Wait until they are 18 )who oppose BCP. But let me tell you, they are in the minority of women out there.”

I am not Vladimir. My mother was a volunteer for planned parenthood. I am simply curious as to why you choose not to get pregnant and why you choose to use contraception despite a long and happy marriage. That is all.

What is the benefit that you derive from it?


160 posted on 08/20/2011 8:23:57 PM PDT by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman!)
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To: BenKenobi

I love my husband, and we both came to the decision not to have children.
Marriage can be a commitment between two people, without children.
It is my choice about the long term consequences ( which is very, very, minimal for a low percentage of people), it is also my body. I do not believe in the nanny state determining what is “good” for me.


161 posted on 08/20/2011 8:25:47 PM PDT by kaila
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To: kaila

“I love my husband, and we both came to the decision not to have children.”

Before or after you chose to get married?

“Marriage can be a commitment between two people, without children.”

So you support gay marriage then?

“It is my choice about the long term consequences”

Did I say it was otherwise? It is always your choice to do as you wish in this life. It does not mean that the choices that you make are beneficial to you.

Do you believe that it has been advantageous to you not to have the life of your sister with 17 children?


162 posted on 08/20/2011 8:33:39 PM PDT by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman!)
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To: DJ MacWoW
Family is the basic foundation of any nation. Make women dissatisfied with it and you undermine the underpinnings of a moral country. How is that not plain?

Would you not agree that identifying the root cause of a problem is the most effective way of eradicating the problem? I posit that birth control is not the root cause of the division of the family. Neither is Marxism. Much like guns are not the root cause of violent crimes. Destruction of the family to conquer a society predates 20th century thought. By a large margin.

Indulge me for a brief moment. I suggest the lack of self-control on the individual level, and subsequently on the corporate level, is either the root cause, or very close to it, of our current downward spiral as a nation.

Take your man and wife example. If one or the other lacks self-control, will they not begin to experience dissatisfaction in their marriage? Indulging the self becomes a primary focus rather than contributing to the marriage. Much like the gun in the hands of a self-indulgent person becomes a tool to satisfy a selfish and criminal urge, so too the pill becomes not just useful for regulation but for self-indulgence. And the condom becomes more than useful for effective family planning and enters the realm of satisfying self-indulgent self-gratifying urges in destructive extra-marital relationships.

Marxism takes advantage of this fact of human condition. If we, as Americans, would not succumb to self-indulgence, be it sexually, materially, gluttonously(?), financially, emotionally etc, Marxism would never survive, regardless of how many twinkies, condoms, pills, bottles of whiskey, fast cars or loose women were brought to bear.

163 posted on 08/20/2011 8:35:38 PM PDT by 1forall (America - my home, my land, my country.)
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To: 1forall
I posit that birth control is not the root cause of the division of the family. Neither is Marxism.

Moral decay is a tool used by the left.

America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within. - Joseph Stalin

"Socialism is precisely the religion that must overwhelm Christianity. … In the new order, Socialism will triumph by first capturing the culture via infiltration of schools, universities, churches and the media by transforming the consciousness of society." Antonio Gramsci - Marxist - teacher of Saul Alinsky

You're watching it in action.

Goodnight.

164 posted on 08/20/2011 8:40:31 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: wagglebee

Birth control and contraception put the conception of a child in jeopardy — thus not God’s will that is done, but rather the cople’s will or the woman’s will.

Not God’s will — and they will surely answer for it some day.


165 posted on 08/20/2011 8:43:26 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: luckystarmom

That’s what Natural Family Planning is for. Birth control kills a baby.


166 posted on 08/20/2011 8:46:14 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: luckystarmom

That’s what Natural Family Planning is for. Birth control kills a baby.


167 posted on 08/20/2011 8:46:30 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: DJ MacWoW

Hub and I just watched “Grinding America Down”. Really excellent. I have a couple of things I don’t totally see eye to eye with but they are minor (nuke power is one). Excellent. I highly recommend it for everyone. Home schooling families should show it to their older kids who can understand it.


168 posted on 08/20/2011 9:06:21 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: surroundedbyblue

and yet, many do
http://www.prolifephysicians.org/abortifacient.htm


169 posted on 08/20/2011 9:09:07 PM PDT by hocndoc (http://WingRight.org)(I've got a mustard seed and I'm not afraid to use it.)(RIAing))
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To: little jeremiah

Suddenly all the dots connect, don’t they.


170 posted on 08/20/2011 9:11:35 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: Salvation

It is not birth control or any sort of contraception that puts the child in jeopardy. It is the decision - or even the question - that some humans are not human enough to have the right not to be killed.

If a couple abstains during the most fertile part of their cycle, they are exercising their will.

The Lord made us with a will, with the ability to plan, and the ability to ask and discern His will for us. It’s better not to judge your brothers and sisters in Christ over a non-salvation matter.


171 posted on 08/20/2011 9:16:52 PM PDT by hocndoc (http://WingRight.org)(I've got a mustard seed and I'm not afraid to use it.)(RIAing))
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To: BenKenobi

If there’s no right or wrong, why would we argue?
http://wingright.org/2011/07/27/why-ethics-lifeethics-org/


172 posted on 08/20/2011 9:19:05 PM PDT by hocndoc (http://WingRight.org)(I've got a mustard seed and I'm not afraid to use it.)(RIAing))
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To: BenKenobi

We came to the decision to have children before marriage. It is unfair to the other person if you have a different opinion regarding children after marriage.
Gay marriage hs nothing to do with this-in which I do not support.
Do you think that people should be celibate, and not get married if they do not want children?
When you talk about choices that I made, do you think that having children is a beneficial choice?
Who are you to say what is good for me?
Are you Obama in disguise? He always likes to say what is good for us, and we should eat our peas.
I never was into raising children, the childbirth process, the diaper stage, the adolescent stage. Never something I wanted to do.
I wanted to travel, go out when I wanted to, pursue athletic endeavors.
I did not want to sit at home raising children.
I certainly did not want to invest years into a child, only to find out that I did not like my child as a person.
I have seen this happen many times with my friends.
If I want to interact with children, I have plenty of nieces and nephews. They go home at night.
I never said that the person with 17 children was my sister, but her life sucked because she believed what the Pope told her to do.


173 posted on 08/20/2011 9:26:56 PM PDT by kaila
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To: hocndoc

We Catholics have reflected on what we called the contraceptive mentality and its effects on a society. Those effects are, we believed, profoundly pessimistic. The society that ceases to treasure the future is doomed to die. Gibbons condemned the spread of monasticism in the late Roman empire, because it did not treasure civilization. But the monks.paradoxically, became the great missionaries not only of Christianity but of Roman civilization. I don’t see that German has a mission, except to enjoy and draw out their lives as long as possible,so long as it is in comfort.


174 posted on 08/20/2011 9:27:29 PM PDT by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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To: kaila

I meant “ We came to the decision NOT to have children....


175 posted on 08/20/2011 9:28:02 PM PDT by kaila
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To: DJ MacWoW
"Contraceptive" covers many types of birth control, not just a pill. Obviously the physician takes the patient's medical history into account before suggesting a particular type. Even if we narrow it down to a hormonal contraceptive, there is also the question as to which type of heart disease and which hormonal preparation.
176 posted on 08/20/2011 9:28:35 PM PDT by sometime lurker
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To: strider44
modern science is a good thing.

Modern science is good only when bounded by morality. Modern science has come up with some pretty horrific destructive things, too.

177 posted on 08/20/2011 9:32:23 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: surroundedbyblue

The abortion movement, the gay rights movement, the embrace of sexual promiscuity by the culture would not be possible without contraceptive mentality paving the way.

Once the procreative and unitive aspects of sex are fully and delberatly separated ther is no reason to restrict sex to within the marriage of one man and one woman.


178 posted on 08/20/2011 9:32:56 PM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: kaila; BenKenobi
do you think that having children is a beneficial choice?

People grow when they live for more than just self.

Goodnight.

179 posted on 08/20/2011 9:33:14 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: trumandogz
Birth Control Pills directly cause abortions

Ignorant Talibani, and just like them you cannot be bombed into the stone age because you are there already.

180 posted on 08/20/2011 9:55:40 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: sometime lurker
No, I didn't go through the links because they appeared to be links to postings, not direct to articles

The links wagglebee posted were to articles posted on FR. They were not to individual comments by people on FR. As you know, due to lawsuits and copyright issues FR can rarely post entire articles. So, if you click the links wagglebee posted on comment 62, you will find entire articles with one additional click.

Is that too difficult for you?

Scientific evidence is scientific evidence. Are you claiming all the scientific journals that have published studies are involved in a conspiracy?

Are you saying that political correctness i.e. the abortion industry and feminism have no influence on scientific research, or what various journals and outlets publicize or bury?

181 posted on 08/20/2011 9:57:20 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: DJ MacWoW; Tax-chick

I knew a lot of that stuff but some was new. They put everything together very clearly. Tax-chick’s tagline is true.

People need to watch that. It won’t change the minds of the brain dead leftists, but it will help people who aren’t completely entrhalled by evil.


182 posted on 08/20/2011 9:58:56 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: DJ MacWoW

Oh, so you think I am selfish?
Really?
I paid $8000 in property taxes last year so your children ( or someone elses) could attend school ( not mine).
My federal taxes have gone into SSD for disabled children ( not mine), low cost student loans ( not mine).
My state sales tax ( which I pay a lot of because I am upper income)- -a part of which goes to upper education to educate your children ( not mine)
I can only claim a standard deduction, unlike you who can claim your children ( not mine).
In the future,your children will revolt , and not pay Social Security, after all the money I have paid into the system.
At least, not having children has saved me hundreds of thousands of dollars for my retirement, as I will probably not get Social Security.
And you call me selfish?
I have paid and paid to support your children.


183 posted on 08/20/2011 9:59:11 PM PDT by kaila
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To: vladimir998
The pro-life cause is never extreme.

You have gone so far past being "pro-life" that I think you must be a Reid plant to ensure conservativism is repulsive to all reasoning people.

184 posted on 08/20/2011 9:59:43 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: DJ MacWoW

There have been some very entlightening threads on FR lately. People who have chosen evil over good, right here on our very own FR. The strange thing is they seem to think that they are conservatives. And yet they hate human beings, the natural family, and procreation.


185 posted on 08/20/2011 10:00:21 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: surroundedbyblue
I resent that the truth about the Pill has be[e]n supressed

You poor delusional soul. The side effects of the pill have been known to anyone who cared to find out about it all my adult life, and no thinking considerate male would demand that a woman talk a drug she did not want to take after fully informed of the risks. But barrier methods are also decried as evil by your crowd of Luddite fellow travelers. Perhaps you should eschew penicillin and tetracycline as well. Then you can die of a common infection like at age 5 like God meant. Or did he? I am so confused by what I am supposed to believe God meant for us after listening to those of you who are so Christian and know so much better than the rest of us.

186 posted on 08/20/2011 10:07:09 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: little jeremiah

Evil to choose to not have children?
Evil is murder, rape, incest, child abuse.
Get your priorities straight.
Personally, I think 50% of families in this country should not procreate.
Having sex and popping out a baby is easy, raising a child is not.
I would say 50% of people in this country are not up to the task.


187 posted on 08/20/2011 10:08:13 PM PDT by kaila
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To: BenKenobi
When you put a bike together, do you believe that it is important to follow the instructions listed, or would you prefer to simply figure things out on your own and do the best you can? Do you believe that there is a moral jusitification for choosing one approach over the other?

For how to put a bike together? Good grief you folks are insane.

188 posted on 08/20/2011 10:09:45 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: little jeremiah
People who have chosen evil over good, right here on our very own FR

Who put you in charge to say that condoms are evil right here on your very own FR? Who? I want to know? Does God speak to you in voices? Did he give you a sign that you are among the annnoited to tell the rest of us that we are living in sin?

189 posted on 08/20/2011 10:12:00 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: hocndoc
Those of you who know me know that ethics is my avocation and that pro-life medical ethics are my passion.

However, contraception and/or childlessness whether due to infertility, abstinence or responsible contraception (including natural family planning) do not equal abortion or a lack of respect for human dignity.

If you don't know that some oral contraceptives are abortifacient, then your "passion" is very superficial.

190 posted on 08/20/2011 10:13:37 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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Comment #191 Removed by Moderator

To: A.A. Cunningham
If you don't know that some oral contraceptives are abortifacient,

Where did this "some" appear. Your fellow travellers are speaking in God-given absolutes. We [They I mean] mean all, including not just pharmaceuticals but barriers as well. Oh and they cause communism too. You need to get with the program.

Yes we all know that "some" are abortifacient. No one on this side of the table is quite as stupid as those on your side of the table are making us out to be.

192 posted on 08/20/2011 10:19:16 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: little jeremiah
The links wagglebee posted were to articles posted on FR. They were not to individual comments by people on FR. As you know, due to lawsuits and copyright issues FR can rarely post entire articles. So, if you click the links wagglebee posted on comment 62, you will find entire articles with one additional click. Is that too difficult for you?

No need for the sarcasm. When I post information, I try to make it easy for people to find the original scientific information. If you don't want to extend the same courtesy, don't expect people to do extra work to find buried information.

For instance, the first link goes to an article on the LifeNews site, which is not a scientific research article. It then has a link that says "four epidemiologic studies," that turns out to be a link to another LifeNews article - again not a scientific research paper. Clicking links in that article took me to an analysis, again not the original research. At that point, I gave up. If you read my original comment on this (#110) you'll see that I thought I had seen there was recent research supporting the link, but I can't now find it. When I looked today, I find several studies showing no link. If you have a link to a good quality (reasonable size, preferably prospective) study, please post it and I'll be glad to see it. Otherwise, don't waste my time asking me to comb through multiple links from nonscientific sources.

193 posted on 08/20/2011 10:20:22 PM PDT by sometime lurker
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To: trisham

Oh, they know we didn’t want twins. I cried when I found out. I knew it was dangerous, plus I didn’t know how we were going to afford it.

We laugh about it now, but it was hard. They got sick and almost died. One of them has a brain injury.

They are sweethearts. We’ve been blessed!


194 posted on 08/20/2011 10:21:51 PM PDT by luckystarmom
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To: trisham

Oh, they know we didn’t want twins. I cried when I found out. I knew it was dangerous, plus I didn’t know how we were going to afford it.

We laugh about it now, but it was hard. They got sick and almost died. One of them has a brain injury.

They are sweethearts. We’ve been blessed!


195 posted on 08/20/2011 10:21:52 PM PDT by luckystarmom
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To: kaila
Evil to choose to not have children?

How many more trillions do the liberals get to add to the [annual budget] deficit because of these ridiculous arguments? Instead of stopping it here, it seems we are going to go for broke in pursuit of the absurd.

196 posted on 08/20/2011 10:23:22 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: sometime lurker
LifeNews site, which is not a scientific research article. It then has a link that says "four epidemiologic studies," that turns out to be a link to another LifeNews article - again not a scientific research paper. Clicking links in that article took me to an analysis, again not the original research.

Wow. This is exactly the same run around you get from that other crowd of FR fraudsters - the cold fusionistas.

197 posted on 08/20/2011 10:26:04 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: hocndoc; miss marmelstein
That post was terribly inaccurate.

You did see my tagline, did you not?

The good news is that subsequent pregnancies can mitigate this effect in some women.

Not if they keep getting an abortion.

The immature cells that become abnormal and may continue to divide, until some of them become abnormal enough to be cancer.

Left over hormones or cell changes.... the result is the same.

198 posted on 08/20/2011 10:28:38 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lame and ill-informed post)
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To: AndyJackson

I am tired, I have to say goodnight.
I agree with what you have said on this thread.
I really, really, want Obama gone next election.
However, when you have people on FR who state that oral contraception is evil, the MSM ( who probably reads these threads)will portray that all conservatives are in agreement with this line of thought. Like it or not, the MSM still has a lot of power.
The people in the middle, who determine the outcome of elections, will think Republicans and conservatives all feel that way. They will vote Democrat.
We will have another 4 years of Obama.
Our country cannot survive another 4 years of Democratic rule.
When I see zealotry to the Taliban level, which runs counter to most reasoned opinion among conservatives, I will fight against it.
To the MSM, not all conservatives feel this way.
Only ultra,ultra, right wing conservatives feel this way.
They are in the minority.


199 posted on 08/20/2011 10:30:41 PM PDT by kaila
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To: hocndoc
Breast milk never causes cancer.

It may not. But something does. What causes the cells to die in large volumes, which is what the word 'cancer' denotes? And why specifically in the breast?

200 posted on 08/20/2011 10:32:55 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lame and ill-informed post)
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