Skip to comments.I Earned These Entitlements
Posted on 08/29/2011 7:22:55 AM PDT by Poundstone
I earned these 'entitlements'
I believe that most citizens do not understand what a federal entitlement program is. There are earned entitlements versus a special government entitlement that is given to an individual who needs assistance that is mandated by law.
What is a government entitlement? Note below that some are free and some are not! Why the government is lumping these programs together is beyond me: Only Congress would think this was a proper thing to do. How can a program like military retirement be linked with food stamps? The programs I am associated with should never be diminished by the federal government because they are either paid for by me and my wife or I have earned them. Most citizens believe all the federal entitlements are giveaway social programs and that is not true.
(Excerpt) Read more at redding.com ...
“....and that includes things like military pensions. We simply can’t afford for people to retire when they’re 38, and live off with a full set of government provided benefits...”
I’d argue with you there. A military life is extremely difficult for the member and his/her family. That 20 years is probably more like 30 years of wear and tear. I only spent about 4 yrs active and then 5 in the reserves and I can say that had I actually made it to retirement, it would have been a very long and difficult road. That was during peacetime, I can’t even imagine the toll it takes on today’s soldiers.....
Not that it’s any of your stinkin’ business, but no, SS is not my entire retirement. However, I did pay my money into it, and I should get it back.
Reading your posts, it’s abundantly clear that you’re all for taking money from others to feed some cause of your own. Good old wealth redistribution at its finest. Obama will be proud of you.
Government lying to the people is not new.
I earned the money. If you don’t want to pay SS, pay me back in full for what was ripped out of my paychecks.
Where is your honor? I think most here have none.
Most liberals think that military retirement is a give-away program like a form of welfare. I was at a party with a friend in Austin Texas and got ambushed by a bunch of liberals who scolded me for being a military retiree who was "living off the government".
“For your information, social security was an investment of my own money”
No it wasn’t, just like my SSIP confiscated money is not an investment today. Instead, it is a governmentally confiscated tax that is used to pay the current recipients right now. In your case it was confiscated to pay for the recipients that existed while you worked.
The fact that you got fooled, shows the success of the collectivist culture that has been getting pushed for decades.
Chrysler bond holders.
1) Liberals who don't understand economics and who think that bad people should pay taxes so that good people can have comfortable retirements.
2) Conservatives who believe the government is bankrupt and has no money but who know they paid into the system for decades and who feel outrage at the thought that they won't get paid what they are owed from the pile of money which they understand is not there.
3) Conservatives who believe the government is bankrupt and has no money and who don't understand how anyone can expect to be paid from the pile of money which they understand is not there.
Two of these three groups are not living in reality.
Technically incorrect. Ida May Fuller (who you're referring to) was the first recipient of monthly SS checks.
Ernest Ackerman was the first recipient of SS (when it issued lump-sum payments) and he got a whopping $0.17 after having paid in $0.05.
From the start it was a ridiculous system.
See First Payments
“Instead, it is a payment to the generation of folks that are currently drawing payments.....”
Well said. My dad calls me every month to thank me for his social security check (he recently found out how much I put into SS each month and was flabbergasted).
The one thing I have a hard time with, though, is those that don’t have to put anything into Social Security (because they ostensibly won’t get any when they get to retirement age). I have a cousin who’s a teacher, and I recently found out he doesn’t have to pay a penny towards SS.
I figure we have about an equal chance of ever seeing a dime of social security (him because he’s never paid in, and me because I’m young enough that I realize there’s no way I can count on getting any of my contributions back).
So I’m paying hundreds of dollars a month to carry those folks who are currently on social security and my cousin isn’t (he gets those hundreds of dollars to spend or invest as he sees fit). If I dwell on how unfair that is, I get sick to my stomach. So I’ll stop now...
As always, just like our present "leaders", a lot of the support for the most corrupt politicians came from non-working, non-taxpaying citizens. Now, less than 40% of the workforce pays federal income tax.
“Once upon a time, and mind you, I AM older than dirt, a persons word was golden.”
You might have thought that, but the very people that were selling you the social security snake oil were buying votes with it. You were just fooled into thinking that their word was golden.
“Honor was something of value, too, and most of us would have rather starved than ever take welfare, which was considered a disgrace and proof of failure to support oneself.”
This shows that now that you are on the federal dole, you have completely changed their mind. SSIP is nothing but a different name for a welfare system. Now you are fighting to continue taking something that would have shamed you a few short years ago.
It is actually rather sad that the feds have wipped you under control.....just imagine what they can do to the younger generations under the guise of health care.
“Now along come the boomers or whatever they call them, and the next thing you know theyre like a bunch of vultures hovering over the elderly, waiting to pick our bones dry, and worse, carping at us because we use up too many resources by living.”
You sure are stretching things now.....no one here is advocating “picking your bones dry” in this discussion. All we are asking is that you admit to being on welfare and that you did not make any investments. We have already realized that SSIP is most likely to go belly up before many of us would receive any money from our kids and grandkids, so we are planning to be able to survive without it.
It’s rather sad to see a FReeper defending his/her dependence on the federal government....and it is a good lesson for all of us.
I spent a little over ten years in during the GWOT era, spent plenty of time downrange, and when it got time to look at reupping, I thought about my retirement. My actual one, not the government one. I got out and became a contractor.
I could (and did) make more for my own retirement in the private sector, even though my peers argued that military retirement is a sure thing, safe bet. I told them back then that the way our country was heading, their retirements would be pushed back to 65 or slashed in size. There's nothing mysterious about it. America's heading to financial ruin, the voters aren't going to fall on their swords to keep niche entitlements going, even in patriotic niches. That's not how humanity operates.
Well, now the military retirement system is suddenly up on the negotiating block, and a lot of my peers are in a panic. But, all that means is the next generation of Soldiers will be promised less, and receive less, and the people that don't like it will simply go do something else.
And when I grow up, I wanna be just like you.......
“However, I did pay my money into it, and I should get it back.
Reading your posts, its abundantly clear that youre all for taking money from others to feed some cause of your own. Good old wealth redistribution at its finest. Obama will be proud of you.”
I find it comical when someone so clearly projects.....
You’re a sick individual. No ethics, no morals, just rip ‘em all off, the more the merrier. According you, what’s yours is yours, and what’s mine is yours. And all with a hearty “Too bad for you suckers who did the right thing all your lives” as you go.
Where is your honor? I think most here have none.
You talk about "honor" but the things you say are utterly stupid at best.
The money taken from your paychecks was spent at the same time you were earning it. It is gone.
You need to stop demanding that other people give you money for no reason or people are going to start thinking that you are some sort of nasty, grubby commie.
“As always, just like our present “leaders”, “
I agree and will continue to work very hard to make a difference. I hope for success, but do realize that in 30 years you can blame me for not yet seeing the success of that work.
You sound like a broken record. I guess I have to answer like one. Collecting social security that I paid is not the same as collecting welfare. If these monthly checks are such a pain, just give me back what I paid into it. That would suit me fine. I never wanted to have it taken out in the first place.
In short, I see a lot of people trying to have a reasoned discussion about a difficult and important topic. And in ever case, your response is very simple and straightforward:
"Gimme! I am owed!"
“....people are going to start thinking that you are some sort of nasty, grubby commie.”
I am having a hard time figuring out how you came up with your $350,000 in alleged contributions into SS even including the employer share. The numbers don't compute. Below are the taxes and wage caps by year since SS was instituted. And I doubt you were paying up to the wage cap at age 14. In 1971 the combined share of SS tax rates (OASDI) was 9.2% on a wage cap of $7,800 or a maximum of $718. Your 40 years of working contributing $350,000 works out to $8,750 a year.
In 1990 the cap was $51,300 and the combined OASDI tax rate was 12.4% for a total contribution of $6,361. In 2000 the cap was $76,200 and the combined tax rate was 12.4% for a contribution of $9,449. There is no way you could average an annual contribution of $8,750 a year for 40 years, especially since you started at age 14.
The main message I see is, “You can’t have what was promised, what you worked for, because ‘we’ have better uses for it.” Or in short, all of you are saying, Gimme, its ours.
I feel your pain. I have seen this coming for a long time.
This was a great article that didn’t get enough attention on FR.
A Critical Mass in America
www.stolinsky.com ^ | 08-25-11 | stolinsky
This is the goal, you're right. The tool being used is not a new one. The American Indians learned a hard lesson about Uncle Sam and his Contracts That Are So Good They're Almost Unbelievable! We're about to get a dose of that ourselves.
This is a perfect example of what happens when you trust the government to keep it's word when it's clearly just buying you off. The government is fundamentally about power, not about honor. The government will buy you off if you let it, but that's a cheap diversion to keep you voting the right way, not an eternal, holy covenant. If you forget that lesson, reality will teach a remedial class at the time of it's choosing.
You are a thief, and a false accuser now as well.
If you think you did the right thing your whole life - you're dead wrong. If you did you would know that SS was bankrupt and the only way you would get anything would be to steal from me. I knew SS was broke a generation ago as did everyone else. I remember it being the "third rail" of American politics - everyone knowing it was doomed and nobody having the HONOR to set things right.
Either you're an ignoramus or you planned the whole time that that was exactly what you would do, steal from people you thought wouldn't know any better. Which is it?
“You sound like a broken record.”
Hi Pot, I’m Kettle.
“I guess I have to answer like one.”
That’s a change in what way?
“Collecting social security that I paid is not the same as collecting welfare.”
Social security is nothing more than a tax on the productive today to issue federal paychecks to the recipients of today. It was the same in your productive working career. It is nothing more than a transfer of wealth, in other words it is WELFARE. The fact that this term rankles you, still does not change the smell of the “rose.”
“If these monthly checks are such a pain, just give me back what I paid into it.”
That is a big philisophical difference between you and me. I am more than willing to opt out of the system completely, foregoing any future payments for the ability to stop paying immediately. I would also voluntarily release any claim to the 26 years of payments that I have made. On the opposite side we have you who says, gimme, gimme, me entitled, yeah we are broke but dagnabbit, your money is belong to me!
i have been a software contractor since the late 80s. i’ve been ‘contributing’ (under threat of violence) max every year since 1991.
i’m self employed.
i pay twice as much to get 1/8th.
You are saying stupid things. Nobody here is trying to lay claim to the Social Security taxes you have previously paid. It is just that most people here are intelligent and honest enough to realize that that money is already gone.
Who is the real theif...the one who has been drawing for decades, and has already gotten their money back 4 fold???.....or is it the one that wants nothing more than their money back???.....or is it the one that says, screw both of you, you ain’t gettin a dime, and I will spend it whatever way I want????
You sir, have no honor or moral code,...you are a thief, plain and simple....
Yeah, how silly of me to think I should count on being repaid for all I paid into the social security system. How utterly selfish, as well.
(/dripping, acid sarcasm)
Do these people not have children and grandchildren?
Economic Cannibals. F’ing shame
There is no way the form lists your estimated taxes paid for SS as $350,000 (including the employer’s share) for 40 years of contributions starting at age 14. As I posted earlier, there is no way using the SS tax rates and wage caps that you could contribute that amount.
On those statements the amount you paid is a fact but the suggestion that you are entitled to anything is a lie.
“A well-reasoned reminder that some ‘entitlements’ are OWED to recipients due to what the recipient has put in. Such things as federal pensions (civilian and military), SS, etc”
Firstly, some people get SS without “put[ting] in,” so obviously in their case it’s not owed them (in your sense).
Secondly, if you think you get back what you put in, you’ve been duped. That’s not how the system works, nor how it was ever conceived to work. The money they take from you is just another tax, which is used to pay for, among other things, other people’s retirement. When you retire, you are paid for by yet other people, and so on. That’s how come the system can collapse even though everyone set to retire soon already “put in.” Because, duh, their expected payments must come from those who put in now, as opposed to decades ago.
There may float around theories connecting you paying for previous retirements and other people paying for your retirement. But they have no more substance than the idea that SS monies are set aside in a lockbox, or whatever. It just isn’t so. SS is yet another wealth transfer program, no more. As with unemployment “insurance,” if it wasn’t, you’d be doing it for yourself rather than the government doing it for you.
I don’t expect nor do I desire to receive any Federal “entitlement.”
Repaid by whom? By people not yet born when your elected government was spending every penny of the social security taxes collected from you?
You are not being silly. You are being crazy and stupid and immoral.
“Beneficiaries are entitled to those payments because they worked for them.”
Wrong. They paid for whatever they money that was taken from them was spent on. If they had truly been paying for themselves, they would have the money now (assuming they did so responsibly), wouldn’t they? Giving money to the government is not you working for benefits. It is you working for the government. The government can be nice to you in return or not, and we should all know it’ll mostly be not. Because government can be invidious, but more importantly is incompetent.
You either picked the wrong post of mine to respond to or you picked me incorrectly. I am not doing anything but stating reality. You were stolen from to provide welfare payments to those that were no longer productive. I am being stolen from to proved welfare payments to those that are not productive today. The government is the theif. You and I simply lose. Period.
How do we change that? The first step is to admit the truth, then we can triage what put is in the situation and then WE can ensure it does not continue to happen.
“Social Security (under SSI), Medicare and Medicaid (MediCal in California) have been so prostituted and bastardized from their intent that they no longer resemble their original purpose.”
I’m pretty sure they’re right on track according to their original purpose. Maybe not according to how they were sold, but then again the fact that they called it “insurance” should have been a tip-off. If it really was insurance, then someone would be able to make a profit off them, right? Then why would the government have to run them, except for all the usual reasons?
These threads always get heated. They shouldn’t be. No one is a thief or a liar or greedy. Seniors and military pensioners are not receiving “Welfare”. They are not bums with their hands out. For the most part they are decent people who paid taxes their whole lives and expected a Social Security check at age 65. Some will be in a lot of trouble if Social Security is taken away and no one should do that.
But on the other side of the coin, seniors can’t just keep repeating “I paid in so I should get back what I paid.” Posters who say that should explain who is going to pay that amount. Its not “politicians” and its not “the government” and its not “the people who promised it to me.” They are dead and there is no money other than tax money. That is the reality that seniors and those close to retirement can’t deny or avoid. Simply repeating “I paid in” isn’t going to change that reality.
So if you are asking for full benefits at age 65 or 66, you are asking your children and grandchildren to pay higher taxes. Period. No one is asking seniors to cut their Social Security check in half. The plans are to raise the retirement age and means test. And perhaps curtail future increases in payments.
So what is the specific issue? Is it means testing? That seems like it would be the one thing that would anger seniors who “paid in”. OK, if you don’t want means testing, then what is the solution? Raising taxes on the young? To keep entitlement spending where it is, federal taxes would have to be raised to 50% of GDP within the next 30 years. Is that what you want for your grandkids?
Rest assured that if I am still alive 30 years from now, I will NOT blame you. ; )
(/dripping, acid sarcasm)
OK, you feel entitled to your full SS benefit.
Who should pay for it?
I hope you recognize the cold, hard fact that there's no pile of cash in D.C. from which your benefit can be paid from; only current tax receipts and money that the Feds are borrowing.
The workers of today are generating the current tax receipts while children and the as-yet unborn will have to pay back the borrowed money.
So, again, who should pay in order for you to receive the full amount you feel entitled to?
“I don’t know whether there is a contractual obligation to pay for military or civil service retirements”
The problem with contracts with the government is that you’d have to sue to get them enforced, and the government runs the courts. They don’t like to be sued, and invoke a bastardized 11th amendment in their defense. Only civil rights cases routinely run the gauntlet.
And I'm not trying to minimize the size of the shaft you are getting with it. You state the absurdity of the system eloquently above without resorting to exaggeration.
“There is no such thing as an ‘earned’ entitlement - the Supreme Court has spoken definitively on the matter that SS is just another tax and entitles the payer to nothing at all.”
Which should have been clear all along, and indeed has been clear to various people from the time it was proposed through all its various changes. The fact that it could have tricked so many people into thinking it was their own money coming back to them, particularly on this board, is beyond me.
For starters, cut off ALL aid to illegal invaders of this country. Not only cut it off, but start enforcing our borders. Billions are spent yearly in just LA alone for schooling, welfare, and the crime they bring (and includes the amount for jailing them). Cut off ALL aid to countries that want to kill us. Cut off ALL social security disability. Cut off ALL welfare for anyone who’s able-bodied. Just for starters. But no one talks about that, or very few do. Just cut off the retirees. Probably because they figure we won’t riot as a result, and they’re probably right. I guess that makes us the easiest target.
So, because you were stolen from you are OK with stealing from others. OK, got it....NO need to convince me further. By the same token is it acceptable for rape victims to be legally allowed to commit rape?