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Confusion [Romney and Perry on Social Security in Debate]
Redstate.com ^ | Sept. 8, 2011 | Erick Erickson

Posted on 09/08/2011 3:41:18 AM PDT by justiceseeker93

I realize we're all supposed to be in the tank for Mitt Romney, but when the heck did we suddenly love Social Security?

We've got Karl Rove out there denying it is a Ponzi scheme solely because he hates Rick Perry. It's all politics, not principle.

Mitt Romney says that millions of Americans being dependent on government for their retirement is the definition of a successful program.

And we've got a solid segment of the conservative movement falling in line behind them. It's all so confusing.

Are we all so damn scared of Rick Perry that suddenly we're going to abandon the fight for real reform of Social Security and try to make Perry look like a fringe candidate, when in fact, his position has been the mainstream of the GOP for decades?

Social Security is, for all intents and purposes, a Ponzi scheme. Don't believe me? Try out the Securities and Exchange Commission definition:

(Excerpt) Read more at redstate.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: msm4rove; perry; ponzischeme; rickperry; romney; rove4perry; rove4romney; rovianpuppets; socialsecurity; texas
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This piece is based on last night's debate.

One of the lefty moderators, perhaps on cue from the White House, asked the candidates if they agreed or disagreed with Karl Rove's recent(?) remark that Social Security is not a Ponzi scheme. The main purpose of the question was to create a schism between the two front runners, Romney and Perry, and it succeeded in that regard.

To the extent that this issue separates the RINOs from the conservatives in the GOP, it's good to bring it out to the Republican primary electorate.

But it also could play into the Democrats' long-term general election strategy.

1 posted on 09/08/2011 3:41:20 AM PDT by justiceseeker93
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To: justiceseeker93

i will not-not-not vote for romney. and if perry has the habit of stickign his finger in people’s faces, that is not the characteristic of the kind of diplomacy a president needs. very disappointed.


2 posted on 09/08/2011 3:54:31 AM PDT by camle (keep an open mind and someone will fill it full of something for you)
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Comment #3 Removed by Moderator

To: justiceseeker93

Anyone who has to rely on the Social Security pittance for their living expenses is definitely not living. Romney should be ashamed to think that people can actually live off of Socail Security. It is a degrading system of reliance, that turns once proud Americans into paupers at the mercy of an ambivalent and fickle government.


4 posted on 09/08/2011 3:56:19 AM PDT by semaj
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To: justiceseeker93

Ponzi scheme DUH it is so why is anyone surprised at that comment. Seems to me people are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Perry was the only one with enough courage to call it what it is


5 posted on 09/08/2011 3:56:27 AM PDT by blueyon (The U. S. Constitution - read it and weep)
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To: justiceseeker93

Any Ponzi scheme can work in perpetuity, as long as there are new contributors and the first participants die off.

That is the essence of Social Security.

Some destructive elements to SS:

# the diversion of the ‘trust fund’ to other Govt. programs.
# increased life expectancy.
# lower birth rates after the ‘Boomers’
# adding beneficiary classes ‘under 65 & disabled’


6 posted on 09/08/2011 3:56:44 AM PDT by sodpoodle (Despair: Man's surrender. Laughter: God's redemption.)
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To: camle

“i will not-not-not vote for romney. and if perry has the habit of stickign his finger in people’s faces, that is not the characteristic of the kind of diplomacy a president needs. very disappointed.”

AND very wishy-washy on your part, eh?

JC


7 posted on 09/08/2011 3:59:08 AM PDT by cracker45
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To: justiceseeker93

“The main purpose of the question was to create a schism between the two front runners, Romney and Perry, and it succeeded in that regard.”

I didn’t see the debate, but based upon what I’ve read thus far I believe the question was a success in that regard.

Karl Rove pisses me off. He’s good as support for those he’s hired gun, but he’s not able to temper his pitch to accomodate the rest of us that he needs to be on his side by supporting us as well.

Social Security is in my mind the epitome of what Ponzi Scheme is, and most certainly has to be reformed.

Mitt Romney maybe was a wheeler dealer of past Olympics, but I wish those in support of the bastard would realize one major thing this election cycle, and that’s this isn’t tryouts for the Olympics.


8 posted on 09/08/2011 3:59:37 AM PDT by rockinqsranch (Dems, Libs, Socialists, call 'em what you will, they ALL have fairies livin' in their trees.)
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To: justiceseeker93

Libs won’t say it, but even they know SS is a ponzi scheme. Perry will get credit for speaking the unvarnished truth, even as the MSM tars and feathers him.

It was a bold and brilliant move by Perry.


9 posted on 09/08/2011 4:00:19 AM PDT by Tim n Texas
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To: semaj

That kind of snot noise comment will win lots of votes, and yes, in the real world, out side of your snot noise one, lots and lots of people live on social security. Do you actually know anyone?


10 posted on 09/08/2011 4:00:38 AM PDT by org.whodat (What does the Republican party stand for////??? absolutely nothing.)
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To: cracker45

ran into a couple of state level repubs yesterday. i told them i would stay home rather than vote for romney. actions speak louder than words, and romneycare speaks volumes.


11 posted on 09/08/2011 4:02:16 AM PDT by camle (keep an open mind and someone will fill it full of something for you)
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To: semaj

Even more so it gives an excuse for children with aging parents not to take any real responsibility for them.

“I don’t need to step up to the plate and be responsible for my parents, the state will take care of them”... How convenient. And we wonder what happened to the family...

And don’t come back to me and say ya but my parents have this or that and that’s too much for me to do... If not your job, who’s is it then?


12 posted on 09/08/2011 4:04:46 AM PDT by DB
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To: blueyon

I agree 100% with Perry on this one. I’m 58 and have created a life where I don’t anticipate getting anything from the government.


13 posted on 09/08/2011 4:06:10 AM PDT by mazda77
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To: org.whodat

Pot calling kettle black.


14 posted on 09/08/2011 4:06:16 AM PDT by DB
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To: justiceseeker93
Mitt Romney says that millions of Americans being dependent on government for their retirement is the definition of a successful program.

A lot of Americans were also dependent on Bernie Madoff for retirement.

15 posted on 09/08/2011 4:06:27 AM PDT by Labyrinthos
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To: sodpoodle

And getting the children off any direct responsibility for their parents.


16 posted on 09/08/2011 4:08:33 AM PDT by DB
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To: justiceseeker93
The way Perry burst onto the national scene suggests that he is backed by a powerful, well financed political machine.

Americans with functioning brains have learned from experience to be very wary of such as this.

On the other hand, such backing may be necessary for getting the Democrats out of office.

But, on the third hand, what good did it do to elect George Bush to the Presidency? His election blocked the election of Gore and Kerry, but the outcome of it was not much better--if at all--than if they had been elected instead.

17 posted on 09/08/2011 4:10:26 AM PDT by Savage Beast ("That is the great eternal question: Are 'Liberals' evil or stupid?" ~Ann Coulter)
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To: justiceseeker93
"We've got Karl Rove out there denying it is a Ponzi scheme solely because he hates Rick Perry."

Why does Rove hate Perry?

18 posted on 09/08/2011 4:11:21 AM PDT by Savage Beast ("That is the great eternal question: Are 'Liberals' evil or stupid?" ~Ann Coulter)
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To: semaj
So, do you think that people should provide for their own retirement so they don't have to scrape by on a pittance, relying on a fickle, ambivalent government?

I do!

Until recently this was the best time and place on the Earth to prosper and few should reach old age with nothing but need.

BTW, I am a baby boomer!

19 posted on 09/08/2011 4:12:13 AM PDT by Aevery_Freeman (***9/11*** Never Forget - Never Forgive ***9/11***)
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To: justiceseeker93

First, when did liberals suddenly think Karl Rove’s opinion was worthwhile? Oh, when he started to attack Republicans like Palin and Perry.

Ron Paul attacked his fellow Republicans more than he attacked Obama.....that makes him a disgusting man in my eyes.

Ron Paul lied about Perry supporting HillaryCare.

Ron Paul claims to be a physician. He has not practiced medicine in nearly 30 years because he does not go back to the private sector.

Romney is trying to use Social Security against Perry in the same way Obama will try to use it.....to scare seniors and praise a broken program.

Huntsman is a smug liberal in RINO clothing. He despises every other candidate in the primary and it shows. It is no wonder why liberals love him so much.


20 posted on 09/08/2011 4:12:17 AM PDT by Erik Latranyi
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To: blueyon
Ponzi scheme DUH it is so why is anyone surprised at that comment. Seems to me people are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Perry was the only one with enough courage to call it what it is.

Calling it what it was is one thing. Leaving it hanging like that is another. If people currently on or soon to be on Social Security are convinced that Perry is going to get rid of it and leave them with nothing then who do you think they're going to vote for?

21 posted on 09/08/2011 4:13:43 AM PDT by SoJoCo
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To: org.whodat

How cute. Bless your heart.


22 posted on 09/08/2011 4:14:30 AM PDT by semaj
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To: semaj

Romney should be ashamed to think that people can actually live off of Social Security.


You can’t blame Mittens for he has lived off “Daddy” all of his life and all that came to him was due to “Daddy’s” influence and pull.

How could someone who never made it on his own even conceive the notion that “the little people” could not exist on Social Security alone.


23 posted on 09/08/2011 4:14:39 AM PDT by DH ( Rick Perry 2012...Be proud to be an American once again!)
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To: Savage Beast
Why does Rove hate Perry?

I'm assuming it's a Texas thang.

24 posted on 09/08/2011 4:14:39 AM PDT by SoJoCo
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To: Savage Beast
Sort of a childish statement on erick, whatevers part, SS has been called the third rail for how many years now, and why.
25 posted on 09/08/2011 4:16:35 AM PDT by org.whodat (What does the Republican party stand for////??? absolutely nothing.)
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To: Aevery_Freeman
"So, do you think that people should provide for their own retirement so they don't have to scrape by on a pittance, relying on a fickle, ambivalent government?"

Exactly right. THanks for not calling me a snot-nosed brat.

26 posted on 09/08/2011 4:17:32 AM PDT by semaj
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To: SoJoCo
Why does Rove hate Perry?

"I'm assuming it's a Texas thang."

I'm not sure it's true.

27 posted on 09/08/2011 4:36:13 AM PDT by Savage Beast ("That is the great eternal question: Are 'Liberals' evil or stupid?" ~Ann Coulter)
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To: Savage Beast

“But, on the third hand, what good did it do to elect George Bush to the Presidency?”

Alito and Roberts ring a bell? How about the death of the AWB? Low unemployment for most of 8 years? No futher attacks on America after 9-11? etc etc


28 posted on 09/08/2011 4:40:07 AM PDT by Beagle8U (Free Republic -- One stop shopping ....... It's the Conservative Super WalMart for news .)
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To: Savage Beast

“Why does Rove hate Perry?”

Because he is pushing Romney.


29 posted on 09/08/2011 4:42:54 AM PDT by Beagle8U (Free Republic -- One stop shopping ....... It's the Conservative Super WalMart for news .)
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To: SoJoCo

Perry made it clear, and will continue to do so, that he does NOT plan to take anyone’s benefits away.


30 posted on 09/08/2011 4:43:45 AM PDT by RockinRight (Carter Obama and Reagan the nation!)
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To: DH
Not really looking to lay blame, but looking for solutions that will restore the people's individual control over their own resources. The discussion on SS should be on how to honor that which is owed, and simultaneously restore people's freedom to invest their resources as they see fit, instead of being subjected to illegal and unconstituional extortion foisted on them by a corrupt government.

Am I being idealistic? Yes I am, but great ideas are what created this country in the first place. I reject the current status quo as it is unsustainable and will eventually lead to implosion if not addressed soon.

31 posted on 09/08/2011 4:44:21 AM PDT by semaj
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To: SoJoCo

“Calling it what it was is one thing. Leaving it hanging like that is another. If people currently on or soon to be on Social Security are convinced that Perry is going to get rid of it and leave them with nothing then who do you think they’re going to vote for? “

So I guess you and all the media that are just playing clips did not hear (or are leaving out) the part were Perry said Those on it or soon to be on it like him, would not be effected (or stopped)from collecting, but the youth (young people) those he was address...................I hate 1/2 clips because they can lead people to think things that were never said!


32 posted on 09/08/2011 4:45:01 AM PDT by blueyon (The U. S. Constitution - read it and weep)
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To: RockinRight
Perry made it clear, and will continue to do so, that he does NOT plan to take anyone’s benefits away.

So...it's a Ponzi scheme but Perry thinks it's a good Ponzi scheme? And people are supposed to believe that?

33 posted on 09/08/2011 4:48:24 AM PDT by SoJoCo
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To: SoJoCo

It’s pointless trying to talk to you.


34 posted on 09/08/2011 4:54:19 AM PDT by RockinRight (Carter Obama and Reagan the nation!)
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To: justiceseeker93

I will never vote for Romney(care.) This isn’t 2008 and I’m no longer a republican. Sometimes you have to resign yourself to rebuilding from ashes. If Romney is the candidate, then America has chosen ashes just as sure as chosing obama again.


35 posted on 09/08/2011 4:59:23 AM PDT by Caipirabob ( Communists... Socialists... Democrats...Traitors... Who can tell the difference?)
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To: blueyon

I agree with Perry on this. And it does take courage to stand up against the status quo. But I wished he explained why it is and what to do to fix it.


36 posted on 09/08/2011 5:01:07 AM PDT by st.eqed
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To: st.eqed
But I wished he explained why it is and what to do to fix it.

Exactly. He totally failed. I watched the debate. The effect was that I went from being a Perry supporter back to being a "wake me in November 2012 and I'll vote the ticket" supporter. I was amazed how ineffective Perry is as a salesman/persuader/spokesman.

I know it's cliche to say this, but it reminded me of GWB. I used to get so frustrated at Dubya's inability to make a strong, clear argument. I do this bit for my wife, where I'm GWB saying "The world is better off without Saddam Hussein." And his supporting argument: "It just is" (shrugging shoulders.)

Same thing with Perry. Seemingly unable to support his statements in any kind of persuasive way. It's not enough to be right. You have to be able to demonstrate it. Honestly, I thought Perry sucked.

37 posted on 09/08/2011 5:23:24 AM PDT by Huck (I don't believe there is just one God--humanity seems like the work of a committee to me.)
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To: SoJoCo

Stop playing lame political games. You know damn well the intent is to honor financial promises to people too old to go back to work and transition to a system that would work for everyone else of a younger age. That has been the conservative position for a long time well before his book was even written.


38 posted on 09/08/2011 5:27:24 AM PDT by Soul Seeker (I will work every day to make Washington, D.C., as inconsequential in your lives as I can - Perry)
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To: st.eqed

Duh. The money won’t be there for young people who are forced to pay for current retirees’ current benefits.

There is no trust fund. Past contributions have all been spent. Current contributions are already out the door to pay current recipients.

No money, zip, zero, nada for the younger people to receive what their parents received.

What is wrong with people that they can’t see that, without having to be spoon fed the same clear facts over and over and over?...


39 posted on 09/08/2011 5:27:24 AM PDT by txrangerette ("...HOLD TO THE TRUTH; SPEAK WITHOUT FEAR." - Glenn Beck)
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To: justiceseeker93

“We’ve got Karl Rove out there denying it is a Ponzi scheme solely because he hates Rick Perry. It’s all politics, not principle.”

Funny... I guess he disagreed with Bush when he tried to reform it.


40 posted on 09/08/2011 5:33:00 AM PDT by wolfman23601
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To: justiceseeker93

“We’ve got Karl Rove out there denying it is a Ponzi scheme solely because he hates Rick Perry. It’s all politics, not principle.”

Funny... I guess he disagreed with Bush when he tried to reform it.


41 posted on 09/08/2011 5:33:10 AM PDT by wolfman23601
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To: Huck; st.eqed; Cincinatus' Wife

You both miss the point.

Perry did a masterful job of shaping and selecting the battlefield. He did not intend to offer solutions the first crack out of the barrel. His crafty purpose was to gain control of the debate, not the one at the Regan Library but the total campaign debate.

He now has all others including Obama on defense and months and months to carefully and fully make his points. It was a brilliant play


42 posted on 09/08/2011 5:33:44 AM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 ....Rats carry plague)
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To: blueyon
So I guess you and all the media that are just playing clips did not hear (or are leaving out) the part were Perry said Those on it or soon to be on it like him, would not be effected (or stopped)from collecting, but the youth (young people) those he was address...................I hate 1/2 clips because they can lead people to think things that were never said!

And how does Perry plan to fund Social Security for those on or soon to be on it? I must have missed that part. Since Social Security is basically a pay-as-you-go system right now then if those who will never see any benefits stop paying into the program, there will be no money to continue paying benefits for those who qualify. And what do they do then?

It's easy to condemn Social Security, and I'll be the first to agree that many of Perry's criticisms are justified. But Perry has a campaign to win and terrifying a large block of voters, especially those who vote the most, is not a way to win it. If he wants to advocate ending Social Security then he would do well to at least have some high-level suggestions on how he would safeguard the benefits for those already on it and what he would suggest in its place.

43 posted on 09/08/2011 5:35:14 AM PDT by SoJoCo
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To: RockinRight
It’s pointless trying to talk to you.

Because I ask questions that are too hard for you? Sorry.

44 posted on 09/08/2011 5:36:22 AM PDT by SoJoCo
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To: Soul Seeker
You know damn well the intent is to honor financial promises to people too old to go back to work and transition to a system that would work for everyone else of a younger age. That has been the conservative position for a long time well before his book was even written.

Then it would be nice if Perry said how he plans to honor the financial promise to people too old to go back to work, and what that transition for younger employees would be. And also a definition of 'too old to go back to work' would be nice as well. Are you saying some people already drawing benefits would be told, "You can work. Hit the bricks and find a job?"

45 posted on 09/08/2011 5:39:18 AM PDT by SoJoCo
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To: Soul Seeker; SoConPubbie

Thank you.

Perry in no way suggested that “it’s a Ponzi scheme but it’s a good Ponzi scheme”, to quote the poster’s comment.

Our kids won’t get any of it, because the money won’t be there when it’s their turn. That is the “monstrous lie” part that Perry was calling it.

I don’t know of anyone who seeks reform who doesn’t have a two pronged approach...one, pay benefits to those who depend on it now and to those soon to receive it, because it’s what they planned on and need, and two, change the system for our kids so they will have something for their senior years.


46 posted on 09/08/2011 5:41:09 AM PDT by txrangerette ("...HOLD TO THE TRUTH; SPEAK WITHOUT FEAR." - Glenn Beck)
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To: bert
It was a brilliant play

It seems to me supporters usually trot out the "3D chess" and "poker player" memes when they are rationalizing for bad performance.

47 posted on 09/08/2011 5:44:23 AM PDT by Huck (I don't believe there is just one God--humanity seems like the work of a committee to me.)
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To: SoJoCo; Soul Seeker; SoConPubbie

Post #46 is meant for SoJoCo, not soconpubbie, whom I pinged by mistake.

As I posted, this is standard and understood by everyone but demagogue’s on the left. We don’t need any demagogue’s on the right.

It’s understood that people on it now aren’t going to have it taken away. Paul Ryan has said as have many others that those 55 and over could also receive it when their time came.

But actuarily speaking, we already KNOW that people younger than that should stop planning on receiving it because there will be only two people working and paying in, for every one person receiving the monthly checks.

To pay for that would be a monstrous burden that would wreck the economic life of our nation, much less the economic lives of those having to pay.

When SS was created, there were 14 people paying in for every one recipient, and people didn’t live nearly as long as they do now.

Perry will continue to expand upon his statement over time. Lots and lots and lots of opportunities...

Romney is demagoguing it, and he is disgusting.


48 posted on 09/08/2011 5:53:14 AM PDT by txrangerette ("...HOLD TO THE TRUTH; SPEAK WITHOUT FEAR." - Glenn Beck)
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To: txrangerette

I understand you and agree with you. The point is somebody has to be the spokesman. Someone that can clearly articulate the problem and rally support to the just side. In that Perry failed. Until Palin gets in the race, I will remain nervous.


49 posted on 09/08/2011 6:06:09 AM PDT by st.eqed
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To: SoJoCo

So in a 3 min or less comment ...you want all the details, Well that ain’t going to happen. That is like asking a builder for the blueprints right after you tell him what you want. At least he/Perry is talking about it and in a fearless way. It was Congress who started to take money from the fund and use it else where. It is the media who is terrorizing the elder voters with Perry’s comment. They are not playing all of what he said.


50 posted on 09/08/2011 6:07:29 AM PDT by blueyon (The U. S. Constitution - read it and weep)
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