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China 'to Build Bigger Aircraft Carrier'
The Chosun Ilbo ^ | Sep. 09, 2011

Posted on 09/12/2011 8:17:26 AM PDT by sukhoi-30mki

China 'to Build Bigger Aircraft Carrier'

China has just refurbished an old Soviet aircraft carrier and is now expected to build a bigger one on its own that can house large surveillance planes. The Hong Kong-based Mingpao newspaper on Thursday cited the U.S. military website Strategy Page as saying China will build an aircraft carrier even larger than the Varyag that can carry a 21-ton early warning aircraft.

The website said China is also speeding up development of naval fighter jets, including homegrown early warning aircraft. A key example of this drive was the KJ-200 early warning aircraft, which is based on the 54-ton Y-8 cargo plane.

Strategy Page also said China has mounted an early warning radar on a Y-7 cargo plane, which is smaller than the Y-8, and is using it for aerial reconnaissance too.

The Y-7 weighs 21 tons and is similar to the U.S. Navy's E-2 Hawkeye and can be loaded on a carrier, according to Strategy Page.

Chinese military analyst Liu Jiangping dismissed the report. "It would be impossible for China to build a large aircraft carrier immediately after its first one just began trial voyages," he said. "This is just speculation that lacks credibility."

But Jiang Feng of the China Institute for International Strategic Studies said, "The objective of China's Navy in building an aircraft carrier is to bolster its aerial combat capabilities in the ocean that is crucial in protecting naval fleets. It is an inevitable trend to bolster maritime air combat capabilities and boost the capacity for three-dimensional strategies."


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aerospace; aew; aircraftcarrier; china; navair

Y-7 AEW

1 posted on 09/12/2011 8:17:30 AM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki
I would hope that it is obvious, but ... aircraft carriers are not defensive weapons. They don't guard your coasts, and they are not really used to keep shipping lanes open. Aircraft carriers are about power projection.

China is developing the ability to project power, but telling the world, "We just want to sell you stuff".

2 posted on 09/12/2011 8:20:32 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy (The USSR spent itself into bankruptcy and collapsed -- and aren't we on the same path now?)
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To: sukhoi-30mki
Chinese military analyst Liu Jiangping dismissed the report. "It would be impossible for China to build a large aircraft carrier immediately after its first one just began trial voyages," he said. "This is just speculation that lacks credibility."

Well they could start working on designs, but if they wanted to do it right they would probably hold off cutting steel until they have a couple of years experience operating a flattop. On the other hand they have money to waste. So they might just lay the keel and start work on the hull. That doesn't require a lot of aircraft handling experience. It is the layout of island, hangers and flight deck that require experience. And if they have the cash to do rework they might just start now to keep they yards busy.
3 posted on 09/12/2011 8:28:15 AM PDT by GonzoGOP (There are millions of paranoid people in the world and they are all out to get me.)
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To: sukhoi-30mki

How unexpected.


4 posted on 09/12/2011 8:29:04 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: GonzoGOP

Why would they need experience? They’ll just copy our designs or perhaps what the Brits used to have.


5 posted on 09/12/2011 8:30:24 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: driftdiver

Nothing, but NOTHING, can substitute for operational experience. If the ChiComs want to sell stuff, they should sell YouTube videos of their first attempts at fixed-wing carrier ops. It will make the Three Stooges look like like brain surgeons.


6 posted on 09/12/2011 8:33:07 AM PDT by tgusa (Gun control: deep breath, sight alignment, squeeze the trigger......)
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To: tgusa

They could always borrow footage from the Top Gun movie like they did before.


7 posted on 09/12/2011 8:34:42 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: ClearCase_guy
China is developing the ability to project power, but telling the world, "We just want to sell you stuff".

China is very uncomfortable with the amount of raw materials moving through the Straits of Malacca. A lot of their oil moves through those waters. And they are making a major effort to open up colonies (although they certainly won't call them that) in Africa. Yet all that trade can be cut off by one or two US or Indian carriers operating in the straits.

China has been expanding for some time. Once a nation becomes an overseas power it must become a Naval power, or be forever dependent on alliances with a major naval power. Since no such alliance is available for China, they are taking the next step of empire and building a blue water navy.
8 posted on 09/12/2011 8:35:09 AM PDT by GonzoGOP (There are millions of paranoid people in the world and they are all out to get me.)
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To: GonzoGOP

“It is the layout of island, hangers and flight deck that require experience.”

As well as the Catapult and arrestors


9 posted on 09/12/2011 8:35:23 AM PDT by roaddog727 (It's the Constitution, Stupid!)
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To: sukhoi-30mki
That is going to be one big fat target.

Carriers are not alone when they sail, the ChiComs forget that.

10 posted on 09/12/2011 8:38:03 AM PDT by Wizdum (Wisdom is what you gain when things go wrong.)
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To: driftdiver
Why would they need experience? They’ll just copy our designs or perhaps what the Brits used to have.

Because designing and operating a carrier without experience get you nothing but accidents, fires and embarrassing dockyard ornaments. On a carrier you do things a certain way or very bad things happen. Look up the Forestall or Enterprise fires to see just how bad a little mistake can get.

Also what might seem like little changes can cause a nightmare for operations. They tried to update the Ouija board system of aircraft tracking on the US Flattops with a computerized system. They went back to cutouts and bolts, because it worked. Why do deck crews look like a rainbow explosion of colors. Because color coding the crew works. That kind of "Looks goofy but works" procedures don't come from copying a blueprint. It comes from years of doing it, and just paying attention to what works, and throwing away what doesn't work, or what might cause the ship to blow up.
11 posted on 09/12/2011 8:43:45 AM PDT by GonzoGOP (There are millions of paranoid people in the world and they are all out to get me.)
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To: ClearCase_guy

They still have to crew the ship ... which with their Command and Control structure ... they will have problems

TT


12 posted on 09/12/2011 2:52:33 PM PDT by TexasTransplant (Radical islam is real islam. Moderate islam is the trojan horse.)
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To: magslinger

ping


13 posted on 09/12/2011 3:07:01 PM PDT by Vroomfondel
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To: sukhoi-30mki
A friend sent me this a month ago. I have no idea as to the status, if any.Photobucket

Photobucket

14 posted on 09/12/2011 3:16:13 PM PDT by Vinnie
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To: sukhoi-30mki
SONOBUOY PING!

Photobucket

Click on pic for past Navair pings.

Post or FReepmail me if you wish to be enlisted in or discharged from the Navair Pinglist. The only requirement for inclusion in the Navair Pinglist is an interest in Naval Aviation.

This is a medium to low volume pinglist.

15 posted on 09/12/2011 4:38:42 PM PDT by magslinger (To properly protect your family you need a bible, a twelve gauge and a pig.)
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To: Vinnie
This artist's concept is just fantasy. The ex-Soviet VARYAG (now named SHI LANG) is a 44,000 tonner with a ski-ramp bow and no catapults. Complement is about 10-12 J-15 fighters (a naval Sukhoi Su-33 copy) and a bunch of helicopters. The design is similar to the HMS INVINCIBLE-class carriers, except the Chinese don't operate jump jets like the AV-8B Harrier 2.

The Chicoms are going to need at least a decade to get into the specialized world of carrier aviation, and even then they'll still be learning. The Russians have discovered exactly the same thing operating their ADMIRAL KUZNETSOV carrier (similar to SHI LANG).

16 posted on 09/13/2011 12:40:56 AM PDT by MasterGunner01 (To err is human; to forgive is not our policy. -- SEAL Team SIX)
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To: MasterGunner01

Re: The Chicoms are going to need at least a decade to get into the specialized world of carrier aviation, and even then they’ll still be learning. The Russians have discovered exactly the same thing operating their ADMIRAL KUZNETSOV carrier (similar to SHI LANG).

You know... :) When I was still a virgin and not yet the slightest idea how exactly things work :), the older folks kidded with me. It goes as follow:

One source says stick to the left cos on the right are dangerous canine-like apparatuses...

Another source says No! No!, keep to the right because the left is very very toxic and posts a life or death situation...

further still, some says [don’t go beyond the point of no return] because that’s how people catches transmitible diseases...

Well... That scared the sh*ts out of me until, of course, the call of nature (need and necessity) strikes and the hell with the warnings issued — it’s all or nothing!

I mean seriously, if it requires for an inflatable from Japan to show us how the job is done, life would be a drag, wouldn’t you guys agree :)???

By the way, Shi-Lang is only speculative... There is still no official designation of the boat just yet... Rumors abound, I’m favoring the image of peace that the name “Beijing” gives...


17 posted on 09/13/2011 10:06:29 PM PDT by EdisonOne (I)
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To: EdisonOne
Carrier operations are a very difficult job for any pilot (or as the USN/USMC types prefer, Naval Aviator). Let's look at a typical takeoff/landing cycle.

Takeoff: Taxi to cat, engage launch bar and tension, cat crew dials-in takeoff weight of your bird for the cat to launch you, jet blast deflector up, go to zone 5 on the afterburners, and salute. BANG! Zero to 150 mph in two seconds flat. The guy driving has absolutely no control once the cat fires until he's airborne two seconds later. He takes it on faith the cat will work and he'll get up to flying speed. Otherwise he's in the ocean.

Landing: Returning birds are put in “marshal” (the order of landing). At three miles out (or so), the aviator calls “the ball” of the carrier's approach and landing system. The landing signal officer tells the pilot corrections for whether he's high or low or offset from the center-line. As soon as the wheels touch, the jet's throttles are rammed forward so that IF the tail hook doesn't engage one of the four arrester wires, the pilot has enough speed to do around and try again.

Night carrier landings are the scariest evolution a carrier aviator does and you really earn your flight pay when the ship goes “tactical” and the seas and weather have deteriorated to minimums. Night carrier landings produce more fright and tension than do combat missions (this was monitored and confirmed by Navy flight surgeons).

Now, imagine yourself landing a $40 million, 30-ton jet at 180 knots, in an area 80 feet wide by 200 feet long in pitch black conditions when the deck is moving up and down 30 feet and moving away from you at 30 knots.

If you manage a successful “trap” on the first pass, well done! However, if you keep missing (a “bolter”) and have to go around several times, you may run low on fuel. Then it's go up and refuel from the tanker (if he's airborne). If these are blue water ops and there aren't any divert fields and no tankers, you either have to get back aboard or ditch a very expensive jet. Losing one’s airplane is frowned upon in your annual officer's fitness report.

The Russian Naval Aviators from ADMIRAL KUZNETSOV have experienced such things (except for the cat launches). The fledgling Chinese Naval Aviators will be doing their version of carrier qualifications soon. It will not be easy and there will be a steep (sometimes fatal) learning curve.

18 posted on 09/13/2011 10:53:54 PM PDT by MasterGunner01 (To err is human; to forgive is not our policy. -- SEAL Team SIX)
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To: MasterGunner01

***Re: Carrier operations are a very difficult job for any pilot (or as the USN/USMC types prefer, Naval Aviator)***

Yeah, it’s such a difficult technique I just can’t see how anyone else in this world others than us westerners can muster the technique...

***Re: Let’s look at a typical takeoff/landing cycle***

Hehe... That sounds exactly like these guys who told me how to do it — the right way :)...

***Re: Takeoff: Taxi to cat, engage launch bar and tension, cat crew dials-in takeoff weight of your bird, etc...***

Wow! That warning should scare the livin’ daylights out of anyone who as much as consider trying out the trick and, of course, life’s most “exotic” of experiences :)...

***Re: Now, imagine yourself landing a $40 million, 30-ton jet at 180 knots, in an area 80 feet wide by 200 feet long in pitch black***

Well... I don’t know how “quicky de’gonzalas” Eliot Spitzer is at it but — he did it, didn’t he :)??? I’m sure his F-18 is equally as tantalizing and expensive... I’m also sure he lands on it with ease and — :) in pitch black as well no problemo on his King sized deck :)...

Hey! No hard feelin’s... just a little kiddin’round to make a day more bearable...


19 posted on 09/14/2011 8:01:07 AM PDT by EdisonOne (I)
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To: EdisonOne
You obviously haven't seen someone die when things go wrong during carrier operations. I have. I don't think dying is funny. I don't think the extinguishing of life at such a young age merits mirth and snide comments.

On average, for EVERY deployment a carrier makes (6 to 9 months) there are 10 to 12 people who are killed and never come home. Most are pilots and aircrew, but some are flight deck personnel. Yeah, I know, it's only 10 to 12 of the 5,000 people aboard, so who cares?

All the flight or hazardous duty pay in the world won't buy back a human life. Think about that.

20 posted on 09/14/2011 9:14:13 AM PDT by MasterGunner01 (To err is human; to forgive is not our policy. -- SEAL Team SIX)
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To: MasterGunner01
I think you're making the assumption that the lives of PLAN servicemen matter to the Chinese authorities. I suspect that assumption is erroneous. The Chinese will take all kinds of risks with the planes and the lives of PLAN personnel to get where they want to go faster, as long as these risks don't carry political repercussions - which they won't as long as they are showing forward progress. Empathy isn't a defining Chinese characteristic - the average Chinese doesn't care who dies as long as he personally benefits.

In the end, the Chinese will catch up rapidly because of several factors: (1) they possess the material resources to pursue their objectives, (2) they are willing to devote those resources to the pursuit of these ends and (3) they have no compunction about risking large numbers of casualties to achieve national goals. They will catch up in the same way that a technologically-backward Japan managed to field the second most powerful naval aviation force in the world at the onset of WWII, by throwing men and money at the project.

21 posted on 09/16/2011 8:54:45 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: Zhang Fei
I am well aware that the PLAN doesn't give a rat's rear end about its pilots, planes, or ships. To them it's about numbers.

However, numbers do not equal experience. Carrier aviation has a very steep learning curve. Lots of people making mistakes and dying before they learn how to fly and land off a pitching carrier deck does not help matters.

Now, can the PLAN aviators do it? Yes. However, if the Chinese want to come out and play war in their J-15s, you're going to see a lot of smoking holes in the ocean. Also, a spread of Mk 48 torpedoes from an SSN will ruin the PLAN carrier's day.

22 posted on 09/16/2011 9:25:41 PM PDT by MasterGunner01 (To err is human; to forgive is not our policy. -- SEAL Team SIX)
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To: sukhoi-30mki
China has just refurbished an old Soviet aircraft carrier and is now expected to build a bigger one on its own that can house large surveillance planes.

Is that because they can't make good drones?

23 posted on 09/16/2011 9:30:26 PM PDT by Paleo Conservative
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To: driftdiver

Funded ENTIRELY by “free trade”.

Wake up, people.


24 posted on 09/16/2011 9:36:59 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network ("Cut the Crap and Balance!" -- Governor Sarah Palin , Friday August 12 2011, Iowa State Fair)
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