Posted on 09/13/2011 12:29:35 PM PDT by triumphant values
ATLANTA (AP) -- The retired NBA All-Star and a friend claim they were ousted from the bar of a ritzy Atlanta restaurant because they were black. The restaurant says they weren't the victims of a discriminatory policy, but a long-standing practice rooted in Southern hospitality that allows women a seat at the bar when the place is packed.
Those arguments were made Monday at the start of the weeklong federal trial of a lawsuit filed by Joe Barry Carroll and attorney Joseph Shaw. The two say they were humiliated when a security guard escorted them from the Tavern at Phipps when they refused to give up their seats to a couple of white women, an action they say was part of a broader pattern of discrimination against blacks.
"You're probably thinking: Two black gentlemen go to a bar - this is a joke," Jeffrey Bramlett, an attorney for the men, told the jury during opening arguments. "But it's no joke. The evidence will show a serious civil rights violation."
(Excerpt) Read more at hosted.ap.org ...
On the other hand I think businesses should be able to refuse service to anyone for any reason and would like to see the Civil Rights Act of 1964 repealed.
I completely agree with you. And there’s a third point, which is that politeness is an individual moral choice; it cannot be compelled.
Apparently if you have bad manners and are black, you have grounds for a lawsuit. I suspect that if the men were white and the womwn were black, the restaurant would have done the same thing (and the men would not have acted like spoiled children with a lawyer). If you can’t give up your seat to a lady and drink standing up, you don’t deserve a drink anyway.
I disagree. If I own a business, I can “compell politness” from my patrons.
I just don’t know why you want to punish conservative ladies for what the liberals have done to men.
“suspect that if the men were white and the womwn were black, the restaurant would have done the same thing”
The problem with your argument is that it is unprovable. The men “paid” for their seat. If a bartender compelled me to leave my seat so someone else could sit down, I’d be pissed.
“If I own a business, I can “compell politness” from my patrons.”
Compelled politeness is not politeness. Making a black person give up his seat to a white person is a recipe for disaster. How stupid are these people?
You can compel a desired behavior, certainly, but you can’t compel the emotion from which the behavior is supposed to spring. I doubt the two women involved were grateful to the men who were compelled to give up their seats, since they knew the men didn’t want to do it.
So you’re rude to women and scared of black men. At least that’s how it looks to me.
First of all I don't see many conservative women talking about really turning back the clock on sex roles in America. A lot of what you call "conservative" women are fully signed on to enjoy the fruits of feminism. You may have some very old guard types like a Phyllis Schlafly who tenatively talk about it but even she has benefited to some removal of patriarchy.
Secondly, I don't see it as a punishment. Women were treated deferentially in former times because they held a different status. When you give them the deference but the same status what you are doing is asking the men to degrade themselves.
You can't have a society where men and women compete for the same jobs, yet have men still be deferential. It's ludicrous.
“women wanted equality “?
:women wanted equality, Just as blacks claimed to want equality.
And since this has become the law of the land in far too many instances standards have had to be loosened.
Test scores, physical tests, even psychological and legal standards have been lessoned to attract many who otherwise would have failed.
But we gots to have diversity at all costs.
That is not the Christian view.
“So you’re rude to women and scared of black men. At least that’s how it looks to me.”
I realize thinking is hard but you really should try it. Why is it rude for me to disagree with a bartender forcing a black person to give up their seat for a white person? Did you miss the whole Rosa Parks thing? The bus driver did not ask her to give up her seat. He forced her to give up her seat.
Forcing someone to do something is not “polite”. Giving up your seat of your own free will is polite.
Anti-gun people could get rid of conceal carry by simply saying that having a concealed weapon might frighten women. Polite men would be forced to slink back to their car and leave their weapons in the name of “politeness”.
Staffers were also told to "slow serve" black patrons during hectic times, he said. And during the February 2003 NBA All Star game, when young black basketball fans crowded the city, the restaurant hung large "Welcome Rodeo Fans" banners and played country music, according to court records.
It was all aimed at attracting "white businessmen and well-endowed women" at the expense of black patrons, Bramlett said.
Five'll get ya ten this is a union set-up/shake-down.
“If I own a business, I can “compell politness” from my patrons.”
Looks like complexion trumps all, cracker.
Go ahead and google ( or bing ) the words ‘ tavern at phillips yelp ). First result is this establishment on the review site yelp.com. Sure enough, the bad reviews for this ‘ racist ‘ restaurant have begun and I've no doubt it will not stop.
Being called a racist in the late 20th century / early 21st century is the same as being called a witch in 17th century Salem: you are guilty, no questions asked, no proof needed. The charge is fact no matter the truth.
There was a very nice club I used to go to back in the late 1990’s. Wonderful place with three great bartenders. The place was always quite until about 9:00 Pm at night and it closed at 2:00 Am. But they were open at about 5:00 PM and once a week a large group of professionals would come in at about that time and stay for a couple hours. Everyone was all very nice as I had been told but for two hours the three bartenders and cocktail servers would bust their humps for free. This group was entirely made up of young black professionals. They rarely if ever tipped, all very pleasant - but the slimmest of tips you could imagine.
But can you imagine if the manager or staff said anything? forget it - your screwed.
It doesn't matter. It's reality now. Women agitated to take down the traditional Christian patriarchal society. Men stupidly gave them what they wanted.
Men won't set things back by being deferential to a sex that can also be their bosses at work busting their balls.
The only thing that will work is giving women exactly what they asked for and then some. Some are already starting to wake up to "be careful what you wish for, you just might get it".
Now maybe you don't see yourself as one of these women. But I can tell you that prior to the Progressive Era it wasn't a woman's place to openly opine on politics.
Would you be willing to go back to that in return for a traditional Christian patriarchy with men being gentleman, women being ladies, marriage before sex, orderly and polite streets and all the trappings that came with it?
That's true, and the best way to combat it is when someone calls someone racist is go "ok, whatever" and then continue on as before.
The reason the attack is still used is because when conservatives are called racist, they go "no I'm not" and then go off with diarrhea of the mouth with ten million reasons why they aren't drawing them off topic.
In other words, it works.
And Mr. Greenbaum is right. That's the fact that needs to be driven into public over and over again, instead of conservatives fleeing in panic every time the word "racist" is brought out.
That's my life now, except for the streets.
The road you're talking about is the same one that got Adam and Eve kicked out of the Garden. Bye-bye America.
On the one hand women wanted equality and I think it should be pointed out to them what equality really means....etc....
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
I (white) was leaving an establishment and a woman (white) was coming up to the door and I held it open for her. She ‘elbowed’ past me and mumbled something and I thought I heard lady. I said “Excuse me”? and she nastily said “I said you don’t have to hold the door for me just because I am a lady”.
I just replied “I held the door for you because I am a gentleman, I think no one would ever mistake you for being a Lady”.
BTW, I will hold the door for ANYONE within a reasonable distance, whether you be young, old; black, white; male, female; etc.....it really doesn’t matter.
I do too, it's just how I was raised. But I understand why it no longer holds for society at large and I can even agree that it shouldn't under our current cultural regime.
The most disturbing thing about this article is that the men were escorted from the bar by an off-duty cop who worked for the bar.
Private citizens should not be able to hire active duty police officers to enforce their own special laws. Cops who take such jobs should be fired.
You have to remember, EVERYTHING is seen through a black person’s “racist” filter. Everything.
So now you’re equating a couple of ex-NBA players in a bar with Rosa Parks? That sounds like something Al Sharpton would do. And your gun control analogy is ridiculous. You’re the one who needs to try “thinking”. If the concept of politeness is over your head, then I give up.
Go ahead, call me a racist for saying black men (even “ex-NBA players”) should have the same manners as white men. Call me a cracker, and I’ll call you a punk.
As does my husband. You are both gentlemen.
Did the bar only have 2 stools? Why was it the responsibility of these two guys in particular to give up THEIR stools for the 2 broads? How many OTHER guys at the bar did not offer to give up THEIR seats?
Can you be tossed for interrupting a conversation?
What if you order a drink without saying "please"?
Please refer to Post 29 below. Why were ONLY these 2 guys obligated to yield THEIR seats to the pushy broads? Sounds like a racist set-up to me. I’m a white redneck, but chicken$chidt under ANY guise still trips my trigger!
As best I can tell, in your world, politeness is defined as “something you are forced to do”.
The assertion this was some old fashioned Southern hospitality does look weak, seeing as the South doesn't exactly have a long history of "ladies" being in bars.
And that signals the need to acquire Laz's opinion.
Oh I’m a star, I ain’t moving for no broad.......no class, none whatsoever. They weren’t picked on because they were black, they wouldn’t get up and give their seats up.
They were the only two males sitting. The other men were standing already.
There’s a lot in this story that we don’t know. Maybe there was only one pair of men together. Maybe all the other seats were already taken by women. Maybe these 2 ex-jocks were behaving like loud, spolied jocks. Maybe they were just sitting there without ordering anything. If they were ordered to give up their seats solely because they were black, hell yes, that’s wrong, and grounds for a lawsuit. It just looks to me that the “set-up” is a couple of spoiled black jocks playing the race card, but like I said, we don’t know the whole story, and that’s just my opinion.
There’s a lot in this story that we don’t know. Maybe there was only one pair of men together. Maybe all the other seats were already taken by women. Maybe these 2 ex-jocks were behaving like loud, spolied jocks. Maybe they were just sitting there without ordering anything. If they were ordered to give up their seats solely because they were black, hell yes, that’s wrong, and grounds for a lawsuit. It just looks to me that the “set-up” is a couple of spoiled black jocks playing the race card, but like I said, we don’t know the whole story, and that’s just my opinion.
There’s a lot in this story that we don’t know. Maybe there was only one pair of men together. Maybe all the other seats were already taken by women. Maybe these 2 ex-jocks were behaving like loud, spolied jocks. Maybe they were just sitting there without ordering anything. If they were ordered to give up their seats solely because they were black, hell yes, that’s wrong, and grounds for a lawsuit. It just looks to me that the “set-up” is a couple of spoiled black jocks playing the race card, but like I said, we don’t know the whole story, and that’s just my opinion.
There’s a lot in this story that we don’t know. Maybe there was only one pair of men together. Maybe all the other seats were already taken by women. Maybe these 2 ex-jocks were behaving like loud, spolied jocks. Maybe they were just sitting there without ordering anything. If they were ordered to give up their seats solely because they were black, hell yes, that’s wrong, and grounds for a lawsuit. It just looks to me that the “set-up” is a couple of spoiled black jocks playing the race card, but like I said, we don’t know the whole story, and that’s just my opinion.
Joe Barely Cares must be running out of money - in his playing days he never would have expended this much effort. :)
As best I can tell, in your world, bad manners are a badge of honor, and you wear it proudle.
I have no idea how that happened.
“They were the only two males sitting. The other men were standing already.”
Neanderthals... they were the only two Neanderthals sitting. The other men were standing already.
When Joe Barry Carroll played for the Golden State Warriors he earned the nickname of Joe Barely Cares.
In my world, good manners aren’t something you are made to do.
I’m glad I don’t live in your world. It must be pretty mean and lonely in there.
“It must be pretty mean and lonely in there.”
I bet you can empathize. After all, it’s just you and Jim Crow against the world.
When Joe Barry Carroll played for the Golden State Warriors he earned the nickname of Joe Barely Cares.
Wow, I can't believe both of the Golden State Warriors' fans are Freepers.
Watch it, buddy - those griping Cubs fans have nothing on us. I can still recite Chris Washburn’s career stats from memory. :)
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