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Can America Afford to Allow ANY Labor Unions to Legally Exist?
Vanity/Commonsense | September 14, 2011 | Graewoulf

Posted on 09/14/2011 7:40:29 AM PDT by Graewoulf

With the very successful bankrupting of America by Dictator Obama, Dodd-Frank bill/law/bill, un-Constitutional Entitlement taxation laws such as Social Security System, MediCare, MediAid, and obabmatrauma"care", does America really need to continue to allow our Labor Unions to exist? Is this not overkill?

Look at the record of the Teacher's Union in 2008: they supported a candidate that was totally incompetent, and totally without experience to take over running the world's largest business, which is the US Federal Government.

One would think that teachers would be educated enough to distinguish between competent and incompetent, qualified and unqualified. It gives one pause, as these are the same teachers who are being paid by us to teach our children THEIR values.

Now that America has been so successfully bankrupted, do we really need this much overkill? The Liberal's Welfare State has won, and we all promise to learn Chinese, hire only illegal aliens, and keep on voting for those who promise to burden us with the most debt possible.

The debt-creators have won, but do we need to have Labor Unions to continue to bully us around?

Hopefully, the New Jersey Law against Bully Behavior can be approved by the NINE SUPREMES, so that all of America can be protected from those bad bully bastions of behavior beneficial only to Labor Unions, and their spawn.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government
KEYWORDS: doom; gloom; poverty; unemployment
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Post your humble, but ALWAYS correct opinion on Labor Unions here. [ I am an equal opportunity opinion poster, so please post Pro-Union comments, IF YOU DARE ! ]
1 posted on 09/14/2011 7:40:36 AM PDT by Graewoulf
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To: Graewoulf
unions literally kill everything they touch.

Railroads
Steel
Autos
Manufacturing in general

Unions should be destroyed, ground into dust and their leaders imprisoned.

2 posted on 09/14/2011 7:43:20 AM PDT by TexasFreeper2009 (Rick Perry 2012 !)
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To: Graewoulf

I would think a Mine Workers Union might be necessary.


3 posted on 09/14/2011 7:44:59 AM PDT by MetaThought
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To: Graewoulf

Can America afford to allow ANY Labor Unions to legally exist. NO!!

More “crony Capitalism” at work. Unions get special benes from gov. thereby giving them an advantage over business and schools.


4 posted on 09/14/2011 7:45:05 AM PDT by Marty62 (Marty60)
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To: Graewoulf
My father was a union man, back when you could be beaten or worse for being pro union. By the time he retired, he hated them.

I was forced into union membership in my first job and it was not a good experience.

The good that unions COULD DO do and DID is done. NOW, unions are hide out for bad workers and an impediment to labor and prosperity.

What is worse, unions have consistently aligned themselves with the enemies of the United States and they have influenced (continue to influence) national politics in a way and to an extent that is out of all proportion to their actual numbers.

5 posted on 09/14/2011 7:47:34 AM PDT by SMARTY ("When you blame others, you give up your power to change. " Robert Anthony)
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To: Graewoulf

People have freedom of association and the right to enter into a contract. That said, people have freedom from association and freedom not to enter into a contract. Banning labor unions is unconstitutional... as is taking away one’s right to work or to enter into their own employment contracts.


6 posted on 09/14/2011 7:49:15 AM PDT by wolfman23601
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To: Graewoulf

Unions are nothing more than legalized extortion against the job creators of America. They are enemies of the people. Unions need to be outlawed, fully investigated for illegal activities and the guilty within swiftly and severely punished.


7 posted on 09/14/2011 7:50:36 AM PDT by liberalh8ter
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To: Graewoulf

The phrase used by the big guy that “behind every economic catastrophe is a powerful union” was pulled from some writing I did I am proud to say - and lets you know how I answer this question.


8 posted on 09/14/2011 7:50:47 AM PDT by C. Edmund Wright
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To: MetaThought

People who want to abolish labor unions really need to read a bit of history about the world before they existed and what prompted their creation.

I am NO fan of “big labor”, but I understand what unions really can do for the “little people”. Seriously.

That said, they need to be contained, just as businesses are to be contained if their power gets out of hand. And there is NO place for unions in government jobs. That really SHOULD be abolished.

I think making every state a “right to work” state would effectively cut union power down to something more manageble and “fair” to both sides.


9 posted on 09/14/2011 7:52:42 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: Graewoulf

Unions were based on Marxism...still are.


10 posted on 09/14/2011 7:53:17 AM PDT by Prokopton
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To: TexasFreeper2009

You left out the “public” sector unions which have destroyed the educational system and have many cities and even states looking at huge deficits in their budgets due to union wages and benefits.


11 posted on 09/14/2011 7:57:19 AM PDT by LibertarianLiz
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To: SMARTY
By the time he retired, he hated them.

Similar story with my late father.

12 posted on 09/14/2011 7:58:48 AM PDT by LibertarianLiz
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To: Graewoulf
Yes, but they should be prohibited from making political contributions or endorsing candidates. Issue adds only. All member dues are voluntary and they cannot force "union shops".

If being in the union provides value to the workers they will have no problem getting members. If not they will be quickly broken. And they are not part of the political process except tangentially.
13 posted on 09/14/2011 8:01:13 AM PDT by GonzoGOP (There are millions of paranoid people in the world and they are all out to get me.)
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To: SMARTY

“The good that unions COULD DO do and DID is done. NOW, unions are hide out for bad workers and an impediment to labor and prosperity.”

Bingo! I watched as the unions destroyed Pittsburgh in the late 60’s and 70’s. I think that’s when I became a Republican


14 posted on 09/14/2011 8:07:19 AM PDT by freeangel ( (free speech is only good until someone else doesn't like it)
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To: cuban leaf

I am NO fan of “big labor”, but I understand what unions really can do for the “little people”. Seriously.

This statement lends some degree of altruism to unions in general. I’m betting that right from the start, it was more an issue of what tens of thousands of “little people” could do for a union than the other way around.


15 posted on 09/14/2011 8:07:19 AM PDT by wita
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To: Graewoulf

I have had to deal with unions for a long time (I’m 65) and I have yet to find one that was anything other than a fundraising tool of organized crime. Period. End of discussion.


16 posted on 09/14/2011 8:07:19 AM PDT by Wordkraft
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To: Prokopton

Exactly correct.

ALL unions need to be made illegal. I’d put most union officers in prison where they’d feel at home.


17 posted on 09/14/2011 8:08:50 AM PDT by MasterGunner01 (To err is human; to forgive is not our policy. -- SEAL Team SIX)
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To: TexasFreeper2009

Unions should be destroyed, ground into dust and their leaders imprisoned.

Yep. The concept is noble (honest days pay for an honest day’s work) but like anything else, man corrupts.


18 posted on 09/14/2011 8:10:52 AM PDT by Bitsy (!)
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To: wita

—I’m betting that right from the start, it was more an issue of what tens of thousands of “little people” could do for a union than the other way around.—

Well, I think it was both. Before unions, the “labor ready” concept was a fact of life for many americans in blue collar jobs. Every day you showed up to see if you were one of the ones picked that day. And the wages sucked because there were 500 guys standing there for 300 jobs and no minimum wage. They paid just enough to keep people from lashing out.

Unions gave people a steady job with a living wage. That is a good thing. But just like government or business, it can get too big and too powerful. That is what should be avoided. And just like business and government, it attracts people into leadership positions with less than honorable intentions.


19 posted on 09/14/2011 8:12:41 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: Graewoulf

If workers who have not been indoctrinated or intimidated, and who are not public employees CHOOSE to unionize, that is their right. But Right to Work should be the law of the land.


20 posted on 09/14/2011 8:16:43 AM PDT by JimRed (Excising a cancer before it kills us waters the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS, NOW AND FOREVER!)
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To: cuban leaf

“People who want to abolish labor unions really need to read a bit of history about the world before they existed and what prompted their creation.”

Do the conditions to which you refer still exist in non union companies today? Are there not laws on the books that cover virtually every aspect of hiring, managing, and firing an employee? From the number, duration, and frequency of rest periods, to the number of hours an employee can work without overtime, to safety rules, to minimum wages that can be paid, to the minimum age one can be allowed to work, to discrimination in hiring, every aspect of a job is mandated, regulated, scrutinized, and reported. What is left for the union to do today to “protect” the workers?


21 posted on 09/14/2011 8:19:57 AM PDT by SoCal Pubbie
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To: cuban leaf

And just like business and government, it attracts people into leadership positions with less than honorable intentions.

Yea. I always enjoyed the latest rape of union pension funds, back in the days before creative accounting, (although that would be pretty far back). Government is another story in itself as at least a union thug could be prosecuted for his crimes, it was rare to never for crooks in congress to get justice for theirs. Or should that read punishment for theirs?


22 posted on 09/14/2011 8:21:15 AM PDT by wita
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To: Graewoulf

Public sector unions should be abolished. That should be done by a GOP Congress and President. Private unions are dying on their own.


23 posted on 09/14/2011 8:24:06 AM PDT by SC_Pete
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To: Graewoulf

Let’s bust em up and make em illegal.

They are nothing more than a democrat money laundering vote generating machine.

And democrats are communists.

Let’s roll!


24 posted on 09/14/2011 8:24:22 AM PDT by chris37 (representative)
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To: Graewoulf

We have to differentiate between what is now a union (criminal enterprise) and what collective bargaining on a voluntary local scale was once about. Worker and Trade associations were communist ideas, but most people that originally joined because of crappy management. We need to remember, that we still have crappy management (White House,SEIU, NEA, Teamsters, Etc.)and thus there is some need for people to band together to protect themselves. The trick is that the banding together must by totally voluntary and revocable at any time.


25 posted on 09/14/2011 8:26:01 AM PDT by Steamburg (The contents of your wallet is the only language Politicians understand.)
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To: cuban leaf
In America you do not have a RIGHT to a job. You do not have a RIGHT to a minimum wage, living wage, any wage. The original unions were not composed of slaves. Slavery had been abolished.

Unions are NOT organized labor, they are organized crime (e.g. theft, extortion, assault, battery, etc.); and they have been since their inception.

26 posted on 09/14/2011 8:26:08 AM PDT by PENANCE
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To: Graewoulf
Unions have always been associated with and trade support with Marxists and Communists, and therefore I believe all unions, Marxists, and Communist organizations should be illegal.
27 posted on 09/14/2011 8:28:25 AM PDT by Navy Patriot (Holy flippin' crap, Sarah rocks the world!)
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To: cuban leaf

There’s nothing unions do (that isn’t market distorting and economy killing) that wouldn’t effectively be handled by a free market.

Nothing.


28 posted on 09/14/2011 8:30:39 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: Graewoulf

The problem is that banning unions is quasi-constitutional at best. Frank and Bob have the legal right to tell their mutual employer that they want XYZ and if they don’t get it, they’re both going to quit. Frank and Bob have the constitutional rights to assemble and freely associate, and they second they decide to approach the boss in a unified fashion, they’ve become a union.


29 posted on 09/14/2011 8:32:31 AM PDT by Melas (u)
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To: 9YearLurker

—There’s nothing unions do (that isn’t market distorting and economy killing) that wouldn’t effectively be handled by a free market.—

What about a company that has 100 unskilled labor postions ant 300 people showing up for those jobs every day. Why pay more than a few dollars an hour, in cash, at the end of the day, and rehire whoever you need the following day.

Of course, those who toe the line best and work their fingers to the bone to the point of risking their health are the ones that will be hired tomorrow.

That is a “free” market.


30 posted on 09/14/2011 8:34:07 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: 9YearLurker

On a side note, I cannot believe I am sounding like I support unions. I don’t. At least not in their current form. I’ve been anti-union my entire adult life, even when I had to belong to them.

But I have a sense of history and know why they were necessary and, if abolished along with all labor laws (which I abhor even more), would be just as necessary as they were the first time.

I’m for limited unions. Their power can easily be limited through right to work laws and other actual “freedom enhancing” laws for the very workers the unions want to represent.


31 posted on 09/14/2011 8:36:31 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: PENANCE

—In America you do not have a RIGHT to a job.—

Yes. I know. When I talk of “right to work” I am talking about what it actually means in places like NC, where the NLRB is trying to get Boeing to go back to Washington.

I feel about unions the way our founding fathers felt about government.


32 posted on 09/14/2011 8:38:57 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: PENANCE

—Unions are NOT organized labor, they are organized crime (e.g. theft, extortion, assault, battery, etc.); and they have been since their inception.—

Unions are like businesses. And big labor is like big business.

There are good ones and bad ones and downright evil ones.


33 posted on 09/14/2011 8:40:05 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: cuban leaf

And for the 80+% of American business that isn’t unionized now?

Per usual, government legislated against practices (that is, legislated to give unions special protections) at the time that they were becoming unacceptable in the world generally.

Same goes with civil rights, child labor, etc.. Most legislation just documents when the bulk of society had swung to make practices acceptable or not acceptable—and so were changing anyway.

Legislation rarely leads, it quite reliably follows.


34 posted on 09/14/2011 8:42:00 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: PENANCE

—Unions are NOT organized labor, they are organized crime (e.g. theft, extortion, assault, battery, etc.); and they have been since their inception.—

My uncle was a very high up muckymuck of a union back in the day (the people he represented worked on those monolythic towers that bring power from dams). He and I would get into very heated arguments about unions. That said, I NEVER questioned his strong moral standards and desire do do the best by his men. He was also a ridiculously hard worker. He’s still alive (in his early 80’s) living in an RV park with a very comfortable retirement that he got by buying a few homes and doing all the work himself to improve them and then sell.

Frankly, he was the hardest worker I ever met. We strongly disagreed about unions, but I also strongly respected his opinion and motives.

Like everything else in this country, many (but not all) unions have become so bloated with power and are so controlled by people who are only looking out for number one that they are a serious problem. It was not “always” that way and still isn’t for some unions, though they may be in a tiny minority by now.


35 posted on 09/14/2011 8:45:42 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: Graewoulf
How long before the Obama administration unionizes (or attempts to unionize) America's armed forces?

That is the only way he will be able to force enough people into unions to save them from extinction.

Wall Street Insider: President Obama’s Plan To Unionize The American Military

A longtime Wall Street insider shares their personal views about President Barack Obama – including shocking details of a meeting that left many in attendance wondering what, if anything, the president understands about the American economy – as well as Barack Obama’s desire to unionize the American military.

(Read more: http://newsflavor.com/politics/us-politics/wall-street-insider-the-complete-interview/#ixzz1XwRiJqJI)


36 posted on 09/14/2011 8:48:19 AM PDT by Iron Munro (Muslims who advocate, support, or carry out Jihad give the other 1% a bad name)
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To: SoCal Pubbie

—Do the conditions to which you refer still exist in non union companies today?—

Nope. And it is because of the existence of unions and all the repressive laws protecting workers to the point that it is almost impossible to fire anyone who righteously deservers it.

Did you know the sales tax in Vancouver Washington is the lowest in the state. It is because they have to keep people from crossing the bridge to shop in Oregon, where there is no sales tax.

To be blunt, I think unions are bad, but I think the government laws are worse.


37 posted on 09/14/2011 8:50:28 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: Steamburg

—Worker and Trade associations were communist ideas, —

Shhhh. Don’t tell any one, but the early Christian church was communist. Voluntarily, of course. That didn’t last long though, people being people - even Christian people. ;->


38 posted on 09/14/2011 8:52:40 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: Iron Munro

—How long before the Obama administration unionizes (or attempts to unionize) America’s armed forces? —

Can you imagine the guys about to hit Omaha beach going on strike for “better working conditions and/or pay”.

Why is anyone still talking about taht zero. He has officially jumped the shark. We should be more worried about who the dems will put up to run against the pubs in 2012. It certainly will not be him.


39 posted on 09/14/2011 8:56:46 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: Graewoulf

Necessary Evil

The freedom to form a union and enter into collective bargaining is a necessary counterbalance. Just look to their origins during the Industrial Revolution. Outlaw them completely and prepare to be reintroduced to the reasons they were needed. Give them too much power and discover they are no better than the Mill Owners were.


40 posted on 09/14/2011 8:57:47 AM PDT by The_Repugnant_Conservative
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To: cuban leaf
Unions are like businesses. And big labor is like big business. There are good ones and bad ones and downright evil ones. I disagree on each point.

As to your uncle, I never said he was lazy. And I'm sure his motives were pure; but, then, whose aren't. The road to Hell is paved with ... .

Believing that you are doing right is not a justification for doing wrong.

Employment is a CONTRACT between employer and employee. Workers have every right to join together to bargain the terms of that contract as a group. What they do NOT have a right to do is restrain the employer from contracting with someone else, to intimidate non-union workers who wish to replace them, or to demand that every employee and prospective employee join the union. If unions had not done every one of those things, they would have disappeared in short order.

41 posted on 09/14/2011 9:11:57 AM PDT by PENANCE
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To: Graewoulf

To everyone who whines about “jobs gone overseas”, you can thank, among other things, unions. Decade after decade of union demands and “activity” drove the costs of being competitive in the USA and world markets over the edge for many businesses. Their choices were bankruptcy or set up business elsewhere.

Pro-union types point to the millions of workers over those many decades who lived to a higher standard of living even though they may have had little or no education. Well, that was great for them, but we’re paying the piper now. There is no free lunch.

State and Federal government unions are an abomination and should be eliminated YESTERDAY. (NEA, that means YOU!)


42 posted on 09/14/2011 9:21:19 AM PDT by Zman516
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To: chris37

I think you are forgetting that little thing known as freedom of association. While I dislike most unions, much like I dislike their “speech,” they are protected.


43 posted on 09/14/2011 9:22:28 AM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: PENANCE

—As to your uncle, I never said he was lazy. And I’m sure his motives were pure; but, then, whose aren’t. The road to Hell is paved with ...—

He put them into practice. I was arguing the point that not all “big labor” is only out to make big labor richer.

I’ll add another story: One of my adult kids was working for a company as a union driver. The company was taken over by the owner’s son who had no business sense whatsoever. The new owner watched my kid do his job one day and then fired him for attempting to rip off the company. Now, my son was one of the hardest workers there and was doing what they all HAD to do because of a lack of equipment. And the original owner gave them permission to do it. Also, this “method” only gave “opportunity” to steal (and then really only limited). IOW, he was fired for doing his job in a way that, had the new boss not been there, he theoretically COULD HAVE stolen something.

He was fired, pure and simple, and the new owner was done with it as far as he was concerned. Well, the union got involved and asked to see his employment record. The file was brought out and, for effect, the union guy let it flop open in front of everyone to see the contents fall out. Except there were NO contents. The union guy said, “What the fu** is going on here.

The epilogue: My son got a fairly large settlement from the company without even threatening a lawsuit and now owns his own business competing with them. It’s been almost two years and he has outpaced their business, gotten “awards” from the supplier for the sheer quantity of businesss, is happy to hire his own union drivers and life is great.

The union was actually there for him, believe it or not.

I’m sort of annoyed by both the right and left removing all humanity from the other side. Being a man, I know the heart of man. Even that union thug that embarrassed himself on that now infamous youtube video is just a human being like the rest of us. Sure, I LOVED that he and his got exposed for what they are, but I suspect he has VERY poor interpersonal skills and was very stressed over what would happen to him after the trashing they did at Longview (and with that video he sealed his own fate). But he’s not Ted Bundy or Hitler, and we don’t know just how violent he would have gotten.

Unions have, for the most part, gotten out of hand. I think they could be shrunk to 5% of what they are now and still serve their purpose. But they are peopled by the same sinners that people all sorts of jobs at cubicles and retail spaces all over the country. And plenty of them go to church.

So where does that leave us? For me, it leaves me here: I treat every one and every organization on a case by case bases. After some exposure to them I will probably lump them in with one “group” or another, but my first step is to give them the benefit of the doubt and make sure they are judged by my solely on their own actions and not the actions of anyone else.

Side note: In the video I mentioned, did you notice at eh end a couple of other guys were coming out and it looked suspiciously that they were either gonna bring him in or help him actually bust some heads. We’ll never know which, but something “different” would have happened if the guy had lingerd or given one more verbal threat.


44 posted on 09/14/2011 9:29:00 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: Melas

” - - - The problem is that banning unions is quasi-constitutional at best. - - - “

If what you say is true, then did President Reagan do something Un-Constitutional when he disbanded the Air Controllers Union ?


45 posted on 09/14/2011 10:04:46 AM PDT by Graewoulf ( obamatrauma"care" violates the 1890 Sherman Anti-Trust Law.)
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To: Graewoulf

Small, in-house unions can be very effective. The International unions, on the other hand, are not formed to defend the rights of workers, they are formed to oppose capitalism. Defending workers is just a side line, an organizing technique.

The founder of the ILWU, the SSA union, was a card carrying communist and nothing much has changed in that regard.

Take a look at the Gateway Terminal that SSA is building in WA State. Gateways are multi-modal transportation projects, part of the UN Agenda 21, involving special economic zones, free trade and redistribution of wealth from developed countries to lesser developed countries. In this case, they want to ship US natural resources and bulk products to Asia, where the jobs will be created. SSA has been looking for a deep water port to use for trade with China in the NAFTA corridor, ever since China started construction on the Mexican port.

Does that sound like something that is good for the American worker?

Oh, I forgot to mention that Patty Murray’s husband is a life-time employee of SSA and that she has written the Infrastructure and transportation portion of Obama’s jobs bill to benefit SSA, CARRIX, Goldman Sachs and Warren Buffet.


46 posted on 09/14/2011 10:09:29 AM PDT by Eva
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To: cuban leaf
Then your earlier post about reading history re: unions is inoperative. High button shoes and celluloid collars were around back then too, but they aren't coming back either, unions or no.
47 posted on 09/14/2011 11:02:08 AM PDT by SoCal Pubbie
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To: cuban leaf

There is a huge difference between voluntarily sharing a common interest and creating an organization to replace one tyrant with another.

Many utopian societies looked at communism and eventually rejected it. Trade Unions of the 20th Century, drew heavily on input and funding from the Soviet Communists. Workers of the World kind of sums it up.


48 posted on 09/14/2011 11:21:33 AM PDT by Steamburg (The contents of your wallet is the only language Politicians understand.)
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To: cuban leaf
People who want to abolish labor unions really need to read a bit of history about the world before they existed and what prompted their creation.

Thanks for the advice, newb.

Hmmm, study history...Never...thought..of that.

49 posted on 09/14/2011 11:30:15 AM PDT by Trailerpark Badass
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To: SoCal Pubbie

Oh, I definitely think the world in which unions came into existence in the US is long gone. That is why I’d like to see their power diminished to about 5% of what it was at its peak in this country. But I also think the whole western civilization is about to hit the reset button. Then all bets are off.

BTW, quit dissin’ my celuloid collars!


50 posted on 09/14/2011 12:03:05 PM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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