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The European dream lies in ruins (Must Read)
The Telegraph ^ | 9/17/2011 | Janet Daley

Posted on 09/18/2011 9:55:37 AM PDT by mojito

I have to say that even in my most apocalyptic Eurosceptic moments – when I had moved on from thinking the federalist project simply preposterous to believing that it was criminal folly – I never anticipated this. What I expected was growing disillusionment followed by an almost imperceptible unwinding which would be finessed with political double-talk and diplomatic duplicity. The implosion would come, but it would be with a whimper, not a bang. Faces would be saved and enormous numbers of lies would be told, and somehow the thing would be brought to an end – or made so vestigial that it would no longer matter.

Well, so much for that idea. This is going to be huge: so cataclysmic that it may summon up forms of ugliness that we have not seen walking abroad in Western Europe for half a century.

(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Editorial; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: eu; eurabia; europeanunion; gloriesofsocialism; rulingclass; socialism
Great analysis. Europe must choose to either preserve democratic sovereign states, or adopt a supra-national oligarchic conglomeration that is essentially napoleonic in its inspiration and origins.

Can you guess which option the 0bama gang is siding with?

1 posted on 09/18/2011 9:55:43 AM PDT by mojito
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To: mojito

The European dream? I didn’t know there WAS any such thing as the European dream, other than “to have government spoon food into my mouth, and wipe my butt for me when it comes out.” The only reason I don’t hope Europeans all turn on each other and start a bloody war that leaves the entire continent in shambles is because I’m afraid a lot of cats and dogs would get hurt in the process. And some pretty old churches and museums. But modern-day Europeans are useless creatures as far as I can see. But I’m cranky today, it must be confessed.


2 posted on 09/18/2011 10:02:05 AM PDT by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
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To: mojito
It doesn't lie in ruins. This is exactly what the elites wanted; chaos so they could impose their "new order" (what, another one?) They admitted as much when the euro first came out.
3 posted on 09/18/2011 10:05:47 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: A_perfect_lady
I didn’t know there WAS any such thing as the European dream

There are three European dreams, actually, and they come in colors: Red, Black, and Brown.

It is Europeans' persisting and inexplicable fidelity to those dreams that has murdered more than 100 million people since 1789.

4 posted on 09/18/2011 10:06:57 AM PDT by Jim Noble (To live peacefully with credit-based consumption and fiat money, men would have to be angels.)
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To: mojito

anyone who thinks the union is doomed is laboring under the illusion that people have a choice about their government.


5 posted on 09/18/2011 10:07:01 AM PDT by the invisib1e hand (...then they came for the guitars, and we kicked their sorry faggot asses into the dust)
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To: mojito

Dream? It was a nightmare from the beginning. They just didn’t realize it.


6 posted on 09/18/2011 10:12:44 AM PDT by all the best
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To: mojito

bttt


7 posted on 09/18/2011 10:13:36 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Liberalism is socialism in its larval form.)
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To: Jim Noble

Good post.


8 posted on 09/18/2011 10:19:07 AM PDT by arkady_renko
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To: Jim Noble

Fantastic post!!!


9 posted on 09/18/2011 10:26:32 AM PDT by GOPsterinMA (Why?)
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To: Jim Noble
There are three European dreams, actually, and they come in colors: Red, Black, and Brown.

I'm sorry, that allusion sailed clear over my head.

Can you elaborate on that, please?

Cheers!

10 posted on 09/18/2011 10:28:07 AM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: Jim Noble; A_perfect_lady
There are three European dreams, actually, and they come in colors: Red, Black, and Brown.

I feel sheepish asking, but what do those colors represent? Socialism/Communism, Anarchy, and Facism?

11 posted on 09/18/2011 10:28:31 AM PDT by thecodont
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To: mojito
First, there is no Europe without the German People and German money.

And, the German People are adamant they will not fund more bailouts. (I say good for them).

The real risk here is not that "Europe" will continue to limp along without the bailouts, even losing a few countries to BK and banishment, but that the internal and external pressures on Germany will cause the German government to saddle the German people with more debt not their own.

Near as I remember, Germany has recently paid all their WWII debts and have been carrying huge debt burden since the end of the war...and since the end of the war before that.

Does ANYONE really think it's a good idea to IMPOSE additional debt on the German people so that Greek and Italian workers can take 6-8 weeks of vacation a year and retire when they are 50?

If "democracy" cannot keep it's promise to the German people, that it will do their will, will democracy survive in Germany?

No, it will not. Rightfully so.

12 posted on 09/18/2011 10:30:58 AM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: mojito

Nothing would unite them so much as a common enemy.

Their Muslim invaders - breeding and agitating their way towards a unified Sharia Law Euro-State - would seem the most logical option, but Europe’s enlightened leaders would then need to jetison even further, even more cherished, sacred cows to get to that point.

Won’t happen. They’ll dither. They’ll fight each other. They’ll become converts, dimmis, or corpses - for which they’ve been practicing all along.


13 posted on 09/18/2011 10:35:08 AM PDT by dagogo redux (A whiff of primitive spirits in the air, harbingers of an impending descent into the feral.)
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To: mojito
The European federal dream was devised by its architects to be a definitive repudiation of the ideological conflicts of the 20th century. Pragmatism, consensus and regard for the greater supra-national good would reign where once wicked nationalism and zealotry had prevailed.

Voegelin spoke of immanentizing the eschaton -- creating Heaven on Earth.

Bad things happen when people try to do this.

14 posted on 09/18/2011 10:37:53 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy (The USSR spent itself into bankruptcy and collapsed -- and aren't we on the same path now?)
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To: the invisib1e hand

Ping


15 posted on 09/18/2011 10:41:06 AM PDT by Jack Black ( Whatever is left of American patriotism is now identical with counter-revolution.)
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To: A_perfect_lady

No problem.

We can send American cats and dogs to colonize the wreckage.


16 posted on 09/18/2011 10:43:11 AM PDT by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: the invisib1e hand
anyone who thinks the union is doomed is laboring under the illusion that people have a choice about their government.

I agree with your assessment. Once so much power is consolidated at such a high level it is never relinquished without a long struggle and/or blood in the streets.

It amazes me that more people do not see (or accept) the similarities between the tyranny of the EU and what has, and is, happening right here in the USA.

This is Europa and Oceana in the twenty first century.

The EU government organizations are killing the individuality, character and Independence of the European countries just as our federal government has usurped the autonomy and constitutional powers of our states.

You might say that our federal government Royalty has shown the EU Masters the way to subvert individual rights to the putative good of the collective.


17 posted on 09/18/2011 10:45:16 AM PDT by Iron Munro (Muslims who advocate, support, or carry out Jihad give the other 1% a bad name)
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To: mojito
Have recently found Janet Daley and find her dead on with her analysis.
Her column on the incapability of Progressive Socialism and Capitalism was exactly correct for Europe and the US.
Capitalism has paid the freight and now has been drained by the Socialist State and it's spending needs along with a shift in the demographics on who is left to pay.
The Mathematics of the situation is very clear except to the politicians who can't seem to understand basic math and economics along with a lot of people who still think the Fairy Tale can continue. It Can't!
We are rapidly moving toward an endgame that will not end well for anyone.
18 posted on 09/18/2011 10:53:01 AM PDT by Captain Peter Blood
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To: mojito

Just imagine how bad off Europe would be if they had to pay and provide for their own defense?


19 posted on 09/18/2011 10:56:55 AM PDT by SamAdams76 (All my replies get posted to AttackWatch)
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To: mojito
So the choice is between abandoning the democratic principle which holds that the legitimacy of government derives from the consent of the governed, or backing down on the commitment to the euro and all the strictures that go with it. We know which side of this argument our Government has chosen.

It all comes down to who buys the food, shelter, power, and gadgets that keep modern urban life livable. Once people have built tools that replace labor, what labor is there to do other than maintenance, service, and entertainment of those who OWN the means of production? There can only be so many toolmakers and the German middle class is holding much of that role. Yet as anyone who has seen IT go to India knows, that's only temporary.

Hence, once labor-saving tools and processes were exported to a slave army in China, the Western "working class" largely became superfluous. Once the Chinese come up to speed on toolmaking, so will go the middle class jobs as well. That massive government regulations only made domestic production less competitive only accelerated the process.

This is what cuts to heart of the justification for the bureaucratic state. Regulations exist to mitigate risks otherwise born or managed by the insurers of producers. When we export the production to a "come and get me" producer in China, they not only enjoy the margin of slave labor, they avoid all responsibility for the externalities of production, hazards of use, legal, or environmental. The Chinese are quite apparently willing to adsorb those costs, for now.

OTOH the bureaucratic state is inherently less efficient in managing those risks than a competitive insurance industry, never mind more corrupt. So as long as we socialize those risks because of our outrageous legal overhead and the constant temptation of corruption, SOMEBODY will take advantage of that disparity in costs of production.

IMO, the only way to fix this is to return risk management to the marketplace. That means tort reform and insurance deregulation in a big way.

20 posted on 09/18/2011 11:08:00 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (GunWalker: Arming "a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as well funded")
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: Iron Munro

“Once so much power is consolidated at such a high level it is never relinquished without a long struggle and/or blood in the streets.”

Absolutely true.

But what does your statement imply for the future of the _U.S.A._, as well?

Just wonderin’...


22 posted on 09/18/2011 11:17:06 AM PDT by Grumplestiltskin (I may look new, but it's only deja vu!)
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To: mojito

Must read:
http://www.webscription.net/p-748-caliphate.aspx

if you read the free chapters at the link you will go for the rest and be glad you did!


23 posted on 09/18/2011 11:18:58 AM PDT by Uriah_lost (Is there no balm in Gilead?....MiE (Mainer in Exile))
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To: mojito

I liked it until “Is it beyond the bounds of imagination that we might see the Muslim minorities become the Jews of the 21st century?”

Spare me.


24 posted on 09/18/2011 11:34:22 AM PDT by fanfan (Why did they bury Barry's past?)
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To: Iron Munro
You might appreciate something I recently discovered...posted here. Pay attention to the part about "EUSSR: The Soviet Roots of European Integration".
25 posted on 09/18/2011 11:35:35 AM PDT by the invisib1e hand (...then they came for the guitars, and we kicked their sorry faggot asses into the dust)
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To: grey_whiskers
Can you elaborate on that, please?


26 posted on 09/18/2011 11:38:48 AM PDT by Jim Noble (To live peacefully with credit-based consumption and fiat money, men would have to be angels.)
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To: Mariner

“Does ANYONE really think it’s a good idea to IMPOSE additional debt on the German people so that Greek and Italian workers can take 6-8 weeks of vacation a year and retire when they are 50?”

Does ANYONE really think it’s a good idea to IMPOSE additional debt on the AMERICAN people so that GOVERNMENT workers can take 6-8 weeks of vacation a year and retire when they are 50?

Think and act locally. Government entities near you, cities, school districts, counties and states face this issue.

Entitlements are one thing, and government pay, benefits and pensions are another.

I see the fact Americans are going to be asked to work longer (or until they die or cannot work), so government workers can retire as fat cats at 50 or 55.


27 posted on 09/18/2011 11:50:43 AM PDT by truth_seeker (is)
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To: fanfan

You’re right. It’s a foolish comment that somewhat mars a generally excellent analysis.


28 posted on 09/18/2011 11:54:04 AM PDT by mojito
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To: mojito; fanfan
My long standing belief is that if ethnic cleansing comes to Europe in the near future, the Muslims will suffer greatly.
And if ethnic cleansing comes to Europe a bit later than that, the Europeans will suffer greatly.
29 posted on 09/18/2011 12:08:40 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy (The USSR spent itself into bankruptcy and collapsed -- and aren't we on the same path now?)
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To: dagogo redux

The establishment of the EU is based on a socialist ideology.

As such, just like past and present socialist/communist ideologies (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and now Obama) the first enemy of socialism, Christianity, will have to be removed by whatever means available.

That is the reason that Islam is getting a free reign in Europe and the US.


30 posted on 09/18/2011 12:40:10 PM PDT by 353FMG (Liberalism is Satan's handiwork.)
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To: mojito
"Europe must choose to either preserve democratic sovereign states, or adopt a supra-national oligarchic conglomeration that is essentially napoleonic in its inspiration and origins."

Might I suggest an anarcho-syndicalist commune. Taken in turns to sort of act as a sort of executive officer for the week. But all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major international matters.

31 posted on 09/18/2011 12:40:36 PM PDT by AndrewB (FUBO)
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To: truth_seeker
"Does ANYONE really think it’s a good idea to IMPOSE additional debt on the AMERICAN people so that GOVERNMENT workers can take 6-8 weeks of vacation a year and retire when they are 50?"

That is the precise analogy I intended.

There's a world-wide competition between the productive class and the parasite class. Only the "Social Contract" in the various countries and between countries keeps the lid on things.

When the parasite class holds the reigns of power, and they cannot be dislodged by political means, it is INEVITABLE that the productive class...who controls all of the REAL MEANS, dislodge them by force.

Here's another way to look at it: The class of people who traditionally hold all power...the monied land owners and merchants of the mid-1700's in America decided to be magnanimous and allow a far greater number of people to participate in state decisions. They also constructed a legal framework that would protect all, equally (granted, they did not address slavery or womens' rights). It was the greatest distribution of state power in the history of man.

In exchange for that transfer they got the Bill of Rights and a Constitutionally limited government.

A Republic based in Law.

With the (d)emocratic changes that have emerged over the last 150 years along with the wholesale disregard for the Law and Constitution, who could blame those traditional power holders for abolishing the USA "Social Contract" due to Breach of Contract?

Those traditional holders of power are productive males who own property.

There's about 50 million of them in the USA. And, they CARRY EVERYONE ELSE.

32 posted on 09/18/2011 1:03:37 PM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: Mariner

How very un-PC of you! Absolutely correct though.


33 posted on 09/18/2011 1:19:14 PM PDT by Chuckster (The longer I live the less I care about what you think.)
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To: the invisib1e hand

Ominous!

Thanks for the link.


34 posted on 09/18/2011 2:37:04 PM PDT by Iron Munro (Muslims who advocate, support, or carry out Jihad give the other 1% a bad name)
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To: ClearCase_guy; mojito
My long standing belief is that if ethnic cleansing comes to Europe in the near future, the Muslims will suffer greatly.
And if ethnic cleansing comes to Europe a bit later than that, the Europeans will suffer greatly.

This is our chance to determine what the natural order of things should be. Our children will thank us if we decide right.

35 posted on 09/18/2011 2:40:43 PM PDT by fanfan (Why did they bury Barry's past?)
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To: Carry_Okie

Well said!


36 posted on 09/18/2011 2:56:17 PM PDT by Moltke (Always retaliate first.)
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To: Moltke
Devolving regulatory government the subject of my first book: Natural Process: That Environmental Laws May Serve the Laws of Nature
37 posted on 09/18/2011 3:06:26 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (GunWalker: Arming "a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as well funded")
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To: AndrewB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOOTKA0aGI0

such a classic.


38 posted on 09/18/2011 4:20:28 PM PDT by Eyes Unclouded ("The word bipartisan means some larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." -George Carlin)
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To: mojito

It looks like, once again, a Balkan nation (Greece) screws it up for the rest of Europe.

Things would be much better if the Balkans, as a group, were run by more responsible nations.


39 posted on 09/19/2011 1:32:56 AM PDT by gogogodzilla (Live free or die!)
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To: Jim Noble
There are three European dreams, actually, and they come in colors: Red, Black, and Brown.

Well said. *VERY* well said... an it bears repeating.

40 posted on 09/19/2011 1:35:03 AM PDT by gogogodzilla (Live free or die!)
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To: mojito

You know, I only first saw a Janet Daly piece here at FR a few weeks ago and I am thoroughly impressed by this woman. She is a terrific thinker and writer. If you have a ping list for her columns, kindly add me to it.


41 posted on 09/19/2011 1:36:26 AM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: mojito

Oops, I misspelled her name - it’s Daley, with an ‘e’.

Anyway, here is a page with links to many of her recent columns, several of which I read and heartily recommend. (especially the August 6th column).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/janetdaley/


42 posted on 09/19/2011 1:41:38 AM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: gogogodzilla
Things would be much better if the Balkans, as a group, were run by more responsible nations

That's true, and it goes double for Arabia. And can you imagine if all Islam had to answer to one spiritual and temporal authority?

Wait! I have an idea!


43 posted on 09/19/2011 4:23:38 AM PDT by Jim Noble (To live peacefully with credit-based consumption and fiat money, men would have to be angels.)
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To: mojito

I would hope that European and American leaders have read their history...and recognize the utter foolishness of saddling Germany with OTHERS debt. They nearly destroyed the world with their own debts the last time around.


44 posted on 09/19/2011 4:30:24 AM PDT by mo
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To: Lancey Howard

I don’t have a ping list for Janet Daley, although I do often read her columns and post them on occasion.

The Telegraph has a number of columnists who are excellent and whom I read regularly.


45 posted on 09/19/2011 8:28:20 AM PDT by mojito
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