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California City Fines Couple for Holding Bible Study in Their Home (San Juan Capistrano)
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/california-city-fines-couple-for-holding-bible-study-in-their-home/comment-page-4/#comment-1885837 ^ | 9/19/2011

Posted on 09/19/2011 5:47:13 AM PDT by Beckett08

A southern California couple has been fined $300 dollars for holding Christian Bible study sessions in their home, and could face another $500 for each additional gathering.

City officials in San Juan Capistrano, Calif. say Chuck and Stephanie Fromm are in violation of municipal code 9-3.301, which prohibits “religious, fraternal or non-profit” organizations in residential neighborhoods without a permit. Stephanie hosts a Wednesday Bible study that draws about 20 attendees, and Chuck holds a Sunday service that gets about 50.

(Excerpt) Read more at theblaze.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: California
KEYWORDS: 1stamendment; antichristianbigotry; freespeech; obama; religion; religiousliberty; religiouspersecution

1 posted on 09/19/2011 5:47:24 AM PDT by Beckett08
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To: Beckett08

Gee, just had one here late last week, at my home. Come on boys and bother me about that and learn what the second amendment is all about.


2 posted on 09/19/2011 5:52:30 AM PDT by Mouton (Voting is an opiate of the electorate. Nothing changes no matter who wins..)
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To: Beckett08
See too, http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2780264/posts
3 posted on 09/19/2011 5:52:40 AM PDT by Cboldt
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To: Beckett08

So how many times have the dumbocraps been fined for holding those ‘Kill Bush’ parties and the ‘Vote for Obama’ gatherings?

Any record of that? Didn’t think so.


4 posted on 09/19/2011 5:53:24 AM PDT by Cowgirl of Justice
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To: Mouton

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof... ”


5 posted on 09/19/2011 5:55:06 AM PDT by Beckett08 ("My Jihad means 'My Struggle' So does "Mein Kampf.")
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To: Mouton

” Gee, just had one here late last week, at my home. Come on boys and bother me about that and learn what the second amendment is all about.”

We have one every tuesday night. Steve would be the wrong guy to pester : )


6 posted on 09/19/2011 5:55:46 AM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)
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To: Beckett08

What about Muslims who block streets to pray?


7 posted on 09/19/2011 5:56:30 AM PDT by luvbach1 (Stop the destruction in 2012 or continue the decline)
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To: Beckett08

Can you hold a tupperware party at your house? Can you entertain frequently at your house? I’m not a lawyer, but I would say this is a case of “viewpoint discrimination.”

Towns have tried this in the past and have lost in court.


8 posted on 09/19/2011 5:58:01 AM PDT by goldi (')
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To: Beckett08
Unbelievable!

Hardly unexpected, though. Once they've firmly established the "No religion on public property," they can now move on to their next, true goal...Just straight up "No religion."

God help us.

9 posted on 09/19/2011 5:58:08 AM PDT by NakedRampage (Fortis cadere, cedere non potest (A brave man may fall, but he cannot yield))
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To: Beckett08

Just have everybody arrive in a burqa. Problem solved.


10 posted on 09/19/2011 5:59:25 AM PDT by all the best
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To: Mouton

” Gee, just had one here late last week, at my home. Come on boys and bother me about that and learn what the second amendment is all about.”

We have one every tuesday night. Steve would be the wrong guy to pester : )


11 posted on 09/19/2011 6:01:32 AM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)
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To: Beckett08

Congress didn’t. The city did.

That’s the area served by Saddleback Church, among others. There are thousands of small groups that meet regularly there. Does SJC intend to hunt them all down?


12 posted on 09/19/2011 6:22:32 AM PDT by SandyInSeattle (When life gives you lemons, throw them back and demand chocolate.)
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To: stephenjohnbanker

They can not stop 100 illegal aliens from gathering on the streets but they care stopping Bible Studies on Private Property??


13 posted on 09/19/2011 6:24:28 AM PDT by Beckett08 ("My Jihad means 'My Struggle' So does "Mein Kampf.")
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To: Beckett08

He’s on solid ground here about being able to hold a Bible study in their home.

But...

Isn’t there a line in the Bible about avoiding going before a judge (forget the verse) that would apply here?

Did they even make an attempt to obtain a permit? Sure, maybe they don’t have to from a Constitutional standpoint, but did the form the church to make a political point, or to worship God?

Why not just get the permit, and move on with the services? Why put themselves at odd with the state, when the point they are trying to make (from a Biblical perspective) is so trivial?


14 posted on 09/19/2011 6:24:58 AM PDT by Brookhaven
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To: Beckett08

This is likely a parking issue. The neighbors probably got fed up with the traffic and complained. That’s a very large group for a bible study.


15 posted on 09/19/2011 6:25:12 AM PDT by SandyInSeattle (When life gives you lemons, throw them back and demand chocolate.)
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To: all the best

Just have everybody arrive in a burqa. Problem solved.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Not sure how old the ordinance is but maybe they tried this kind of gathering (burqa wearers) and a law was passed to stop it and this recent group was just caught up in the unintended consequence part of it?

Of course when ‘Madeline Murray’ is your next door neighbor and you park on her grass or block her driveway for your activities she just retaliates.


16 posted on 09/19/2011 6:28:46 AM PDT by xrmusn ((6/98) If govt involved, the more outlandish a scheme appears, the truer it probably is.)
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To: Beckett08
This is a Supreme Court 1st Amendment case...

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Go to court and counter sue the city... you'll win.

17 posted on 09/19/2011 6:30:38 AM PDT by dps.inspect (the system is rigged...)
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To: SandyInSeattle

They can not stop 100 illegal aliens from gathering on the streets but they are stopping Bible Studies on Private Property?

We need to give the day laborers Bibles and get them to pray!


18 posted on 09/19/2011 6:30:54 AM PDT by Beckett08 ("My Jihad means 'My Struggle' So does "Mein Kampf.")
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To: Beckett08

Two completely different issues.

It really bothers me to pass by groups of men just hanging around in parking lots, but they aren’t blocking my driveway or infringing on my living space. I can avoid them if I choose to.

If my neighbor has 50 people over every Sunday or 20 people over every Thursday, that’s a problem.


19 posted on 09/19/2011 6:37:13 AM PDT by SandyInSeattle (When life gives you lemons, throw them back and demand chocolate.)
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To: Brookhaven

Are you kidding...a permit to have friends over to your home to talk about god!!!


20 posted on 09/19/2011 6:48:02 AM PDT by ontap
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To: SandyInSeattle
You're missing the point , if the reason for the meeting was religious based there would be no violation. In other words if they were having a Tupperware party every week, no problem!!
21 posted on 09/19/2011 6:51:11 AM PDT by ontap
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To: Beckett08

Someone needs to turn that into rallying cry.


22 posted on 09/19/2011 6:56:50 AM PDT by LevinFan
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To: Brookhaven

I’m betting the permit costs big bucks for one thing. We also need to stand up for our rights. Even Paul when attacked for his faith still claimed his rights as a Roman citizen.
Parking was likely the issue though, which would be giving offense to your neighbors.


23 posted on 09/19/2011 7:06:48 AM PDT by LevinFan
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To: Beckett08

California proudly standing against both free exercise and assembly.


24 posted on 09/19/2011 7:11:13 AM PDT by Nova442
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To: LevinFan

I’m certainly not opposed to church’s standing up for their rights. Years ago I was a member of a start-up church that found space in a warehouse to meet, rented it, and started converting it to a church. The city not only refused to permit the church, they activly tried to shut it down, because the warehouse area wasn’t zoned for churches. We took it to cout and won.

The point is though, we tried to go through the regular channels first.


25 posted on 09/19/2011 7:14:21 AM PDT by Brookhaven
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To: ontap; SandyInSeattle
Yes, there would be a problem with a weekly Tupperware party too. This is a residential neighborhood which most likely already has restrictions about running a business out of your home.

I suspect most people don't mind a neighbor having an occasional get-together for some friends or fellow believers, but when a neighborhood's streets are regularly filled up with parked vehicles that cause inconvenience to the residents and hamper passage of emergency vehicles there's a problem.

26 posted on 09/19/2011 7:23:55 AM PDT by ken in texas (Can't Afford a Tagline... send money.)
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To: SandyInSeattle

This is not a parking issue. These folks have a large home and everyone parks on their property.


27 posted on 09/19/2011 7:33:19 AM PDT by ohioman
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To: ken in texas

While I certainly agree with your premise and would not enjoy this happening in my neighborhood either the fact is constitutional rights are not trumped by someones inconvenience. This is clearly suspect if they decide to challenge it!


28 posted on 09/19/2011 7:34:06 AM PDT by ontap
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To: ohioman

If that’s the case, I would love to know who tipped off the city and why.


29 posted on 09/19/2011 8:05:46 AM PDT by SandyInSeattle (When life gives you lemons, throw them back and demand chocolate.)
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To: Beckett08

While I am not a practicing Christian, I know more than one person who holds such sessions inside their homes.

This is totally wrong.

Who allowed that law to be passed????

Where is separation of church & state???


30 posted on 09/19/2011 8:36:47 AM PDT by ridesthemiles
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To: Brookhaven

Having to obtain a PERMIT to practice your religion is the most slippery of slopes I can think of.

They should not bow down & “Get a Permit”.


31 posted on 09/19/2011 8:38:55 AM PDT by ridesthemiles
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To: Beckett08
Here in West Texas we are encouraged by our church to have small home studies with 10 or so. the problem usually will be all the cars parked in front of the neighbors homes. Most come in their own car. Not pleasing to the neighbors.

A once or twice a year party of 40 or so is okay but watch out if anyone of us is causing any inconvenience to our neighbors.

32 posted on 09/19/2011 8:47:39 AM PDT by geologist (The only answer to the troubles of this life is Jesus. A decision we all must make.)
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To: ontap

A quote from Thomas Jefferson I believe. “Your freedom to wave your fist ends at the beginning of my nose.”

This my be an infringement if it can be proven that this is aimed at Christian groups. But laws to prevent dangerously overcrowded buildings and clogging of streets are simple common sense. Most home groups are 6-10 people. Not 20-50. That’s just being an obnoxious neighbor.
The law needs challenged to make sure this isn’t selective, but law preventing you from abusing your neighbors hardly qualifies on its own as infringing on your right to worship.


33 posted on 09/19/2011 9:44:21 AM PDT by LevinFan
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To: SandyInSeattle
I bet they have an a-hole neighbor who is causing the problem. BTW - You have my sympathy to be a conservative living in the liberal hell that is Seattle. I have a cousin who lives there who went over to the dark side and it makes me sick.
34 posted on 09/19/2011 9:52:01 AM PDT by ohioman
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To: LevinFan

I am reading that a license for small groups of 3 or so, which is rediculous, costs a lot and is difficult to get. That sounds like a poll tax to me.
I can see them blocking turning a house into a church. There are potential safety issues and neighbors, but requiring a license for small groups and making onerous to get, that can easily be seen as attacking Christians.


35 posted on 09/19/2011 10:29:57 AM PDT by LevinFan
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To: Beckett08

Freedom of Assembly and Freedom of Religion be damned.


36 posted on 09/19/2011 10:38:58 AM PDT by laweeks
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To: LevinFan
According to the Dispatch, the Fromms live in a neighborhood with large homes and have a corral, barn, pool and huge back lawn on their property, so parking and noise aren't’ a problem. “There’s no singing or music,” Stephanie said. “It’s meditative.”

Sorry but your reasoning does not fit the article, this is heavy handed bureaucrats wielding power over property owners.

37 posted on 09/19/2011 10:40:08 AM PDT by ontap
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To: ken in texas

see #37


38 posted on 09/19/2011 10:44:24 AM PDT by ontap
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To: ontap
Thanks for the ping.

The size of the property might mitigate some of the parking and inconvenience issues. However, were these zoning restrictions in effect at the time of the purchase or construction of the home?

I'm all for the free exercise of one's religion, but we are also supposed to abide by the law, and that includes the zoning laws we don't like. If an aspect of the zoning law is wrong, get it changed.

39 posted on 09/19/2011 11:25:48 AM PDT by ken in texas (Can't Afford a Tagline... send money.)
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