Posted on 09/19/2011 11:04:53 AM PDT by Do Not Make Fun Of His Ears
A southern California couple has been fined $300 dollars for holding Christian Bible study sessions in their home, and could face another $500 for each additional gathering.
City officials in San Juan Capistrano, Calif. say Chuck and Stephanie Fromm are in violation of municipal code 9-3.301, which prohibits “religious, fraternal or non-profit” organizations in residential neighborhoods without a permit. Stephanie hosts a Wednesday Bible study that draws about 20 attendees, and Chuck holds a Sunday service that gets about 50.
The Fromms appealed their citations but were denied and warned future sessions would carry heftier penalties. A statement from the Pacific Justice Institute, which is defending the couple in a lawsuit against the city, said Chuck Fromm was also told regular gatherings of three or more people require a conditional use permit, which can be costly and difficult to obtain.
“How dare they tell us we can’t have whatever we want in our home,” Stephanie Fromm told the Capistrano Dispatch. “We want to be able to use our home. We’ve paid a lot and invested a lot in our home and backyard … I should be able to be hospitable in my home.”
According to the Dispatch, the Fromms live in a neighborhood with large homes and have a corral, barn, pool and huge back lawn on their property, so parking and noise aren’t a problem.
(Excerpt) Read more at theblaze.com ...
I'm not exactly sure why somebody needs a permit to exercise their freedom of religion in their own home.
This is probably why.
Stephanie hosts a Wednesday Bible study that draws about 20 attendees, and Chuck holds a Sunday service that gets about 50.
If it weren’t weekly it probably wouldn’t be so bad.
It is if it affects the quiet enjoyment of another’s property, no matter what you are doing.
Ok, what part of the other family that had this problem last year as I state in my first point do you not get.
This family in this current post is having problems, city is siting use permits.
In the OTHER story about a family, the city sited parking issues.
Two stories, two different reasons.
>>There is nothing in there that prohibits zoning, for one thing. And zoning is essentially based on use and traffic.<<
From the areticle: City officials in San Juan Capistrano, Calif. say Chuck and Stephanie Fromm are in violation of municipal code 9-3.301, which prohibits “religious, fraternal or non-profit” organizations in residential neighborhoods without a permit.
PERIOD.
No mention of size, traffic, etc. Blatantly unconstitutional.
“Then, out of the blue, your new neighbor, who bought the 2 acres next to you, starts holding daily religious services that draw 2,000 people.”
Very weak straw man argument. The article says there are between 20-50 who meet twice a week.
It also mentions that parking and noise were not at issue. So another straw man argument.
“Can you invoke zoning, or does your neighbor’s 1st amendment right trump you?”
Yes, the First Amendment does trump the unconstitutional law against Americans freely meeting in their own homes and practicing their religion.
And history bears it out. This EXACT SAME CRAP was tried 200 years ago, and specifically rejected. Do your homework, study your own country’s history.
That is the essence of America. Amazing that some don’t grasp that.
My bad, I didn’t realize you were talking about a different case.
“How dare they tell us we can’t have whatever we want in our home”
They’re called zoning laws. If you want to change them, fight them. Till then, ignorance is no excuse.
From the article: the Fromms live in a neighborhood with large homes and have a corral, barn, pool and huge back lawn on their property, so parking and noise aren’t a problem.
But in your case, it seems that it is.
Yes, I read that. As for the noise part, at least during the study, I'm pretty sure I agree it's "not a problem," meaning it's not detectable or bothersome to neighbors.
I don't know the details of the parking or traffic flow, but the practice has added 10-20, maybe more cars, coming and going in a tight time window. Most neighbors have no issue with it, but one does, and the code is what it is.
I think the code is too restrictive, with "3" (which is usually not including householders) being the line where a use permit is required, and Fromms can argue that to a judge. The 1st amendment is not going to help them AT ALL. Not any more than the 2nd amendment helped Presser when he said he didn't need a parade permit, because his parade is armed, and requiring a permit offends the 2nd amendment.
Amendment 1: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Well, if previous cases where this sort of thing has been at issue are any indication, actually it will.
…outraged. But if my neighbor was having regular functions that brought 20-50 people (for any reason) to his house, I’d be upset because that would negatively affect the use and enjoyment of my property. (And I’m not a curmudgeon……
From the article: According to the Dispatch, the Fromms live in a neighborhood with large homes and have a corral, barn, pool and huge back lawn on their property, so parking and noise aren’t a problem.Hmmmmmm... either you have not fully read the article or you are indeed a curmudgeon.“There’s no singing or music,” Stephanie said. “It’s meditative.”
>>They’re called zoning laws. If you want to change them, fight them. Till then, ignorance is no excuse.<<
No “zoning law” can prohibit a Bible Study in a private home in America.
Not in America, not under the Constitution.
Because the government is specifically targeting people for what they are SAYING (i.e. “Religious Speech.”)
They could meet for a keg party under this law. But you bring out a Bible, and the hammer comes down.
Garbage.
I agree. This is a home, not a church or business. I wouldn't like it if my neighbors had 50 bikers over every Saturday either.
Seems they are in violation of a city code. Here's an example. You can have a garage sale, you can even have a couple a year, but at least around here you can't do it too often or they make you get a permit. No one wants to live next door to a perpetual yard sale. I thinks its perfectly reasonable.
IIRC, there is another section of the code with definitions, and sizes.
-- Very weak straw man argument. --
The point of the nutty hypothetical was to see if you thought the 1st amendment always trums zoning. You say it does.
-- Do your homework, study your own country's history. --
Thanks for the friendly advice, Ears.
Really? Your'e sure? Seems they would need a place for 20 cars on their property, for that to be so. Even then, I am sure they are not zoned for a church.
Believe the underlying problem is parking. I know of some people who have 3 parking passes that they can hand out. That is it. Other people have a jar that passes are kept for special events. Different jurisdictions different rules.
Really? Your'e sure? Seems they would need a place for 20 cars on their property, for that to be so. Even then, I am sure they are not zoned for a church.
Believe the underlying problem is parking. I know of some people who have 3 parking passes that they can hand out. That is it. Other people have a jar that passes are kept for special events. Different jurisdictions different rules.
It worries me that they were told it was a legal problem and ignored the government which violates Romans 13.
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