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S.A.N.E Vax, INC Supports Bachmann Gardasil/Mental Retardation Charge
AHRP.org ^ | Sept 19, 2011 | Vera Hassner Sharav

Posted on 09/19/2011 11:58:20 AM PDT by To-Whose-Benefit?

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To: editor-surveyor

Oooo. K.

nice talkin to ya.


51 posted on 09/19/2011 8:25:30 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: To-Whose-Benefit?
Or maybe some of us can actually find the full report from the CDC:

Thirty two of the total death reports have been confirmed and 36 remain unconfirmed due to no identifiable patient information in the report such as a name and contact information to confirm the report. A death report is confirmed (verified) after a medical doctor reviews the report and any associated records. In the 32 reports confirmed, there was no unusual pattern or clustering to the deaths that would suggest that they were caused by the vaccine and some reports indicated a cause of death unrelated to vaccination.

Of those 68 deaths, they couldn't even verify 36 of those deaths. Of the 32 deaths they could verify, they explicitly say there were other causes of death in some of those cases. This is nothing but a scare article from an organization that is flatly anti-vaccination.
52 posted on 09/19/2011 8:29:37 PM PDT by DTxAg
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To: editor-surveyor

Bingo!

” he can count on hundreds of millions of dollars worth of support”

I can’t recall the exact number they contributed to him, but wasn’t it a token amount like 6 or $10K?

If so, I’m reminded of the old gag about the guy who offered a gal in a bar a Million to sleep with him, and then kept reducing it till she got flustered and asked him what did he think she was.

And he told her they’d already established What she was, now they were just haggling over the price.


53 posted on 09/19/2011 8:33:32 PM PDT by To-Whose-Benefit? (It is Error alone which needs the support of Government. The Truth can stand by itself.)
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To: DTxAg

OK. Got a link?


54 posted on 09/19/2011 8:39:41 PM PDT by To-Whose-Benefit? (It is Error alone which needs the support of Government. The Truth can stand by itself.)
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To: To-Whose-Benefit?; Carling

Post from the previous thread on S.A.N.E.:

What a silly thread to put in front-page news.

SANE gets destroyed in this lengty post.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/beware-hpv-dna-in-gardasil/


55 posted on 09/19/2011 8:42:28 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: editor-surveyor

You are so right. The way they talk about polio, you would think that American children actually contracted polio and died of polio prior to the vaccine. Instead, it was just a big conspiracy by the CIA, KGB the drug companies, the Bilderbergs and the Trilateral Commission to sicken and conduct mind control experiments.


56 posted on 09/19/2011 9:37:07 PM PDT by trumandogz
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To: D-fendr

Thank you So much for clearing away all the Merck [sic] on this Gardasil nonsense.

I read Mr Gorski’s article with relish.

Have you read This one?

David Gorski’s Financial Pharma Ties: What He Didn’t Tell You

http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/06/david-gorskis-financial-pharma-ties-what-he-didnt-tell-you.html

Gardasil: from the squeaky clean, all we care about is helping people live better, healthier, longer, blah, blah, blah,

Merck Paid 3,468 Death Claims to Resolve Vioxx Suits

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-27/merck-paid-3-468-death-claims-to-resolve-vioxx-suits.html


57 posted on 09/19/2011 9:38:54 PM PDT by To-Whose-Benefit? (It is Error alone which needs the support of Government. The Truth can stand by itself.)
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To: To-Whose-Benefit?

You’re welcome.

Hopefully we won’t see another retread of S.A.N.E.’s bogus science on FR.


58 posted on 09/19/2011 9:43:37 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

You cite this Gorski person as the definitive go to, & the whore’s bread & butter at Wayne State U. is making Vaccine Manufacturers look good, then you tell me I’m propping bogus science?

Hahahahaha!

Thank You Indeed, for the best laugh I’ve had all day.


59 posted on 09/19/2011 10:01:11 PM PDT by To-Whose-Benefit? (It is Error alone which needs the support of Government. The Truth can stand by itself.)
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To: To-Whose-Benefit?

“Merck Paid 3,468 Death Claims to Resolve Vioxx Suits”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-27/merck-paid-3-468-death-claims-to-resolve-vioxx-suits.html

And people wonder why we conservatives think the PARENTS should decide, not Nanny Government.


60 posted on 09/19/2011 10:01:11 PM PDT by Sun (Pray that God sends us good leaders. Please say a prayer now.)
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To: To-Whose-Benefit?

Ad hominem is not good logic; and the difference here is honest science which S.A.N.E. lacks.


61 posted on 09/19/2011 10:15:31 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

“Ad hominem is not good logic”

Absolutely, and Gorski comes across from the start with condescencion and back handed ad hominum by the bucket, obviously so impressed with himself so that if anyone doesn’t understand how far Above it all he Personally is, they must be, well, just too dumb to google Gorski NEAR Merck.

Or to know that the Senate Finance Committee has been delivering one litter of kittens after another over and to Medical Researchers having Non-Disclosed Financial conflicts of interest coloring, distorting and obfuscating their junk research for the last few years, because that research is breaking Medicare and Medicaid’s back, to say nothing of crippling and killing patients.

http://www.google.com/search?q=grassley+NEAR+coi&hl=en&prmd=ivns&ei=-CJ4TrXOCanw0gH51on1Cw&start=0&sa=N


62 posted on 09/19/2011 10:26:51 PM PDT by To-Whose-Benefit? (It is Error alone which needs the support of Government. The Truth can stand by itself.)
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To: To-Whose-Benefit?

Yep, not even as credible as AARP.


63 posted on 09/19/2011 10:59:49 PM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: To-Whose-Benefit?

Well, they would be concerned, except that is just how many people died sometime after getting a Gardasil vaccination, not people who died becuase of the vaccine.

The MEDICAL studies done on the VAERS data has found NO deaths medically attributable to Gardasil yet.


64 posted on 09/19/2011 11:03:31 PM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT

“The MEDICAL studies done on the VAERS data has found NO deaths medically attributable to Gardasil yet.”

non-sequiter

We started, or at least were concerned, with Govt forcing people to use it, and pay for it. Are you defending Govt Forcing a foreign substance into another person? Even IF, as you claim, it can’t be Proven to be lethal?


65 posted on 09/19/2011 11:25:58 PM PDT by To-Whose-Benefit? (It is Error alone which needs the support of Government. The Truth can stand by itself.)
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To: To-Whose-Benefit?

I like Perry but seriously wonder why he was the only governor to fall for this Merck “mandate” hard sell.


66 posted on 09/20/2011 12:46:56 AM PDT by Yaelle
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To: Yaelle

Dunno. Don’t even know if Perry was the only one, but Texas is a ground zero hot spot for Pharma. Maybe this’ll provide an insight or two for you.

http://psychrights.org/Drugs/AllenJonesTMAPJanuary20.pdf


67 posted on 09/20/2011 12:56:21 AM PDT by To-Whose-Benefit? (It is Error alone which needs the support of Government. The Truth can stand by itself.)
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To: To-Whose-Benefit?
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/HPV/gardasil.html

It gets even better. The first paragraph on the CDC website says:

VAERS data cannot be used to prove a causal association between the vaccine and the adverse event. The only association between the adverse event and vaccination is temporal, meaning that the adverse event occurred sometime after vaccination. Therefore, the adverse event may be coincidental or it may have been caused by vaccination, however we cannot make any conclusions that the events reported to VAERS were caused by the vaccine.
68 posted on 09/20/2011 5:10:25 AM PDT by DTxAg
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To: To-Whose-Benefit?
Gorski comes across from the start with condescencion and back handed ad hominum (sic)

An argument is either ad hominem or it is not. If one's argument is about facts and positions and the statements of argument used by one's opponent, it is not ad hominem.

If, alternately one attacks an opponent's character, appealing to special interests or emotion, rather than answering his argument - this is an example of the ad hominem logically fallacy.

Your posts are examples of this. They do not further a position one way or another and generally illustrate a weakness in, or lack of, a valid argument.

69 posted on 09/20/2011 7:10:25 AM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: To-Whose-Benefit?
Tell me, genious, how many people die each year from other vaccines? How many from taking prescribed medications? How many from allergic reactions to various over the counter items? Over the same course of time that 68 people died after having received the vaccine (of which NOT ONE SINGLE CASE HAS BEEN DIRECTLY LINKED TO THE VACCINE), how many died from various forms of cervical cancer?

Botton line is there are risks in life, period. Every single time you get in your vehicle you place yourself at risk. Every single time you take a newly prescribed medication, you place yourself at risk.

You're using the same type of scare tactics used during the Asian flu outbreak, and the Avarian flu outbreak, and the West Nile Virus outbreak. None of which turned into the Pandemic the fear mongers told us they would.

It's tragic that there were 68 people who died sometime after having received this vaccine. But, correlation is not causation. Get back to us when you have causation.

70 posted on 09/20/2011 8:15:25 AM PDT by SoldierDad (Proud dad of an Army Soldier currently deployed in the Valley of Death, Afghanistan)
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To: goat granny

You do make a good point. I’d like clarification on this too.


71 posted on 09/20/2011 8:16:25 AM PDT by SoldierDad (Proud dad of an Army Soldier currently deployed in the Valley of Death, Afghanistan)
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To: trumandogz

You’re an idiot!

The polio deaths started with the Cutter Lab’s vaccine. They all came in a huge cluster that exactly matched up to the vaccination program.

You have to blame your imaginary conspiracies, when it was all standard greed. Pharma finances young doctors and ends up owning them, and the lives of their patients.


72 posted on 09/20/2011 12:09:08 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Sarah Palin - 2012 !)
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To: To-Whose-Benefit?

>> “I can’t recall the exact number they contributed to him, but wasn’t it a token amount like 6 or $10K?” <<

.
In total, it was $30,000.


73 posted on 09/20/2011 12:10:33 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Sarah Palin - 2012 !)
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To: SoldierDad

:O)


74 posted on 09/20/2011 12:15:51 PM PDT by goat granny
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To: To-Whose-Benefit?

Nice try, but since your post mentioned the 68 dead people at least two times, it’s clear that was your focus, until I told you that nobody died.

I’d be concerned if government was forcing it, but it isn’t, it wasn’t, and it never was going to. It was encouraging it, in this case by putting it on the required list, while leaving an opt-out for parents who cared.

Other states like Alaska encouraged it by advertising it on the government web site, recommending people take it, and offering it for free under a federal tax-payer funded program.

It’s a vaccine with relatively few side effects which will, if given universally, wipe out the cause of a good number of deaths each year. I can see why people are encouraging it.

Suppose two parents had a kid with a congenital heart defect. An operation might save his life. But the parents refuse the operation, so the kid is guaranteed to die. The operation is virtually 100% effective.

Would you support goverment stepping in and forcing the kid to have the operation, or do you believe the parents have an absolute right to decide what happens to their kid.

Does your answer change if I tell you the operation is 20% effective? or 5%?

If you support government stepping in to save the life of a child from parents who decide not to protect them, how do you distinguish that from parents not giving a life-saving vaccine? Is it different simply because the kids aren’t guaranteed to die without the vaccine, while in my example they were guaranteed to die?

What if there were 100 kids in a room. A man in the room has promised to kill 1 of the kids. The government can remove the kids from the room, and ensure that none of them die.

But 10 of the parents refuse to let the government take their kids out of the room. We know that 1 kid will die, but we don’t know if it is one of those 10 kids. It could be that none of them were the one that was picked to die. Now should we prohibit government action?


75 posted on 09/20/2011 1:06:55 PM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: To-Whose-Benefit?

You Perry supporters that have been calling Michelle Bachmann retarded because of her beliefs are about as low class as it gets.


76 posted on 09/20/2011 1:11:45 PM PDT by McGruff (Vetting - The process of examination and evaluation of a candidate's record.)
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To: CharlesWayneCT

“Nice try, but since your post mentioned the 68 dead people at least two times, it’s clear that was your focus, until I told you that nobody died.”

You can TELL other people anything you want to TELL them.

We seem to be entrenching behind a statement from the CDC that they can’t Prove that Gardasil was the actual cause of death, therefore, neither does their statement Prove that it Wasn’t.

The CDC’s statement amounts to “Dunno” and “Dunno” Proves zero either way. We also seem to be drawing the dividing line at the issue of Death. The non-lethal adverse reactions suffered by 11-12 yr old girls are being ignored here. Where’s the cut off? What types of damage Are acceptable?

From the same Heavenly Budgeted CDC which gives us their “Dunno”
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/HPV/HPVArchived.html

we find Them, And their Heavenly Budget, exactly as expected. Check the Dates on Their “Dunnos”, from when I accessed their page Today at 1:45pm.

Page last reviewed: March 10, 2010
Page last updated: February 7, 2011

That CDC argument clincher (as of 8 MONTHS AGO) was 20 reported Deaths, not 68.

So we’re left with another 48 reported Deaths in the last 8 months, but causation is not established beyond “Dunno”. What would the total be over the next 8 months, or 8 years? What would the total be if Gardasil had been on the market for the last 20 years? “Dunno”, and Wouldn’t know until After State Attorney Generals had sued the makers for damaging their own state Medicaid programs, and dragged all kinds of internal Company Documents from those makers into Court and the public record. And involving those State AGs takes Years, sometimes 10-15 years.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/HPV/jama.html

“Of the 12,424 reports of adverse events, 772 (6% of all reports) described serious adverse events, including 32 reports of deaths.
The 32 death reports were reviewed and there was no common pattern to the deaths that would suggest they were caused by the vaccine. In cases where there was an autopsy, death certificate, or medical records, the cause of death could be explained by factors other than the vaccine. Some causes of death determined to date include diabetes, viral illness, illicit drug use, and heart failure.”

That says that the Cause of death Could be explained by other factors, NOT that it Wasn’t caused by the vaccine, (by itself or in combination with other factors) while telling us that the vaccine inflicts 6% Serious Adverse Reactions. But we’re OK with that? 6 out of every 100 11-12 yr old kids having a Serious AER?

So, the CDC has All the answers we’d Ever need because they Are the Unelected and unaccountable short of convening a Congressional Investigation (which will issue yet Another toothless, do nothing report) Government Bureaucrats (who as everyone at FR Knows, are Incapable of screwing up) we allow to make potentially Lethal (or 6% CDC Admitted, Seriously Negative, Life Impacting) decisions for ourselves and our children, and everybody Else’s 11-12 yr old children.

JAMA: http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/302/7/795.full.pdf+html

“HPV is the most prevalent sexually transmitted infection, with an estimated 79% infection rate over a lifetime5,6 The virus does not appear to be very harmful because almost all HPV infections are cleared by the immune system.7,8 In a few women, infection persists and some women may develop precancerous cervical lesions and eventually cervical cancer. It is currently impossible to predict in which women this will occur and why. Likewise, it is impossible to predict exactly what effect vaccination of young girls and women will have on the incidence of cervical cancer 20 to 40 years from now.”

79% estimated lifetime infection rate, does not appear to be very harmful, cleared by immune system, and JAMA “Dunno” about 40 years down the road.

Life is full of risks. Yes, it is. Risk is an act of increasing “Dunno”, in This instance (Perry’s EO) through Government Fiat. 6 kids out of every 100. People were allowed to “opt out”? Tell me; Were those people informed at the time they were allowed to “opt out” of the 6% Serious Adverse Reaction Factor?

Since the CDC argument devolves into they “Dunno”, “Go To” Gorski is working for a University with a financial stake in positive outcomes, and Hope & Change for a cervical cancer free nation of 11-12 yr olds in trade for 6 out of every 100 of those kids being Seriously, Negatively Impacted, (based on another Financially Conflicted Government Fiat/EO) remains a Sewer of Ethical Dubiety, I’ll restate my open and principled defiance to allowing Anyone to force Any foreign substance into Anyone of Any age, let alone 11-12 yr old children.

I’m understanding that we will probably remain of opposing opinions on this issue, and therefore must agree to disagree while scratching my own head wondering What it is you’re so vociferously attached to in defending the application of Government Force (or misdirection, which is fraud) to Adversely, Negatively, Physically and Emotionally Harm 6 out of every 100 kids, even if None of them were actually Killed by the process: which conclusion has Not been Proven by the CDC with their definitive “Dunno”.

Returning to: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/HPV/jama.html

“An adverse event is considered serious if it is life threatening, or results in death, permanent disability, abnormal conditions at birth, hospitalization or prolonged hospitalization.”

6 out of every 100.


77 posted on 09/20/2011 2:33:26 PM PDT by To-Whose-Benefit? (It is Error alone which needs the support of Government. The Truth can stand by itself.)
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To: To-Whose-Benefit?

You got confused again, and mistakenly claimed that 6 out of 100 kids have a severe reaction.

But it was 6 out of 100 reported reactions that were severe.

There were 36,000,000 people vaccinated. There were 772 severe reaction reports. That’s 0.002%, not 6%.

People die every day. When the number of people who die after taking a vaccine are no greater a percentage than the number of deaths in the comparative population, it is not “dunno” to say the vaccine does not appear to have increased the risk of death.

You obviously are smart enough to at least find links, if you read them and tried to make sense of them so you wouldn’t make mistakes like claiming that 6% of children have severe reactions, you might educate yourself better.


78 posted on 09/20/2011 3:43:26 PM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT

“Other states like Alaska encouraged it by advertising it on the government web site, recommending people take it, and offering it for free under a federal tax-payer funded program.”

However, it wasn’t mandated in Alaska like Perry tried to do, but didn’t get away with it. Do you really want a Nanny president?


79 posted on 09/20/2011 4:06:41 PM PDT by Sun (Pray that God sends us good leaders. Please say a prayer now.)
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To: Sun

Lots of vaccines are mandated, even in Alaska, Minnesota, and Pennsylvania.

That’s why Gardasil was being “added” to a list — there was already a list.

I don’t know if you noticed, but a lot of people are complaining about Gardasil itself now. Like in THIS thread, where we are talking about a fringe group backing Bachman on her “mental retardation” charge.

If Gardasil is actually HARMFUL, isn’t it bad for a state to advertise it, encourage it, and pay for it, even if it is “voluntary”?

Not that Gardasil would have been mandatory in Texas.

And I’m not worried in the slightest bit about Rick Perry being a “Nanny” President. I see nothing in his Gardasil move that suggests that. Anyway, it’s Jobs, the Economy, the Debt, Obamacare, national Security. That’s 5 without even thinking, and NONE of them are related to “putting Gardasil on a school-required vaccine list”.


80 posted on 09/20/2011 10:25:15 PM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT

So why did Perry apologize?

(And I give him credit for that.)


81 posted on 09/20/2011 11:05:41 PM PDT by Sun (Pray that God sends us good leaders. Please say a prayer now.)
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To: CharlesWayneCT

You’ve disposed of my percentages of young girls seriously harmed by HPV vaccines based on an error in my methodology.

AERs are reported to Government Regulators on a voluntary basis, and very few of them are actually reported.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16689555

“Drug Saf. 2006;29(5):385-96.
Under-reporting of adverse drug reactions : a systematic review.
Hazell L, Shakir SA.
Source
Drug Safety Research Unit, Southampton, UK.
Abstract
The purpose of this review was to estimate the extent of under-reporting of adverse drug reactions (ADRs) to spontaneous reporting systems and to investigate whether there are differences between different types of ADRs. A systematic literature search was carried out to identify studies providing a numerical estimate of under-reporting. Studies were included regardless of the methodology used or the setting, e.g. hospital versus general practice. Estimates of under-reporting were either extracted directly from the published study or calculated from the study data. These were expressed as the percentage of ADRs detected from intensive data collection that were not reported to the relevant local, regional or national spontaneous reporting systems. The median under-reporting rate was calculated across all studies and within subcategories of studies using different methods or settings. In total, 37 studies using a wide variety of surveillance methods were identified from 12 countries. These generated 43 numerical estimates of under-reporting. The median under-reporting rate across the 37 studies was 94% (interquartile range 82-98%). There was no significant difference in the median under-reporting rates calculated for general practice and hospital-based studies. Five of the ten general practice studies provided evidence of a higher median under-reporting rate for all ADRs compared with more serious or severe ADRs (95% and 80%, respectively). In comparison, for five of the eight hospital-based studies the median under-reporting rate for more serious or severe ADRs remained high (95%). The median under-reporting rate was lower for 19 studies investigating specific serious/severe ADR-drug combinations but was still high at 85%. This systematic review provides evidence of significant and widespread under-reporting of ADRs to spontaneous reporting systems including serious or severe ADRs. Further work is required to assess the impact of under-reporting on public health decisions and the effects of initiatives to improve reporting such as internet reporting, pharmacist/nurse reporting and direct patient reporting as well as improved education and training of healthcare professionals.
PMID: 16689555 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

And based upon that, I’ll stick with my 6 out of every 100 number. Thank you for helping me refine this issue into better documented and clearer focus.


82 posted on 09/25/2011 10:59:53 PM PDT by To-Whose-Benefit? (It is Error alone which needs the support of Government. The Truth can stand by itself.)
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