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Nein! Nein! Nein! The wild world of Cainonomics
National Review Online ^ | September 29, 2011 | Kevin D. Williamson

Posted on 09/29/2011 3:59:45 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife

Herman Cain’s 9-9-9 proposal — a 9 percent personal-income tax, a 9 percent corporate-income tax, and a 9 percent federal sales tax, to replace all current federal taxes — is attractive in many ways. It is not a flat tax, but it is a flattish tax; it eliminates some (but by no means all) of the divide-and-conquer features of the federal tax code; it simplifies taxes for most households and many businesses; it might reduce compliance costs. All to the good.

A few things should be understood about the 9-9-9 plan. The first is that 9-9-9 is not Herman Cain’s real fiscal plan. He proposes 9-9-9 as an intermediate step en route to his preferred solution, the so-called Fair Tax, about which I have some serious reservations, along the lines of those spelled out by Ramesh Ponnuru here. In fact, Mr. Cain proposes an unwieldy and unnecessarily complex multistep program on the way to the Fair Tax, 9-9-9 being Phase 1, Part 2 (“Phase 1 Enhanced,” in his words). Getting Phase 1, Part 1 would be difficult enough, and the program is marked by Mr. Cain’s most distressing hallmark: wishful thinking that borders on fantasy. How is he going to get to Phase 2, the Fair Tax, a radical restructuring of U.S. public finances that invites not only fiscal questions but constitutional ones as well? “Amidst a backdrop of the economic boom created by the Phase 1 Enhanced Plan,” Mr. Cain writes, “I will begin the process of educating the American people on the benefits of continuing the next step to the Fair Tax.” May I propose a Williamson’s Rule of Politics? Here it is: “Any plan that includes the words ‘educating the American people’ will fail.” Mr. Cain’s proposals are always bolstered by that economic boom he sees just around the corner, but he never is able to answer the question: What if the boom fails to show up on schedule? What then? And that is one important reason Herman Cain should not be the Republican nominee. (Based on my single encounter with Mr. Cain, at a meeting with National Review’s editors, I would have hesitated to hire him to run a pizza company, much less the country.)

But let’s take a look at 9-9-9 on its own merits. Mr. Cain says the proposal would be revenue-neutral. I have my doubts. The federal government took in about $2.2 trillion last year. Based on personal-income and business-income figures from the IRS, and consumer-spending figures from the Gallup survey, my English-major math suggests that a 9 percent tax on all of the above produces about $1.7 trillion in revenue, meaning that 2010’s $1.7 trillion deficit would have been more like a $2.2 trillion deficit — from calamity to catastrophe. If Mr. Cain’s team is building in some growth assumptions into the fiscal forecasts, they must be sunny indeed.

In any event, Mr. Cain has not spelled out in any detail a spending proposal that would allow the federal government to get by on $2.2 trillion, much less on $1.7 trillion. If the Tea Party stands for anything, it stands for smaller government, meaning lower spending. And yet the allure of magical thinking on taxes is so powerful that the tea-party favorite has given a great deal more detail about his tax proposals, with actual figures and everything, than he has about his spending proposals, which remain remarkably vague: Spending must be “reviewed with a keen eye and a red pen,” he says. Well, gee willikers, why didn’t I think of that. (Other than his pie-in-the-sky growth assumptions, my least favorite thing about Herman Cain is that his response to every challenge is to appoint a committee of smart guys to do the right thing. He seems incapable of appreciating the fact that moral failing is not the only reason Washington fails to do the right thing.) As I have argued before, the real danger of tax-cuts-and-growth utopianism is that it draws attention away from spending cuts, which is where the real action is needed. Mr. Cain is nibbling at that bait.

The 9-9-9 proposal also creates some perverse incentives. With business income taxed at 9.0 percent while dividends and capital gains are taxed at 0.0 percent, there is an excellent reason to pay out something approaching 100 percent of business income as dividends, or to hide it by “reinvesting” it in the business. I like dividends and am sympathetic to the case for giving them preferential tax treatment — a company that concentrates on paying a high dividend rather than on raising its share price probably is a better-behaved company, in most cases — but it is always and everywhere true that if government creates a tax shelter it will be exploited to maximum effect.

What about that national sales tax? Though I remain hesitant about imposing a federal sales tax, on both Burkean and prudential grounds, Andrew Stuttaford and others have argued persuasively that income shouldn’t carry the entire tax burden, and that consumption has to carry a piece, too. I can live with that. But Fair Tax enthusiasts ought to be ready to deal with the emergence of a very large black market in untaxed consumer goods — a 30 percent sales tax will ensure that. You may get to abolish the IRS, but the sales-tax enforcers might prove just as expensive and intrusive.

Which is to say: There is no easy way out of this mess. Cain’s 9-9-9 program and the Fair Tax might very well constitute improvements on the status quo, but neither is a substitute for comprehensive entitlement reform and deep cuts in discretionary spending, the sine qua non of serious fiscal-reform efforts.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Government; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: economy; hermancain; incometax; nationalsalestax
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I was around for the Steve Forbes Flat Tax debate and feel Herman Cain's "9-9-9" Plan needs more exposure (as it is his main platform). I support Gov. Rick Perry's GOP Primary candidacy. However, I was curious to know more about Herman Cain's tax proposal and asked about the "9-9-9" Plan on another thread. I was given a link to Herman Cain's plan (same link as in article above).

The "ease" of "9-9-9" disappears upon first glance and upon closer scrutiny, the idea that this can survive all process levels, seems shaky indeed.

Hopefully, this article will initiate discussion, and this thread will provide a polite forum for rebuttal, so in the end we all will have increased understanding.

1 posted on 09/29/2011 3:59:56 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

Any opening to a VAT is the complete end to our way of life. The VATs in Europe range from 17% to a mindblowing 25%. Hence, everything is a major purchase. McDonalds value meals can be as much as $15 and a pair of Levis, $125. Apply those types of prices to near everything.

I love the idea of the 51% who currenly pay nothing paying something too but i know where 999 will lead. They’ll get credits (checks back from the taxpayer) and we will get ever rising consumer prices.


2 posted on 09/29/2011 4:03:18 AM PDT by riri
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

Adding a sales tax without repealing the income tax at the same time means you will never get rid of either one.


3 posted on 09/29/2011 4:04:06 AM PDT by Hugin ("A man'll usually tell you his bad intentions if you listen and let yourself hear it"--- Open Range)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

No new taxes, Herman.


4 posted on 09/29/2011 4:06:27 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

Bump for later.


5 posted on 09/29/2011 4:07:02 AM PDT by YankeeReb (No matter what, AB0 in 2012.)
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To: riri
Please get something straight. It is NOT A VAT. A VAT is assessed at each level of production. The Fair Tax and 9-9-9 would not do that therefore it is NOT A VAT.
6 posted on 09/29/2011 4:07:33 AM PDT by Perdogg (Do I miss Bush? Hell, I miss Clinton.)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

I like Cain a lot.

But enabling a federal income tax and a federal sales tax at the same time is very, very bad.

To implement a federal sales tax, first an amendment to the USC must be passed stating that the federal government can never have both taxes at the same time.

Otherwise, they will just continue to jack up both rates until we’re paying 25% on both, or 50% total.

Cain should know better.


7 posted on 09/29/2011 4:09:08 AM PDT by Ghost of Philip Marlowe (Prepare for survival.)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

I’ll take Herman Cain’s 9-9-9 plan more seriously as soon as he explains what he will cut to eliminate the $1.7 trillion to $2.2 trillion deficit that it will generate.


8 posted on 09/29/2011 4:09:45 AM PDT by SoJoCo
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

Perry’s not my solution at all and I’d vote for Cain ahead of him, but you’re right, Cain’s 999 plan is a bad fantasy.


9 posted on 09/29/2011 4:09:56 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: riri

The 51% don’t pay nothing. They pay no income tax (because they have kids and get the Earned Income Tax Credit). But they pay lots of other taxes, payroll, sales, property, and hidden taxes, like the cost of corporate income tax in everything they buy. But they don’t have any reason to care if income tax is raised. One reason I like the fair tax is that everyone would feel any tax increase.


10 posted on 09/29/2011 4:11:37 AM PDT by Hugin ("A man'll usually tell you his bad intentions if you listen and let yourself hear it"--- Open Range)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

There is a huge underground economy in this country that completely goes untaxed, so we really can’t use IRS figures.


11 posted on 09/29/2011 4:12:40 AM PDT by eastforker
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

This proposal starts a discussion.

The final legislation is not determined by the POTUS.


12 posted on 09/29/2011 4:14:58 AM PDT by Erik Latranyi (Cain for President - Because I Like The Content of His Character!)
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To: Ghost of Philip Marlowe
To implement a federal sales tax, first an amendment to the USC must be passed stating that the federal government can never have both taxes at the same time.

I don't think you need an amendment. If you repeal income tax in the same statute you pass a sales tax in, then you would need a whole new bill to start up the income tax again. That would mean it would need to pass the house, and have a filibuster proof majority in the Senate, and have the President sign it. That's different than just changing rates that they can do in budget reconcillation to avoid a filibuster.

13 posted on 09/29/2011 4:17:15 AM PDT by Hugin ("A man'll usually tell you his bad intentions if you listen and let yourself hear it"--- Open Range)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
I could see all of the IRS employees let go and that number is in the hundreds of thousands. They would need jobs.

If we had a Constitutional amendment to keep these taxes at a level for so many years, and then to be voted on by the people to see if they need to be raised or lowered.

I spend so much money now to comply with the tax codes.
Any thing is better than what we have.

I don't mind paying “my fair share” I mind having that money go to welfare, Charlie Rangel Libraries and bridges to no where.

14 posted on 09/29/2011 4:17:44 AM PDT by lucky american (I'm tired.)
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To: 9YearLurker

Cain understands this requires a repeal. He said that in MSM MSNBC. The amount of $$$$that will come in from those that work under the table and those that use every tax loophole will infuse a brand new sect if TAXPAYERS.

His plan is only on NEW products. New car equals tax. Used car equals no tax.


15 posted on 09/29/2011 4:18:05 AM PDT by Donnafrflorida (Thru HIM all things are possible.)
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To: 9YearLurker

Cain understands this requires a repeal. He said that in MSM MSNBC. The amount of $$$$that will come in from those that work under the table and those that use every tax loophole will infuse a brand new sect if TAXPAYERS.

His plan is only on NEW products. New car equals tax. Used car equals no tax.


16 posted on 09/29/2011 4:18:24 AM PDT by Donnafrflorida (Thru HIM all things are possible.)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

Another thing. Cain’s for favored tax treatments in empowerment zones, which is just another form of affirmative action.

Yes, Jack Kemp was for them and they are supposed to be a hallowed GOP idea because they favor blacks on a supposedly quasi-free market basis. But they are just another form of well-intended, unfair social engineering.


17 posted on 09/29/2011 4:19:09 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: Perdogg
could you explain the difference? In theory a VAT, though levied at every stage of production, is supposed to get refunded back as companies file onerous amounts of paper work to get refunds. But, as you can see by Euro prices, somehow it still massively inflates consumer prices.

I am just way too untrusful of any of these politicians or my idiot neighbors wh never miss a chance to keep raising taxes 1% at a time.

18 posted on 09/29/2011 4:19:09 AM PDT by riri
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To: Hugin
Adding a sales tax without repealing the income tax at the same time means you will never get rid of either one.

Indeed. Any new Federal tax must be tied to RATIFICATION of the repeal of the 16th amendment. Not "later", or "we'll try", but the new tax does not go into effect until AFTER the old one dies.

19 posted on 09/29/2011 4:20:50 AM PDT by Wolfie
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To: Donnafrflorida

It’s just a flat-out bad idea to set up new mechanisms for Congress to tax people in more ways. In some sort of utopian scheme one could at least make an argument for it, but in the real world of how Congress works, it is providing one more workshop for the government devil.


20 posted on 09/29/2011 4:21:15 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: SoJoCo

“I’ll take Herman Cain’s 9-9-9 plan more seriously as soon as he explains what he will cut to eliminate the $1.7 trillion to $2.2 trillion deficit that it will generate.”

Could you please explain this?

Do you assume that spending will continue at the present rate or will increase on a baseline basis as it has been doing for years?

I’m curious, not not accusatory. It’s a bald, unsubstantiated statement. Please provide details.


21 posted on 09/29/2011 4:21:21 AM PDT by Castigar
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To: Hugin

It’s good that you are considering potential abuses with any new tax.

But you’re ignoring where we are on income taxes. We’re almost to the point that more than half of the population will pay NO income tax.

When we get to the point that more than half of the voters pay no income tax, then they will vote for anyone who wants more spending.

Cain does need to advertise his short term spending plans better, but getting more people to participate in the pains of paying taxes (thru a flat tax or a sales tax) is the best way to reduce spending in the long term.


22 posted on 09/29/2011 4:24:12 AM PDT by kidd (Perry is a "conserbatib" - voting "conservative" while holding your nose)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

I think the Federal government needs to get completely out of the “income” tax game. To tempting to play the winners and losers game. The income tax needs to be repealed PERIOD. Until that happens the socialists will always have the upper hand.


23 posted on 09/29/2011 4:28:53 AM PDT by rightwingextremist1776
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To: Hugin
And adding a sales tax, at least for a while, taxes double the moneys earned and taxed at old income tax rates.

ML/NJ

24 posted on 09/29/2011 4:30:43 AM PDT by ml/nj
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To: Hugin

B I N G O!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One of the keystones of taxing in general!

Never add without subtracting somewhere else.

And, as the article states, all 999 does is confuse the issue
which is... CUT SPENDING.


25 posted on 09/29/2011 4:33:12 AM PDT by wita
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To: Castigar
Do you assume that spending will continue at the present rate or will increase on a baseline basis as it has been doing for years?

The 2011 federal spending is $3.82 trillion dollars. Earlier in the week the Washington Times, no liberal paper, had a op-ed that estimated that Cain's plan would bring in about $1.77 trillion in revenue at the beginning and rising to about $2.2 trillion as the economy improves. So no, I can't see how government spending can continue at the present rate under Cain's scheme, or any other tax proposal that are being floated out there. And before I take his proposal seriously I would like to know just how he plans to bring finances back into balance. As it stands now, you could eliminate every dollar of discretionary spending - which includes the entire defense budget - and you would still have close to a trillion dollar deficit in the first year or two of Cain's plan.

Basically, it's easy to toss out crap schemes that sound great so long as you aren't faced with answering any questions on the repercussions. But that isn't leadership. It isn't even smart.

26 posted on 09/29/2011 4:34:06 AM PDT by SoJoCo
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To: Perdogg

Are you OK with a 20% federal income tax combined with a 20% federal sales tax combined with a 20% corporate tax (to be pushed down to the consumer as always)?

That’s where the thieves will increment all taxes to in only a few years.

And no, you can’t build a cap into those taxes in the legislation. The thieves will simply repeal that part of the law in another law.


27 posted on 09/29/2011 4:34:38 AM PDT by Ghost of Philip Marlowe (Prepare for survival.)
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To: kidd

I’m not ignoring that, I talked about it in post #10. That’s why I like replacing all other taxes with a sales tax in a single bill.

As for waiting for an amendment, that’s really an excuse for Congress to pass the buck. They pass said amendment, then it goes to the states, where 50 legislatures fight over it. Meanwhile Congress can go about business as usual, and say “Hey, it’s not our fault, we’re waiting for the States to act”. I think once it’s abolished public pressure would prevent them from passing a whole new income tax bill.


28 posted on 09/29/2011 4:35:40 AM PDT by Hugin ("A man'll usually tell you his bad intentions if you listen and let yourself hear it"--- Open Range)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

You see what one good poll result will do? Nobody said a word about Herman Cain before except that he is Black and sold pizza. Now he is a target. This brings us back to my point that who the next Republican president is (and it will be a Republican)will really not be important because the TEA party Congress will control the agenda, not the White House. Welcome to the top tier Herman.


29 posted on 09/29/2011 4:35:50 AM PDT by jmaroneps37 (Conservatism is truth. Liberalism is lies.)
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To: Hugin

No, we MUST have an amendment that forbids congress from enacting both. Otherwise, they’ll repeal the income tax, implement the sales tax and later they’ll say that the “crisis” is so dire they need the income tax...oh, oh, oh, just for TWO years and then it sunsets, we promise! And then two years later...well, you know the drill.

You have to think of politicians as crack addicts. And you have to limit and restrict them accordingly.


30 posted on 09/29/2011 4:37:27 AM PDT by Ghost of Philip Marlowe (Prepare for survival.)
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To: eastforker

Won’t a federal sales tax increase the underground economy with people going underground to avoid the tax?

I think we need a flatter income tax, where pretty much everyone pays at least something and loopholes are closed. But any consumption tax seems to be bad for the economy.

I love a lot of things about Cain, but not 999.


31 posted on 09/29/2011 4:38:28 AM PDT by Above My Pay Grade
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
[But Fair Tax enthusiasts ought to be ready to deal with the emergence of a very large black market in untaxed consumer goods — a 30 percent sales tax will ensure that.]

The problem isn't the Fair Tax in theory, it is the fair tax in implementation. What happens as that tax creeps up?

32 posted on 09/29/2011 4:38:46 AM PDT by DaxtonBrown (http://www.futurnamics.com/reid.php)
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To: eastforker

Bingo!


33 posted on 09/29/2011 4:40:03 AM PDT by Thermalseeker (The theft being perpetrated by Congress and the Fed makes Bernie Maddoff look like a pickpocket.)
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To: Hugin

[Adding a sales tax without repealing the income tax at the same time means you will never get rid of either one.]

And the only real way to do that is by Contitutional ammendment. Ain’t gonna happen


34 posted on 09/29/2011 4:40:45 AM PDT by DaxtonBrown (http://www.futurnamics.com/reid.php)
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To: aruanan
No new taxes, Herman.

Baloney. Find a way to tax the 49% who pay no income taxes now. Broaden the tax base so that everyone feels the pain, and they'll think twice before asking for more government goodies. Once the scale tips so that 50+% pay no taxes, they will vote themselves endless goodies at the expense of the few remaining tax-paying folks forever.

Nonew taxes is a mindless mantra. Broaden the tax base - I am glad to say it.

35 posted on 09/29/2011 4:41:38 AM PDT by Puddleglum
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To: Ghost of Philip Marlowe

See #28.


36 posted on 09/29/2011 4:44:03 AM PDT by Hugin ("A man'll usually tell you his bad intentions if you listen and let yourself hear it"--- Open Range)
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To: Puddleglum
Baloney. Find a way to tax the 49% who pay no income taxes now.

That's not a new tax. That's just making everyone pay some portion of the same tax.
37 posted on 09/29/2011 4:45:17 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: All

Please forgive my lack of knowledge on the tax issue, but it has interested me more and more of late.

In your opinions and experience, what is the possibility of the elimination of all income taxes for citizens and have all government taxes be realized through sales or usage tax?

EVERYONE, regardless of socioeconomic status, must buy products and services. This way, EVERYONE pays something, no filing of personal income taxes, and greatly reduces the size of the IRS. No one who doesn’t work should get a tax refund but that happens every year.

I firmly believe you should keep everything you earn on your paycheck and YOU should decide what comes out of it.


38 posted on 09/29/2011 4:45:40 AM PDT by Molon Labbie
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To: Erik Latranyi

Agreed. Cain deserves some credit for his willingness to go out on a limb and start a real discussion. No other candidate has shown the guts to do so.


39 posted on 09/29/2011 4:46:18 AM PDT by 07Jack
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To: Molon Labbie

I am 100% behind Cain. I like his boldness and the fact that he has a plan. I get it but I do agree there are some questions that need to be answered.

I also understand that he needs Congress to buy in. It might not happen but it gets the conversation started and a world with drastically lower corporate taxes, no capital gains taxes and significantly lower costs of compliance is a good thing.

What we can’t afford is more of the same. The social engineering through the tax code has to go. I’m not in love with the “empowerment zones” concept but there are areas that desperately need revitalizing, particularly in a post-Zero world and they aren’t all minority areas.


40 posted on 09/29/2011 4:49:03 AM PDT by GatorGirl (Herman Cain 2012)
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To: aruanan
That's not a new tax. That's just making everyone pay some portion of the same tax.

tomatoe potatoe - with apologies to Dan Quayle. Tax on folks where there was no tax before. If you support that, we have no argument.

41 posted on 09/29/2011 4:50:23 AM PDT by Puddleglum
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To: wita; Hugin; All

Many costs passed to us come in the form of EPA regulations and lawsuit costs that businesses must comply with and continually fight (including going on bended knee and hat in hand — with a campaign donation — to Capital Hill). To me, these are hidden taxes.

Government must be CUT DOWN and their influence that has worked it’s way into every aspect of our lives, needs to be stopped, blocked and rolled back.

A major shift in our current paradigm must occur and it will take a long time for this to occur.

Turn out in the 2012 election will be paramount. Democratic Party elected officials, at all levels, must be defeated and replaced with conservatives for this process to begin.

For capitalism to survive, the GOP must bring in every voter who agrees that our country is broken, that it has been beaten down and that we need to return to the basics (get rid of these mulit-thousand page bills and codes and rules with untold numbers of ways lawyers and accountants can interpret them).

As we all know, numbers don’t lie, but liars can figure.


42 posted on 09/29/2011 4:58:46 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Cain's tax plan is idiotic nonsense. It's gimmickry. It's just what you'd expect from a fast-food guy. It should come with a side of garlic bread.

But worse, bringing the idea of a national sales tax into the conversation is dangerous and should be stopped. In short, Cain needs to shut the hell up about it. But of course he won't. Here's hoping his 15 minutes are up quickly.

43 posted on 09/29/2011 5:18:17 AM PDT by Huck (Oy.)
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To: Hugin
"a 9 percent personal-income tax, a 9 percent corporate-income tax, and a 9 percent federal sales tax, to replace all current federal taxes"
44 posted on 09/29/2011 5:20:41 AM PDT by RPTMS
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
...my English-major math suggests that a 9 percent tax on all of the above produces about $1.7 trillion in revenue, meaning that 2010’s $1.7 trillion deficit would have been more like a $2.2 trillion deficit...

Yo, Kevin, your libtard education doesn't recognize that lower taxes result in higher revenue. It's probably because libtards are trying to make the public think the words "taxes" and "revenue" mean the same thng.

45 posted on 09/29/2011 5:27:30 AM PDT by CPOSharky (The only thing straight, white, Christian males get is the blame for everything.)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

I would vote for Cain, but I wish he’d get off this 999 trick. It may have good properties, but there are too many unknowns, leaving Cain exposed to the Dems attack. They’ll will have a field day scaring the electorate. We need to focus the electorate on Obama’s record.


46 posted on 09/29/2011 5:39:16 AM PDT by Tim n Texas
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To: Hugin

You got it! Rush has been making that point ever since he’s been on the air.


47 posted on 09/29/2011 5:41:33 AM PDT by Matchett-PI (Obamageddon, Barackalypse Now! Bam is "Debt Man Walking" in 2012 - Rush Limbaugh)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Cain said that if 10% is good enough for God, then 9% should be good enough for the government. Well, 9% X 3 = 27%. Better he proposed a 3-3-3 scheme: 3% income tax on all income, 3% Social Security tax, and 3% capital gains tax. For those who'd say that it wouldn't provide enough revenue for the federal government, tell them, just wait for a few years. Oh, another part of the tax scheme should be that revenue in excess of expenses pays off the national debt. After that, revenues in excess of expenses are returned to the taxpayers in proportion to their taxes paid.
48 posted on 09/29/2011 5:42:02 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: aruanan
For those who'd say that it wouldn't provide enough revenue for the federal government, tell them, just wait for a few years.

I'd rather see your revenue figures now rather than wait and see a few years from now. If Cain's 9-9-9 plan will not even come close to covering current federal spending, how will the 3-3-3 plan do so?

49 posted on 09/29/2011 5:45:09 AM PDT by SoJoCo
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To: Ghost of Philip Marlowe

That was a chief component of the Fair Tax - it had a constitutional amendment repealing the 16th amendment, in effect, making income taxes unconstitutional,

whose ratification was a pre-requisite for implementing the NRST.


50 posted on 09/29/2011 5:49:47 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter knows whom he's working for)
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