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A Second Term for Obama Would Make the United States Go as California Has Gone
Real Clear Politics ^ | Oct 8, 2011 | Rep. Tom McClintock

Posted on 10/09/2011 1:42:39 AM PDT by Avoiding_Sulla

welcome...to the savage lands of the Left Coast. You are here in California to answer an important theoretical question and now you have your answer.

Yes, this is what Barack Obama’s second term would look like.

Study it. Fear it. And then go home and make sure that it never happens to the rest of the country.

...
the tale of how, in the span of a single generation, the most prosperous and golden state in the nation became an economic basket case.
...
The political Left gradually gained dominance over California’s government and has imposed a disastrous agenda of radical and retrograde policies that have destroyed the quality of life that Californians once took for granted.
...
I submit to you that no conceivable act of God could wreak such devastation. Only acts of government can do that. And they have.
...
Our regulatory burdens are also years ahead of the rest of the nation – we’ve had our own version of Cap and Trade on the books for five years now, and even though the bulk of these restrictions yet to take effect, investors make decisions every day anticipating their impact.

This has already proven utterly devastating to energy generation, cargo and passenger transportation, cement production, construction, wine making, agriculture and manufacturing. When he signed this legislation, Gov. Schwarzenegger promised that this would produce a cornucopia of new green jobs.

...
But I need to remind you that the Obama administration is pursuing exactly the same policies nationally – and so far with the same results.
...

The humility...gave way to the hubris that the state knew better...at the core of this breakdown was the abandonment of our basic republican structure of government – and it began. right. here.

(Excerpt) Read more at realclearpolitics.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Editorial; Government; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: mcclintock
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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Congressman Tom McClintock remains the politician for whom I have contributed the most money ever. I am firmly convinced that had the "moderate" wing of the GOP -- the group many of you inaccurately label as RINOs but whom I call SKUNCs -- not tilted towards the Left and their wholly aligned media, the last eight years of California's history would have been much different. We would have been enjoying one remarkable recovery instead of this disastrous decline. And it is destined to continue under Jerry Brown (who would never have been elected but for the disaster that was Arnold) who has a  legislature so corrupt and Marxist that even he has had to veto some of their excesses.

About the only thing I did not like was that he gave no credit to the TEA party movement for the huge electoral gains made by Republicans everywhere across this nation except California beginning last November. I think it is in great part because he's been a member of the GOP too long. However, his words, and warnings for the rest of the country are well worth heeding.

The danger to our way of life comes because the control of the party ostensibly opposing Statism is still in the hands of SKUNCs. Each of us who do not approve of these bastards must make an effort to see that situation is changed or the whole of the West is most assuredly going to finally succumb to Kruschev's infamous boast: "We will bury you."

Crossposted

1 posted on 10/09/2011 1:42:43 AM PDT by Avoiding_Sulla
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To: Avoiding_Sulla

California used to be the place where everyone wanted to go, so what happened? What was the tipping point?


2 posted on 10/09/2011 1:55:51 AM PDT by factoryrat (We are the producers, the creators. Grow it, mine it, build it.)
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To: factoryrat

In his speech McClintock points to Jerry Brown’s first administration where he ran on and got elected on the theme “The Age of Limits.” Conservative voters wishfully inferred he was talking about limits on government. Foolish pubbies.


3 posted on 10/09/2011 2:00:11 AM PDT by Avoiding_Sulla (How humanitarian are "leaders" who back Malthusian, Utilitarian & Green nutcases?)
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To: factoryrat

Brown signed the bill (1975?) that allowed California public employees to be unionized. What more does anyone need to know past that?


4 posted on 10/09/2011 2:03:40 AM PDT by Avoiding_Sulla (How humanitarian are "leaders" who back Malthusian, Utilitarian & Green nutcases?)
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To: factoryrat

“California used to be the place where everyone wanted to go, so what happened? What was the tipping point?”

Califorina has all the natural advantages in the world, it took a great deal for her goverment to really drive that state into the ditch.

But I have to blame the people of Califorina, they elected their legislator, they elector their govern.

I just hope that theses disgusting leftist never move to my state when their done trashing their own. Let them be-confined to the Communist hell hole they have created for themselves and their Countrymen(statesmen).

Those who apposed this and believed in freedom are welcomed to come to Texas. We may not have all the same natural advantages of Califorina but we do have one irreplaceable element, respect for freedom.


5 posted on 10/09/2011 2:41:35 AM PDT by Monorprise
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To: Avoiding_Sulla

He is right about a number of thing.

“I believe that if Californians rediscover these self-evident truths, Jerry Brown will be to California what Barack Obama has been to the rest of the country – a giant wake-up call. And if Americans rally behind these truths, together, we will write the next great chapter of the American Republic: that just when it looked like America would fade into history as just another failed socialist state, this generation of Americans rediscovered, revived and restored those uniquely American principles of individual liberty and constitutionally limited government, rallied under a bold banner held high by the traditional party of freedom, and from that moment America began her next great era of expansion, prosperity and influence.”

Sadly even the Republican house lost ground cause they caved into the democrats demands instead of letting the Government property shut down for a time.

Even thou the Democrat controlled credit rating agency’s would not so openly admit it, that was the reason we lost AAA.

We also failed to fully press our advantage in highlighting to the Socialist public the inproodence with trusting goverment with all theses socialist responsibility given that it CAN shut down.

We should have argued that goverment shutdown is a normal and necessary part of a democracy. That we cant always agree on how to run things, and that it is better that we not do everything until we can. That to do otherwise is to further empower a Government that Governs without the consent of the Governed.

If democrats don’t like that cause they got so much of the population depended upon the same goverment well that’s their problem. This is reality, and if you dare change it you do so by sacrificing freedom to the blackmailers and bundlers.


That being said we can still recover from Our Congressional leaders mistakes.

the Democrats have still taken the bate and have recognized the institutional problems with their dreams. We must press that advantage and make sure their whole base is disillusioned with the idea that they can get the Government to reliably provide theses services.

We do that and we will force them into a position in which they will have to turn either to private charity or even more bluntly totalitarian polices.(as the North Carolina Governor Suggested).

Either way we win, but we must push for the private alternative.


6 posted on 10/09/2011 3:07:48 AM PDT by Monorprise
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To: Avoiding_Sulla
I have a cousin in California. He bought his house for almost a million dollars. My detached 20 thousand dollar garage is almost the same size as his house.

I saw him recently and he looks frazzled. He talked about hopes that his property would not lose much more value. He is probably 250,000 under water. Bankruptcy is probably looking good to him now. Ten years ago he was a cocky confident arrogant snob. Today he is a different man.

California has figured out how to ignore reality for a generation. Sometimes, it seems, we almost beg for a good azz beating.

7 posted on 10/09/2011 4:11:08 AM PDT by PA-RIVER
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To: factoryrat

“What was the tipping point?”

1.) Political correctness
2.) Liberalism
3.) Unions
4.) Illegal alien invasion (supported, endorsed, and financed by 1, 2, and 3)


8 posted on 10/09/2011 4:25:13 AM PDT by Ernie Kaputnik ((It's a mad, mad, mad world.))
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To: Avoiding_Sulla

I have regular contact with a woman who agrees with everything obama says. She’s employed with a good job. You can’t talk politics with her without getting into an argument.


9 posted on 10/09/2011 5:13:54 AM PDT by Dr. Scarpetta
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To: Avoiding_Sulla

Califonication is the new Greece.


10 posted on 10/09/2011 5:16:23 AM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Avoiding_Sulla
More socialists in office is a disaster and it does not make one damned bit of difference what party the socialist is a member of, if any.

The problem is not the name Obama, contrary to the intellectual juvenility put forth in this screed.

I wont vote for a Romney or a Perry just as I wont vote for Obama.

11 posted on 10/09/2011 5:30:46 AM PDT by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: Avoiding_Sulla
California is one Hell of a liability ,a gigantic block of lead sinking the whole nation.
12 posted on 10/09/2011 5:35:20 AM PDT by oyez ( America is being pimped.)
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To: MrEdd

Thanks for all your help.


13 posted on 10/09/2011 5:49:53 AM PDT by Ann Archy ( ABORTION...the HUMAN Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: Avoiding_Sulla
When he signed this legislation, Gov. Schwarzenegger promised that this would produce a cornucopia of new green jobs.

Somebody should have explained the word "cornucopia" to Aaahnold.

14 posted on 10/09/2011 6:14:42 AM PDT by hattend (If I wanted you dead, you'd be dead. - Cameron Connor)
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To: factoryrat
California used to be the place where everyone wanted to go, so what happened? What was the tipping point?

Hint: He's governor again.

15 posted on 10/09/2011 6:15:41 AM PDT by hattend (If I wanted you dead, you'd be dead. - Cameron Connor)
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To: Dr. Scarpetta

A second term for Obama may well happen—BUT if it does it will be a lame duck powerless Obama and one that may well face impeachment and disgrace. If re-elected he will not serve out his four years in the White House—he will be forced out. Who would have thunk Brown would be re-elected? It could happen. How?
1. GOP selects someone controversial who looks good now.
2. Once nominated a scandal comes out that makes him look like a criminal or a pervert.
3. He is linked to real scandals.
4. The MSM attacks him hard—so he looks like a fool.
5. Obama looks like a better choice—the best of a bad lot.
It could happen. We must be ready to support Tea Party people for the Congress and Senate, as well as the state houses, the county governments, etc... It isn’t just about who sleeps in the White House. Let us not give up hope.


16 posted on 10/09/2011 6:18:24 AM PDT by Forward the Light Brigade (Into the Jaws of H*ll)
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To: Avoiding_Sulla

Two hundred years ago, a sleeping land where almost nothing was happening — at least not in lower CA.
Blame government, but government is the work of foolish, lazy citizens.
It usually ends when the foolish and lazy prove they are also cowardly.


17 posted on 10/09/2011 6:22:35 AM PDT by Lady Lucky
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To: Monorprise

Many of the CA leftists you mention have already relocated and taken over CO.


18 posted on 10/09/2011 7:10:50 AM PDT by Theodore R.
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To: Avoiding_Sulla

Obviously a First Term of Perry will do the same, given how he’s CODDLED ILLEGALS here in Texas.


19 posted on 10/09/2011 7:12:43 AM PDT by BobL (I want a Conservative for 2012, not Perry)
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To: BobL
In my experience, Mexicans have not been anxious to stay in school. I went to elementary school in the 40’s and 50’s with a number of Mexicans kids and none of them made it to 7th grade. When you are 15 in 6th grade you tend to drop out and get a job.

I wonder how many illegal Mexican kids actually take advantage of the in state tuition they are eligible for after going to school in Texas for 3 years.

I would like to know, is it 10 per year, 20 per year? Knowing that the number is really small might shut some of you up on the subject and you could start talking about his hair again.

20 posted on 10/09/2011 7:21:31 AM PDT by Ditter
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To: Ditter

“I wonder how many illegal Mexican kids actually take advantage of the in state tuition they are eligible for after going to school in Texas for 3 years.

I would like to know, is it 10 per year, 20 per year? Knowing that the number is really small might shut some of you up on the subject and you could start talking about his hair again.”

It’s now in the thousands. But even so, they are displacing legal Texans, so if it were 10 or 20, I’d still have an issue...maybe you wouldn’t, but I would.


21 posted on 10/09/2011 7:29:11 AM PDT by BobL (I want a Conservative for 2012, not Perry)
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To: BobL
Mexicans are displacing legal Texans from getting into college? The thing that keeps you out of college is your grade point average from highschool and your SAT scores, not the fact that there are Mexican kids in line ahead of you.
Besides didn't the Texas legislature vote almost unanimously to allow the in state tuition?
22 posted on 10/09/2011 7:53:19 AM PDT by Ditter
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To: Ditter

“Mexicans are displacing legal Texans from getting into college? The thing that keeps you out of college is your grade point average from highschool and your SAT scores, not the fact that there are Mexican kids in line ahead of you.
Besides didn’t the Texas legislature vote almost unanimously to allow the in state tuition? “

I don’t know about where you live, but here in Texas we have a limited budget for higher education. We can spend that some of that money subsidizing Illegals, or we spend that same money subsidizing in-state legals. I prefer in-state legals, but if you prefer differently, that’s fine.

As far as the legislature is concerned, the Dream Act was Perry’s honeymoon and one of his top priorities, they would given him anything. On the other hand, if Perry didn’t want the Dream Act to pass, it likely wouldn’t have been voted on, or at least he would have held a veto.

...and remember, he very recently defended it to the point of calling 81% of this country (who oppose it) Heartless. So any implication that it was forced upon him doesn’t hold water.


23 posted on 10/09/2011 8:05:48 AM PDT by BobL (I want a Conservative for 2012, not Perry)
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To: BobL

I am here in Texas just like you are, only longer. The only thing Perry has tried to do that I objected to was the TTC and when the citizens said NO, he dropped it. What is not to like about a politician that listens?


24 posted on 10/09/2011 8:21:33 AM PDT by Ditter
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To: hattend

LOL. Yeah, I singled out Brown allowing public employees to unionize, but his very existence provides a bigger target. However, thanks to the new Pravda and Izvestia and a SKUNC ridden CAGOP, the voters never heard much of his earlier record connected to the current disaster.


25 posted on 10/09/2011 8:25:44 AM PDT by Avoiding_Sulla (How humanitarian are "leaders" who back Malthusian, Utilitarian & Green nutcases?)
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To: Theodore R.

“Many of the CA leftists you mention have already relocated and taken over CO.”

And WA and OR and MT and ...


26 posted on 10/09/2011 8:30:55 AM PDT by Avoiding_Sulla (How humanitarian are "leaders" who back Malthusian, Utilitarian & Green nutcases?)
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To: Avoiding_Sulla
On the positive side, if all the flakes, fruits and nuts from other states come here (which is what we're inviting them to do), that should leave the rest of the country to live relatively normal lives.

If all the basket cases are here, there won't be enough to pass California style laws in or for the rest of the country.

27 posted on 10/09/2011 8:34:48 AM PDT by Texas Eagle (If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all -- Texas Eagle)
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To: Ditter

“I am here in Texas just like you are, only longer. The only thing Perry has tried to do that I objected to was the TTC and when the citizens said NO, he dropped it. What is not to like about a politician that listens?”

He does eventually listen. Even Bush-43 listened, on Amnesty and Harriett Myers (sp.)...but do we REALLY need such ugly and public fights to drag a moderate Republican to our side? You just start out with a conservative, and things go smooth.

And by the way, the key concept of the TTC, which is monopoly-protected private toll roads (where the operators can charge as much as they wish) is still alive and kicking. Here in Houston, we’re about to get our first taste of it in the next section of the Grand Parkway. It’s also happening elsewhere in the state.

And Perry only ‘dropped’ the INSANE scheme when he saw that it was starting to get in the way of his political future. He certainly didn’t give a damn when people were SCREAMING about for the 5 years prior.


28 posted on 10/09/2011 8:35:58 AM PDT by BobL (I want a Conservative for 2012, not Perry)
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To: BobL

Here is what I don’t understand about the objection to the in state tuition. These kids are in Texas through no fault of their own, their illegal parents brought them here. The federal government will do nothing to help us stop it or send them back! NOTHING!

Do we want these kids standing on the corner with a sign asking for handouts or asking for day work? Or do we want them to be educated members of our society (they aren’t leaving) so they can take care of their parents when they are elderly and so the entire tribe will not end up on welfare?


29 posted on 10/09/2011 8:40:02 AM PDT by Ditter
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To: Ditter

No, they want them rounded up and shipped back to Mexico. To them, they are all “illegal aliens” first, people second.


30 posted on 10/09/2011 8:43:15 AM PDT by magritte
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To: Ditter

“Here is what I don’t understand about the objection to the in state tuition. These kids are in Texas through no fault of their own, their illegal parents brought them here. The federal government will do nothing to help us stop it or send them back! NOTHING!

Do we want these kids standing on the corner with a sign asking for handouts or asking for day work? Or do we want them to be educated members of our society (they aren’t leaving) so they can take care of their parents when they are elderly and so the entire tribe will not end up on welfare?”

That’s the heartless argument. My argument is that we also act a magnet to the parents of illegals who are deciding where to live in the US. Texas is 55/45 Republican...it should be much higher, but we get more and more illegals all the time...and they do vote, no one checks. So I simply don’t want them here, and will support ANY incentive to keep them away.

Also, Perry’s continued defense of his Dream Act can only mean one thing, that he’ll push for an Amnesty once he gets into power...otherwise, by his own definition, he would be ‘heartless’, forcing these college graduates to stand on street corners for handouts. If he had distanced himself from this Dream Act (it was 10 years ago, after all, and things were different), there’s a good chance he’d still be in the top tier. But he stuck to his guns, not a good political move (which also bodes badly if he becomes president).


31 posted on 10/09/2011 8:46:33 AM PDT by BobL (I want a Conservative for 2012, not Perry)
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To: BobL
“a magnet to Texas”

Yeah right, I can see that wetback swimming the Rio Grande and thinking “my future kids are going to get instate college tuition when they are born in Texas”!

I am sorry but I don't think so!

32 posted on 10/09/2011 8:53:55 AM PDT by Ditter
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To: Ditter

““a magnet to Texas”
Yeah right, I can see that wetback swimming the Rio Grande and thinking “my future kids are going to get instate college tuition when they are born in Texas”!
I am sorry but I don’t think so! “

LOL. You don’t know much about Illegals if that’s your picture of them.


33 posted on 10/09/2011 8:57:13 AM PDT by BobL (I want a Conservative for 2012, not Perry)
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To: BobL

I have watched them cross the river and walk across our pasture. I have given them a bag of cookies and had them fall on their knees and bless me. I have watched them walk across the bridge and keep on going. I have watched them lay down under a bush and give birth to a new infant Texan. Have you?


34 posted on 10/09/2011 9:08:41 AM PDT by Ditter
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To: Ditter

“I have watched them cross the river and walk across our pasture. I have given them a bag of cookies and had them fall on their knees and bless me. I have watched them walk across the bridge and keep on going. I have watched them lay down under a bush and give birth to a new infant Texan. Have you?”

So you’ve watched a subset of them at one location. Better than nothing, but I’ve read enough reports to know how they’re smuggled in and how well-organized it has become.

Anyway, it doesn’t matter. You’re more than welcome to help Perry make this state a magnet for Illegals (don’t forget no E-Verify, Sanctuary Cities, and God knows what else), but I really can’t support that.


35 posted on 10/09/2011 9:19:29 AM PDT by BobL (I want a Conservative for 2012, not Perry)
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To: BobL

Several different locations Bob. I know they are smuggled in in trucks, probably after they get themselves across the river. Anyone who has watched the news has seen that. I have seen them carrying bundles on the top of their heads as they head to the train tracks. We had a little cabin deep in the hill country where they would break in and sleep in our beds and eat our food when we weren’t there. They didn’t get there by truck with a coyote. My husband found the skull of one of them that didn’t make it.

Look, I don’t want them here either but until the federal government does something about it, they are here.


36 posted on 10/09/2011 9:32:20 AM PDT by Ditter
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To: Afronaut; American in Israel; Amerigomag; AnnaZ; Aquinasfan; AuntB; Avoiding_Sulla; BaBaStooey; ...

This was a fine speech my Tom McClintock.

He was sending a warning to the rest of the country.

There is only one glaring missing element that I find troubling as it would appear to be a deliberate avoidance. I am hoping one of you can explain it.

Tom lauds in the speech the GOP wins since the last election cycle. So why did he not salute the TEA party movement in any way given how its sentiments drove that win? He gave not hint of the TEA party in anyway.


37 posted on 10/09/2011 9:41:00 AM PDT by Avoiding_Sulla (How humanitarian are "leaders" who back Malthusian, Utilitarian & Green nutcases?)
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To: Avoiding_Sulla
Thanks for the ping. Bookmarking to read later.

McClintock BTTT

38 posted on 10/09/2011 9:47:42 AM PDT by truthkeeper (Vote Against Barack Obama in 2012!)
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To: Ditter

“Look, I don’t want them here either but until the federal government does something about it, they are here.”

I hear you. But you’re still dealing with half the problem, which is the time that they’re on the run...and yes, a Fence would work great, along with boots and sensors.

But the other half is the demographic end of it...as they settle in, and get comfortable, they vote. If they didn’t vote, we wouldn’t have bi-lingual ballots now, since citizens are REQUIRED to show a working capability of English. We’re 55/45 Republican now. In one generation, with more and more illegals settling in here, we’ll flip, and the state will be Democrat. I’d hate to see that...and yes, a governor who’s capable of understanding that will act on it, as what happened in Arizona.


39 posted on 10/09/2011 10:31:09 AM PDT by BobL (I want a Conservative for 2012, not Perry)
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To: BobL
I want the most Conservative candidate we can get THAT CAN WIN! I don't think we should bash Perry or Cain or Santorum or whoever. Reagan did and said things that uber conservatives didn't like and he WAS a democrat at one time. A Republican candidate has to appeal to ALL Republicans, I don't know which one that will be but I don't think we should be nick picking and bashing Perry or anyone. I like Cain but he has no political experience, he is used to being boss, his way or the highway. How is that going to work with the congress? Bachman is great but she is whiny, I could vote for her easily as well as any of the others (except for Paul who is nuts). I WANT OBAMA OUT!!!!!!
40 posted on 10/09/2011 10:48:40 AM PDT by Ditter
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To: Avoiding_Sulla

And electing a Republican who is little different would be worse as we would lack the collective will to oppose such a pretender.


41 posted on 10/09/2011 10:58:54 AM PDT by Waywardson (Carry on! Nothing equals the splendor!)
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To: Ditter

“I like Cain but he has no political experience, he is used to being boss, his way or the highway. How is that going to work with the congress?”

I hear you, but I think that Cain is a better listener than Perry could ever be, simply because of that heartless comment. He simply cannot tolerate being told he’s wrong.


42 posted on 10/09/2011 11:17:09 AM PDT by BobL (I want a Conservative for 2012, not Perry)
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To: factoryrat
California is a mess.
In the 70s you couldn't find trash. Now as you get closer to any Hispanic population the amounts of trash grows as you get closer to them.
Go North towards Canada and there is none, go south towards Mexico and it is a dump.
That is the truth, and our social systems in a big way support Mexico as well.
43 posted on 10/09/2011 11:20:35 AM PDT by A CA Guy ( God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: BobL

You are reading minds again Bob. You don’t know that Cain would be a better listener than Perry. Perry has a record and he has listened and changed what he was doing.

If I was into mind reading I might think that Cain would not listen at all. The big boss doesn’t have to listen.


44 posted on 10/09/2011 11:25:10 AM PDT by Ditter
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To: Waywardson; MrEdd
Well, you two and I make three. I've been saying what you said for so long -- it's implied in my FReepname -- that I'm tired of feeling isolated. So I'm very happy to make your acquaintance after all this time. Now, how can we grow our group? Surely it's not in focusing on smaller differences (surely we have them) -- cuz the tyrants will surely exploit them.

I aim to be pretty consistent. Here's my most recent commentary that fits in with your thinkings, Had Enough of Good GOP, Bad GOP Yet?, and an excerpt:


45 posted on 10/09/2011 11:25:37 AM PDT by Avoiding_Sulla (How humanitarian are "leaders" who back Malthusian, Utilitarian & Green nutcases?)
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To: Ditter

“You are reading minds again Bob. You don’t know that Cain would be a better listener than Perry. Perry has a record and he has listened and changed what he was doing.”

Whatever, Perry’s toast anyway. I don’t really need to spend much more time on him...but it’s just fun.


46 posted on 10/09/2011 11:59:35 AM PDT by BobL (I want a Conservative for 2012, not Perry)
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To: BobL

What else do you do for fun Bob? Do you start fires, stomp puppies, make prank calls? You don’t sound like a very fun guy. Who did you say you are supporting?


47 posted on 10/09/2011 12:09:39 PM PDT by Ditter
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To: Ditter

“What else do you do for fun Bob? Do you start fires, stomp puppies, make prank calls? You don’t sound like a very fun guy. Who did you say you are supporting?”

Getting a bit personal here - I guess our discussion is over.


48 posted on 10/09/2011 12:13:59 PM PDT by BobL (I want a Conservative for 2012, not Perry)
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To: South40

(from Post 47...)

“What else do you do for fun Bob? Do you start fires, stomp puppies, make prank calls? You don’t sound like a very fun guy. Who did you say you are supporting?”

I see what you mean South40, thanks for the advice with these types.


49 posted on 10/09/2011 12:16:25 PM PDT by BobL (I want a Conservative for 2012, not Perry)
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To: BobL

Aw come on, tell us who you like in the race. Don’t go away mad.


50 posted on 10/09/2011 12:17:01 PM PDT by Ditter
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