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Forgive Student Loans? (93% of Wall Street Protesters Surveyed Want Student Load Forgiveness)
National Review ^ | 10/11/2011 | Richard Vedder

Posted on 10/11/2011 8:18:53 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

As the Wall Street protests grow and expand beyond New York, growing scrutiny of the nascent movement is warranted. What do these folks want? Alongside their ranting about the inequality of incomes, the alleged inordinate power of Wall Street and large corporations, the high level of unemployment, and the like, one policy goal ranks high with most protesters: the forgiveness of student-loan debt. In an informal survey of over 50 protesters in New York last Tuesday, blogger and equity research analyst David Maris found 93 percent of them advocated student-loan forgiveness. An online petition drive advocating student-loan forgiveness has gathered an impressive number of signatures (over 442,000). This is an issue that resonates with many Americans.

Economist Justin Wolfers recently opined that “this is the worst idea ever.” I think it is actually the second-worst idea ever — the worst was the creation of federally subsidized student loans in the first place. Under current law, when the feds (who have basically taken over the student-loan industry) make a loan, the size of the U.S. budget deficit rises and the government borrows additional funds, very often from foreign investors. We are borrowing from the Chinese to finance school attendance by a predominantly middle-class group of Americans.

But that is the tip of the iceberg: Though the ostensible objective of the loan program is to increase the proportion of adult Americans with college degrees, over 40 percent of those pursuing a bachelor’s degree fail to receive one within six years. And default is a growing problem with student loans.

Further, it’s not clear that college imparts much of value to the average student. The typical college student spends less than 30 hours a week, 32 weeks a year, on all academic matters — class attendance, writing papers, studying for exams, etc. They spend about half as much time on school as their parents spend working. If Richard Arum and Josipa Roksa (authors of Academically Adrift) are even roughly correct, today’s students typically learn little in the way of critical learning or writing skills while in school.

Moreover, the student-loan program has proven an ineffective way to achieve one of its initial aims, a goal also of the Wall Street protesters: increasing economic opportunity for the poor. In 1970, when federal student-loan and -grant programs were in their infancy, about 12 percent of college graduates came from the bottom one-fourth of the income distribution. While people from all social classes are more likely to go to college today, the poor haven’t gained nearly as much ground as the rich have: With the nation awash in nearly a trillion dollars in student-loan debt (more even than credit-card obligations), the proportion of bachelor’s-degree holders coming from the bottom one-fourth of the income distribution has fallen to around 7 percent.

The sins of the loan program are many. Let’s briefly mention just five.

First, artificially low interest rates are set by the federal government — they are fixed by law rather than market forces. Low-interest-rate mortgage loans resulting from loose Fed policies and the government-sponsored enterprises Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac spurred the housing bubble that caused the 2008 financial crisis. Arguably, federal student financial assistance is creating a second bubble in higher education.

Second, loan terms are invariant, with students with poor prospects of graduating and getting good jobs often borrowing at the same interest rates as those with excellent prospects (e.g., electrical-engineering majors at MIT).

Third, the availability of cheap loans has almost certainly contributed to the tuition explosion — college prices are going up even more than health-care prices.

Fourth, at present the loans are made by a monopoly provider, the same one that gave us such similar inefficient and costly monopolistic behemoths as the U.S. Postal Service.

Fifth, the student-loan and associated Pell Grant programs spawned the notorious FAFSA form that requires families to reveal all sorts of financial information — information that colleges use to engage in ruthless price discrimination via tuition discounting, charging wildly different amounts to students depending on how much their parents can afford to pay. It’s a soak-the-rich scheme on steroids.

Still, for good or ill, we have this unfortunate program. Wouldn’t loan forgiveness provide some stimulus to a moribund economy? The Wall Street protesters argue that if debt-burdened young persons were free of this albatross, they would start spending more on goods and services, stimulating employment. Yet we demonstrated with stimulus packages in 2008 and 2009 (not to mention the 1930s, Japan in the 1990s, etc.) that giving people more money to spend will not bring recovery. But even if it did, why should we give a break to this particular group of individuals, who disproportionately come from prosperous families to begin with? Why give them assistance while those who have dutifully repaid their loans get none? An arguably more equitable and efficient method of stimulus would be to drop dollars out of airplanes over low-income areas.

Moreover, this idea has ominous implications for the macro economy. Who would take the loss from the unanticipated non-repayment of a trillion dollars? If private financial institutions are liable for some of it, it could kill them, triggering another financial crisis. If the federal government shoulders the entire burden, we are adding a trillion or so more dollars in liabilities to a government already grievously overextended (upwards of $100 trillion in liabilities counting Medicare, Social Security, and the national debt), almost certainly leading to more debt downgrades, which could trigger investor panic. This idea is breathtaking in terms of its naïveté and stupidity.

The demonstrators say that selfish plutocrats are ruining our economy and creating an unjust society. Rather, a group of predominantly rather spoiled and coddled young persons, long favored and subsidized by the American taxpayer, are complaining that society has not given them enough — they want the taxpayer to foot the bill for their years of limited learning and heavy partying while in college. Hopefully, this burst of dimwittery should not pass muster even in our often dysfunctional Congress.

— Richard Vedder directs the Center for College Affordability and Productivity, is an adjunct scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, and teaches at Ohio University


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: college; debt; generationy; highereducation; idiots; loans; occupy; studentloans; wallstreet
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1 posted on 10/11/2011 8:19:02 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

sounds like a LOAD of crap.


2 posted on 10/11/2011 8:19:39 AM PDT by WOBBLY BOB (See ya later, debt inflator ! Gone in 4 (2012))
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To: SeekAndFind

WAHHHH! Sorry, kids, you borrowed it, you pay it back. That’s life in a free society.


3 posted on 10/11/2011 8:20:11 AM PDT by Genoa (Starve the beast.)
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To: SeekAndFind

I want my car notes and mortgage forgiven.

Isn’t it my right to have a home and a car?

(these people are spoiled rotten whiny little brats.)


4 posted on 10/11/2011 8:21:14 AM PDT by Grunthor (Heartless Bigot for Cain.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Not forgiven outright, but certainly the current bankruptcy rules that make them well nigh nondischargeable should be relaxed - it shouldn’t be harder to discharge a student loan than it is to discharge unpaid federal income taxes.


5 posted on 10/11/2011 8:21:48 AM PDT by Oceander (If you're going to "occupy" Wall Street, shouldn't you be IN Wall Street?)
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To: SeekAndFind
Yeah, and lets throw in those pesky Master Card & Visa bills, too while we're at it.

Jaysus! Is ANYONE responsible for themselves anymore?

6 posted on 10/11/2011 8:22:18 AM PDT by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I shall defend to your death my right to say it)
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To: SeekAndFind

I think they should take up their grievances with the Universities and Colleges that gave them overpriced, worthless degrees.


7 posted on 10/11/2011 8:24:16 AM PDT by rightwingintelligentsia (Be careful of believing something just because you want it to be true.)
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To: Oceander

So let me understand: If I saved for 3 decades and paid cash for my kids to go to school, giving up vacations, new cars, and all of the other things Americans find normal too bad for me: their peers who just borrowed the money from the evil banks can just not pay for it ?


8 posted on 10/11/2011 8:24:38 AM PDT by Bainbridge
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To: SeekAndFind

The great irony, of course, is that if the USA had free, state-run education as they demanded - these “occupiers” would never be able to attend university.

Places like France and China, who have “free” state run universities are hyper-competitive for very limited spots. Moreover, In France, university facilities basically look like typical run-down state housing projects. In China, “free” university now is quite expensive, as one finds one needs to pay a lot of “donations” to get the school, teachers or program one really wants.

Of course, these clowns protesting would never recognize this reality.


9 posted on 10/11/2011 8:25:22 AM PDT by PGR88 (I'm so open-minded my brains fell out)
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To: SeekAndFind

I do agree with part of the article that schools drastically raise their prices to reflect the free availability of money.

They suck these people in with utopian dreams of getting a degree and a great job.

Borrowers are responsible for their own choices, granted, but if schools were forced to live within their means you wouldn’t have public university employees pulling in six figures, etc....let them earn their money through patents and publications instead of taxpayer dollars.


10 posted on 10/11/2011 8:26:38 AM PDT by GatorGirl (Herman Cain 2012)
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To: Grunthor

I think their angle is...if the banks got a bailout why not them? After all they are “tax payers”.

And that’s where it all breaks down. They really aren’t paying their “fair Share”. Under the 999 plan everyone would pay in to the system and then I bet people would expect our government to be more frugal with our money. Those that don’t pay in, get an entitlement mentality and do stupid things like these protesters.


11 posted on 10/11/2011 8:27:09 AM PDT by for-q-clinton (If at first you don't succeed keep on sucking until you do succeed)
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To: Grunthor

I want a flying unicorn with side mounted 20mm cannons and craps skittles .


12 posted on 10/11/2011 8:27:12 AM PDT by WOBBLY BOB (See ya later, debt inflator ! Gone in 4 (2012))
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To: SeekAndFind

Universities are horribly overpriced, and student loans are largely responsible.


13 posted on 10/11/2011 8:27:19 AM PDT by MetaThought
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To: SeekAndFind

Richard Vedder makes a case that the federal student loan program is deeply flawed but the fact remains that the money was loaned and promised to be paid back. These protestors are just looking for a free ride on the backs of others. I’m sick of it.


14 posted on 10/11/2011 8:27:41 AM PDT by Jim Scott
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To: SeekAndFind

Its all about not wanting to pay for what they’ve taken. The fact that one of their top demands is to outlaw credit reporting agencies says it all.


15 posted on 10/11/2011 8:28:17 AM PDT by cripplecreek (ALCS/NLCS playoff thread http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2789907/posts)
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To: SeekAndFind
That's the one thing I am sure will NEVER happen, because it was intended to be a means for the government to turn young people into indentured slaves.

The dirty little secret is that most "financial aid" comes from overcharging non-minorities and using the excess to fund "financial aid" to Eric Holder's people.

An intended consequence of this is that non-Eric Holder's people bury themselves in student loans that are now owned by the federal government.

Get this: student loans are the ONLY debt you cannot escape through personal bankruptcy.

This means that the vast majority of kids graduating from college these days are indentured slaves to the federal government.

If you don't think Washington has plans to exploit this situation, you must be from some other planet.

16 posted on 10/11/2011 8:28:45 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum ("Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them." --Ronald Reagan)
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To: MetaThought
Universities are horribly overpriced, and student loans are largely responsible.

An not one person is forced to attend college.
17 posted on 10/11/2011 8:30:08 AM PDT by cripplecreek (ALCS/NLCS playoff thread http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2789907/posts)
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To: cripplecreek
Obama use the rising cost of health care to pass health care.

While College cost made Health Care increases look meager.

Colleges are like Government a huge sink hole of wasting money.

18 posted on 10/11/2011 8:32:03 AM PDT by scooby321
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To: MetaThought
3rd party payors - has the same effect on healthcare.

make the borrower and lender interact without gubmint middlemen and make student loans dischargeable under personal bankruptcy.

19 posted on 10/11/2011 8:32:14 AM PDT by WOBBLY BOB (See ya later, debt inflator ! Gone in 4 (2012))
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To: Bainbridge
So let me understand: If I saved for 3 decades and paid cash for my kids to go to school, giving up vacations, new cars, and all of the other things Americans find normal too bad for me: their peers who just borrowed the money from the evil banks can just not pay for it ?

Don't mischaracterize what I said. I said nothing about just borrowing the money and then not paying for it. I said that the rules limiting discharge should be no more restrictive than the rules limiting the discharge of federal income taxes, with the addition of a minimum time requirement since the repayment period started, such as 7 to 10 years.

It seems to me that is a reasonable arrangement; after all, to advert to your hypothetical, should honest but unfortunate individuals who are drowning in unpaid income taxes not be given a bankruptcy discharge simply because you were more prudent and managed to pay your income taxes on time?
20 posted on 10/11/2011 8:34:28 AM PDT by Oceander (If you're going to "occupy" Wall Street, shouldn't you be IN Wall Street?)
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To: Oceander
I think you are wrong. A student loan isn't something someone has to have - they chose to. They chose to go to school instead of another path. It is a luxury.

And it is simple to almost go for free - don't begin college right after high school - work for a few years, move out - get a subsidy for housing, possibly food stamps and qualify for a pell grant and other need based scholarships. If that fails, claim you can't find a job and apply for "Income Based Repayment" - you can work as a community organizer and pay as little as $50 a month on your $150,000 loan and it is considered repaid in full after 20 years. In other words, you and I are giving them almost a completely free ride and they are still whining.

21 posted on 10/11/2011 8:34:59 AM PDT by WhyisaTexasgirlinPA
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To: SeekAndFind

I guess I was stupid to find a job, work hard and pay my student loans back.

I hope these whiners get a dose of reality soon.


22 posted on 10/11/2011 8:36:42 AM PDT by Gabrial
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To: MetaThought
Universities are horribly overpriced, and student loans are largely responsible.

these morons should be protesting against "big eductaion" - there is no legitimate corporation that could of scammed them into taking out 6-figure loans for semi-worthless degrees.

23 posted on 10/11/2011 8:37:00 AM PDT by ghost of nixon
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To: rightwingintelligentsia
Exactly right. You students were sold an inferior product at a premium price for which there is no market. This is a classic case of fraud and deceptive practices, I'd say.

The problem is that those that are the most harmed are too stupid to realize what has happened to them. They wander about like huge grass-eating dinosaurs, navel-gazing mindlessly. And like the multi-ton, 80-foot herbivore Brontosaurus, they have brains the size of walnuts. They are so dumb that, even when the body experiences physical death, it takes 20 minutes for the walnut sized brain to realize it.

24 posted on 10/11/2011 8:37:14 AM PDT by MasterGunner01 (To err is human; to forgive is not our policy. -- SEAL Team SIX)
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To: rightwingintelligentsia
I think they should take up their grievances with the Universities and Colleges that gave them overpriced, worthless degrees.

I would also take to task the ineptness (or outright predatory malpractices) of the academic advisors that gleefully allow student to burden themselves with debt for majors they are not suited for or even if they could be the best in their field they'd never find any jobs, 'green' comes to mind.

25 posted on 10/11/2011 8:37:34 AM PDT by Calusa (The pump don't work cause the vandals took the handles. Quoth Bob Dylan.)
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To: SeekAndFind
Yes, this is an absurd demand.

But on the other hand many trillions have been handed out to people, companies, and even foreign central banks who are equally undeserving of the money.

The likes of Henry Paulson, Ben Bernake, and Timothy Geitner are still in their jobs sitting pretty, while knowing full well they've put us in a mighty bad position. Is that ethical? Is that proper? I think not.

None of this should have been done in the first place - but since it has, on what basis will the gov’t say ‘no’?

26 posted on 10/11/2011 8:37:43 AM PDT by MichaelCorleone (Doesn't anyone love liberty anymore?)
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To: cripplecreek

And not one person was forced to buy a house at the peak of the bubble. Yet many people did, and now there’s a big problem, regardless of whether it was a good idea to begin with.


27 posted on 10/11/2011 8:38:03 AM PDT by MetaThought
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To: SeekAndFind
Here we go again: OBAMA MONEY....FROM HIS STASH (see tagline)

These clueless asses somehow figure they are ENTITLED to other people's money, and it should be HANDED TO THEM, just for showing up.

NO ONE forced them to go to school if they couldn't afford it, Major in "Diversity Studies", or "Minority Feminine Studies", or "Marxism for Fun and Profit" studies......Liberal-indoctrinated parasites do NOT represent Americans.

28 posted on 10/11/2011 8:38:14 AM PDT by traditional1 ("Don't gotsta worry 'bout no mo'gage, don't gotsta worry 'bout no gas; Obama gonna take care o' me!)
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To: PGR88

In China, they have to pay “donations” to attend the free university??? Oh my gosh........Is Chairman Mao turning in his grave?????? This is happening in a worker’s paradise??????????


29 posted on 10/11/2011 8:38:26 AM PDT by Dilbert San Diego
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To: Jim Scott

I know it’s a novel concept, but I got through college by working summers at the mill.

Got through graduate school on the GI bill.

Maybe they should try that route instead!


30 posted on 10/11/2011 8:39:28 AM PDT by catman67
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To: Oceander
If nothing else, the demand for student loan forgiveness is a rather comic unintended consequence of bailing out the banking sector and two of the three domestic auto makers.

Rather naturally, individuals begin asking where their bail outs are for bad decisions, or even decisions that looked good at the time of better general economic conditions, and since public funds were being used to save executives and political donors from the actual consequences of their mistakes, they too look for "theirs."

I am not saying the fleabags are right, only that this harebrained sentiment of theirs is rooted in seeing the "painless" and intellectually bankrupt sector wide bailouts of 2008-2009.
31 posted on 10/11/2011 8:40:36 AM PDT by Goldsborough
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To: SeekAndFind

Why do you think Obama took over and put the Feds in direct control of student loans?

If next September comes and he is down double-digits in the polls, I guaran-damed-tee you that he’ll float a Student Loan Forgiveness scheme and the young skulls o’ mush will come flocking to the ballot boxes for him.


32 posted on 10/11/2011 8:42:38 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: SeekAndFind

Student loans should be abolished

The worst thing to happen to higher education PERIOD

All they did was allow colleges to jack up tuitions far above inflation rates and expand by offering BS courses that do NOTHING to prepare for any kind of job


33 posted on 10/11/2011 8:43:16 AM PDT by uncbob
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To: SeekAndFind
Instead of protesting student loans my kids are going to community colleges on scholarships and part-time jobs and to top it off their stupid parents will have their mortgage paid off in two years on a house that they could afford the payments on. Just call us the dummies on the block.
34 posted on 10/11/2011 8:43:31 AM PDT by ladyvet ( I would rather have Incitatus then the asses that are in congress today.)
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To: Gabrial

Same here. I paid on `em for about ten years, balance never seemed to budge, so I took out a home equity loan and finally paid them off.
Most of these kids can write off the interest, thanks to President Beelzebubba—if they had the income, which they don’t because they’re screwing off at demonstrations!
I had a long series of low-paying, dirty, menial jobs for many years. I have no sympathy for these kids. Nothing worthwhile is ever given to you, as they seem to think.
“Get a job you young hobos!” Grandpa Simpson
Rant ............. over


35 posted on 10/11/2011 8:43:31 AM PDT by tumblindice (Don't Tread On Me)
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To: scooby321

American would be a lot better off with a lot less college graduates of the wrong kind. We need more hard sciences and less liberal arts.

We’re pumping out attorneys, social workers and teachers at an astounding rate and they all want top dollar as they promote making even more copies of themselves.

A couple weeks back I saw a social worker on the news complaining that the poor were being cleansed from Michigan and if it keeps up she’ll lose her job. If little miss social worker really cared about the poor, she would look forward to the day when she could walk away from her job.


36 posted on 10/11/2011 8:44:30 AM PDT by cripplecreek (ALCS/NLCS playoff thread http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2789907/posts)
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To: ladyvet

true to the Steven Lerner/Cloward and Piven plan, they are organizing a student debt cartel.

http://www.forgivestudentloandebt.com/node


37 posted on 10/11/2011 8:46:44 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: SeekAndFind

I don’t suppose any of the idiots would consider the Military College Loan Repayment Program. Because then they would have to work for a living.


38 posted on 10/11/2011 8:46:57 AM PDT by Bob Buchholz
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To: Buckeye McFrog

This was a planned organizing technique of Democrat Party.

In WA state the Democrat legislators went further, they made tuition increases and budget cuts, the job of the individual institutions, insulating the Democrats who are in control, from the fall out, claiming that the Republicans have tied their hands by requiring a voter referendum for tax increases.


39 posted on 10/11/2011 8:47:04 AM PDT by Eva
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To: SeekAndFind

We need to get past the idea that “everyone” needs to attend college. That’s one reason we have dopes with $50k in student loans with a degree in “Gender Studies”.


40 posted on 10/11/2011 8:47:58 AM PDT by PogySailor (Obama is a SCOAMF)
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To: SeekAndFind

Once all those outstanding student loans are “forgiven” (by who?) the unintended consequences are going to be a bear.

All students will expect free college.

After all that time college liberals have spent, building ever-escalating tuition costs to pay for their tenure-protected social engineering political jobs.

Liberal rock. Meet liberal hard space.


41 posted on 10/11/2011 8:48:13 AM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network
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To: uncbob

I agree, we should remove all taxpayer money from colleges. Those who can afford the tuition will attend and those who can’t afford it won’t or they’ll find a way to pay.

If philanthropists and corporations want to offer scholarships to top students, more power to them.


42 posted on 10/11/2011 8:48:36 AM PDT by cripplecreek (ALCS/NLCS playoff thread http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2789907/posts)
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To: SeekAndFind

I paid mine back one payment at a time while very underemployed too. But... I wasn’t stupid enough to borrow $75K either.


43 posted on 10/11/2011 8:48:55 AM PDT by NeverForgetBataan (To the German Commander -- ..........................NUTS !)
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To: SeekAndFind

We have seen this in London and other socialist countries, too. It’s all a ploy of the community organizers to keep the unemployed, non-tax paying students involved along with the government union workers.

Gi’me, Gi’me, Gi’me!


44 posted on 10/11/2011 8:49:44 AM PDT by Eva
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To: WhyisaTexasgirlinPA
Then treat it like credit card debt - you don't have to have that, and it's even easier to discharge credit card debt than it is income tax debt. Or treat it like business debt, which is also easier to discharge than income tax debt. Or treat it like mortgage debt, which is easier to discharge than income tax debt.

The argument that it should not be dischargeable in a manner similar to how all of these other debts can be discharged simply doesn't hold water.
45 posted on 10/11/2011 8:50:09 AM PDT by Oceander (If you're going to "occupy" Wall Street, shouldn't you be IN Wall Street?)
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To: WOBBLY BOB; tx_eggman
I want a flying unicorn with side mounted 20mm cannons and craps skittles .

Tx_Eggman may have one for sale.
46 posted on 10/11/2011 8:51:28 AM PDT by SpinnerWebb (In 2012 you will awaken from your HOPEnosis and have no recollection of this... "Constitution")
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To: SeekAndFind

A lot of unemployed college graduates goin on out thar.


47 posted on 10/11/2011 8:52:38 AM PDT by ex-snook ("above all things, truth beareth away the victory")
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To: Oceander

” it shouldn’t be harder to discharge a student loan than it is to discharge unpaid federal income taxes.”

What country do you live in? Bankruptcy never discharges taxes. The bankruptcy laws are very clear on that.

The IRS will get their money bankrupt or not.


48 posted on 10/11/2011 8:55:09 AM PDT by bbernard
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To: PogySailor
We need to get past the idea that “everyone” needs to attend college.

I would have been a horrible student and flunked out. Instead, I went to work and over the years I've taken various individual courses as needed for work or personal interest. Only one class was ever paid for by anyone but me. The company I worked for paid for a computer course I needed for programing the robotics I worked with.
49 posted on 10/11/2011 8:55:16 AM PDT by cripplecreek (ALCS/NLCS playoff thread http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2789907/posts)
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To: SeekAndFind

Ah yes... the gimme gimme gimme crowd. Unfortunately, they are everywhere in America, from the “give me free education” class, to those who don’t give a damn that social security is going to bankrupt this country.


50 posted on 10/11/2011 8:56:09 AM PDT by zeugma (Those of us who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.)
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